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Thread: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

  1. #1
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Wow. Think this was part of the thought process?

    http://bkref.com/tiny/Zn48C
    Last edited by Anthem; 07-14-2012 at 07:54 PM.
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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Definitely says something about the "The starters are the problem" meme.
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Good stuff. Granted this is just one series, so I wouldn't read a ton into it.

    That said it is pretty obvious the bench needs to be improved.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Wow. Think this was part of the thought process?

    http://bkref.com/tiny/Zn48C
    Yeah some relevance, everyone could see Barbosa was killing us when he was in the game, not only was his shot not going down, but he was playing horrible defense against Wade, also a lot of our bench was in when Barbosa was in so that also alters the stats for them a little as well.
    Why so SERIOUS

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Those numbers would mean getting Brand or Scola would have also helped quite a bit, as West was the glaring issue on the starting unit.
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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Good stuff. Granted this is just one series, so I wouldn't read a ton into it.
    Here's both rounds 1 and 2... Magic and Heat. I had it hide everybody who played 12 or fewer minutes, so Lance/AJ/Penderwall are out.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/ZXBIo

    Pretty striking.
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Link not working for me, whats it say?

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Wow. Think this was part of the thought process?

    http://bkref.com/tiny/Zn48C
    I thought Hollibags over at ESPN said DC had the HIGHEST playoff per average of PG's
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Man, every game in the Heat series I'd just about go crazy when Vogel would put Lou, Hans, and Barbosa in to finish the first quarter/start the second. It killed the team every single game.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I thought Hollibags over at ESPN said DC had the HIGHEST playoff per average of PG's
    Have you seen Chad Ford's off season grades for the Pacers? He writes more about the team than any other team in the league, but it mostly is about overpaying for players and bad moves on the bench.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    To show that it's not just a simple matter of LeBron outclassing anybody's bench, here are the numbers for both Boston and Oklahoma City versus Miami:

    Boston:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...er_by=diff_pts

    And Oklahoma City:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...er_by=diff_pts

    As you can see, the Pacers numbers are dramatically different from the Celtics or the Thunder. Neither the Celtics or the Thunder had their starters have anywhere near the success the Pacers did. And it's not like the Pacers bench played a ton of minutes in that series either. They were just giving up leads so fast the starters couldn't recover.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Link not working for me, whats it say?
    Four Pacers starters ended up with positive plus minus for the series including three of them with +20 or better (Hibbert, George, and Hill). West was the only negative, and he was -2. The bench players were all negative, and the two bench players who played over 80 minutes in the series (Collison and Barbosa) had a -65 and a -70.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    To show that it's not just a simple matter of LeBron outclassing anybody's bench, here are the numbers for both Boston and Oklahoma City versus Miami:

    Boston:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...er_by=diff_pts

    And Oklahoma City:

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...er_by=diff_pts

    As you can see, the Pacers numbers are dramatically different from the Celtics or the Thunder. Neither the Celtics or the Thunder had their starters have anywhere near the success the Pacers did. And it's not like the Pacers bench played a ton of minutes in that series either. They were just giving up leads so fast the starters couldn't recover.
    Nice work! Post more often.
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Link not working for me, whats it say?
    Weird, now it's not working for me either. It worked when I posted it.

    Here, try it for yourself.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...nus_finder.cgi
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by pezasied182 View Post
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    Have you seen Chad Ford's off season grades for the Pacers? He writes more about the team than any other team in the league, but it mostly is about overpaying for players and bad moves on the bench.
    What was the grade?

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Yeah, links not working for me, but I'm guessing it shows that our bench was pretty much astronomically bad, which anyone with a pair of working eyes should have figured out from the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    What was the grade?
    I'll post the Pacer's analysis. He surprisingly gave the team a B-, so not horrible by any means.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad ford
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    INDIANA PACERS
    Key additions: Roy Hibbert (re-sign), George Hill (re-sign); D.J. Augustin(FA), Gerald Green (FA), Ian Mahinmi (sign-and-trade), Miles Plumlee(draft), Orlando Johnson (draft), Donnie Walsh (team president), Kevin Pritchard (GM) Key subtractions: Darren Collison, Dahntay Jones, Larry Bird (team president), David Morway (GM)
    After experiencing a level of success that even they couldn't have predicted last season, the Pacers goal this offseason was to bring back their starting five and strengthen their bench. The Pacers achieved their first goal. The team was hit with a huge four-year, $58 million offer sheet from the Blazers for Hibbert on July 1. Hibbert has been a key part of the rebuild, but virtually everyone agrees that $58 million is a lot for him. The Pacers wisely agreed to pay Hibbert, but it cost them. In the meantime, the team overreacted a bit and threw a whopping $40 million at Hill. I'm a Hill fan and think he's still got upside, but again, the contract seemed a tad excessive.

    Whether they achieved the second goal is debatable. The decision to trade away Collison (who led the team in playoff PER) for the right to give $16 million to Mahinmi is a head-scratcher. Considering the Pacers could've re-signed Mahinmi straight up (he was an unrestricted free agent) for probably half the cost (Mahinmi wasn't getting two years, $8 million from anyone else) -- it's completely unclear why they had to give away Collison to do it. Did they really need to get Jones' $2.9 million off the books that badly? Mahinmi does give the Pacers a credible backup 5 when Hibbert is out of the game. But the cost (both in dollars and lost assets) was unusually high. The Pacers quickly countered Collison's loss by signing Augustin to a one-year, $3.5 million deal. Collison was statistically superior to Augustin by virtually every metric but one -- pure point guard rating. Augustin is a better passer than Collison and that is a need for the Pacers. Hill isn't a pure point guard and Augustin's specialty is getting everyone involved. But when you factor in that Augustin can't guard anyone and that they're paying him $1.3 million more than they were Collison, I'm not sure this is an upgrade. Green is, offensively, an upgrade over Jones. He put up some big numbers for the fledgling Nets last year. However he lacks the defensive toughness or maturity that Jones brought to the table. Finally, the Pacers' draft night call on Plumlee also felt a little off. Plumlee had wowed scouts (and apparently Bird) in workouts with his freakish athletic ability. But he rarely showed it during his four years at Duke. Workout wonders infiltrate the first round virtually ever year. They rarely pan out. None of these smaller moves should keep the Pacers from being a Top 4 team in the East. But the difference between good teams and great teams often is in the details and the Pacers, for the first time in a while, seemed to smudge them this summer. GRADE: B-
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Here's both rounds 1 and 2... Magic and Heat. I had it hide everybody who played 12 or fewer minutes, so Lance/AJ/Penderwall are out.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/ZXBIo

    Pretty striking.
    I get it. Our bench stinks. That said, I am not sure about Vogel putting them all in at one time for the most part. That certainly did not help the cause.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Those numbers would mean getting Brand or Scola would have also helped quite a bit, as West was the glaring issue on the starting unit.
    His #'s look much more in line with the other starters versus Orlando, and why would I assume Brand or Scola is better than West? I don't. They're all close, I suppose.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    I'm admittedly stupid to the situation because I didn't read the link but some things are obvious.

    A) Lou Amundson shot 43.0% on the season. Ewwwwww. Mahinimi, check out his percentage.

    B) Tyler Hansbrough is a black hole. He'll pass 1 out of every 10 times he gets the ball. I'm glad he believes he's a winner but damn.... it just looks selfish when you don't improve. He's amazing at drawing fouls but he's a poor rebounder that's a ballhog.

    I'm not trying to hate on our players. I like Amundson and Hansbrough but liking them doesn't change the fact that they're terrible for big men as far as scoring. They don't even have to score but don't waste possessions. That's all I'm saying.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?


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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I imagine part of the problem with West's # is he spends some of his time as a backup C playing with Tyler.
    Yup, which is reflected in the minutes played. West played 24.7 more minutes than Hibbert in the series, which almost perfectly corresponds to Lou and Tyler's playing time (Tyler played 20.8 minutes more than Lou did).

    The Pacers 5 bench players in the rotation (Collison, Barbosa, Hansbrough, Amundson, Jones) played 405.4 minutes in the series. They were a combined -254 plus/minus.

    To think about it another way, if the whole team had played at the pace the bench did the Pacers would have lost by 30.07 points per game.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Definitely says something about the "The starters are the problem" meme.
    When I was making this argument right after the Heat series, a certain poster told me that it was still the starters problem, because they didn't outscore the Heat by enough to make up for the bench play...

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    This had been an issue all season, by most metrics our starters were really good. Our bench has been crap.

    When people said we had good depth that was a misnomer, we had good 'balance". There is a difference. Hopefully with the roster additions we can now say we have depth as well.
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Really is a shame we couldn't trade Hansborough for Augustin, then use the money to sign Brand or Scola. Psycho T is going to have to shape up

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