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Thread: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

  1. #76
    Professional Beachcomber mildlysane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Sorry, but some of us are optimists that grow real tired off the over the top criticism of the team our FO has assembled, without seeing them play one single second together. If I posted an all-sunshine thread EVERY TIME we made a move, I would be called all kinds of names. My position is that the OP posted not his feelings, but for provocation, and is supported by a few posters who may or may not be the same person. If this post is incorrect or over the top in itself, then I apologize. However, can you at least give them a game or two together before you start calling for people's jobs or for the owner to "sale" the team? How is that not trolling? Can someone start an all-negative thread, so those who view these moves as positive can skip THAT thread. As it is now, every freaking thread is just about all negative and that is a bit tiring.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    I am not only talking about this thread, but just an attitude here as of late. We are all friends. We are all fellow Pacers fans. Lord knows we should be able to disagree without name calling or belittling each other
    Shut your face and stay out of it Bossy.




    CIVFAIL w00t

    (hey, after my Tyler rant in the DJ thread I figured my civility card was already revoked, so this is what you call turning into the skid...plus I have an unofficial title of Most Offensive Poster to reclaim because I really wasn't douchey enough last year)
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    Member WhoLovesYaBaby?'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    As a lifetime Yankee fan I can tell you I 100% agree. Best money Yanks spent in my lifetime were building, developing and keeping their own farm talent - Jeter, Rivera, Bernie, Pettite, Posada - and then picking up good deals in FA or trades, like "losing" the Roberto Kelly for Paul O'Neil deal or signing the very old Wade Boggs or the not impressive Scott Brosius.

    When the Yanks went back to nuts on any FA they could find they signed dudes like Clemens, Mussina, ARod, Giambi, or an old school miss like Tartabull. Stat stuffers who aren't clutch, way overpaid, horrible chemistry types. The only high profile guys I can recall them getting and working out are CC, Teixeira and Granderson now and Cone in the 90s.




    Rich teams get overconfident with money and do really stupid stuff. Just ask the Knicks.
    I'm a lifelong Cubs fan. And I wish they would model the Yanks for just one year!

  6. #79
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Bottonline on the trades and signings is this. I think if you are extremely excited you are going too far. if you are really upset I think that is too far the other way. We did not give up any player who was a starter or someone who was going to be in our longterm plan. So I don't see how anyone could be really upset with who we are giving up. But then again if you are jumping up and down for joy because of the three new players I think you are geting way too excited.

    So if you take out each extreme I think all other opinions are very defensible. I think overall and taken as a whole these are good moves. They will make the pacers marginally better. That is all you can hope for on these types of moves.

    The much more impactful moves are the re-signing of 40% of our starting unit - Roy and George Hill.
    I'm not fully sure why I am so happy with the moves, but I'll make an attempt.

    While we did not acquire a big star or a scoring machine (and, in fairness, this is difficult for us), we did seem to acquire the kind of talent we needed and we seem to be saying goodbye to players that are not the answer.

    DC: He's clearly been a problem for a long time, both as a defender and as a distributor. Bird did not solve the problem last summer, and it took Vogel too long to fix it during the season. New management solved the problem of dealing DC as well as finding a possible solid to much better replacement.

    Hansbrough: Clearly not a solution, arguably a real problem. Bird can't seem to give up on this project. It looks like new management is finding better solutions (both Ian and Plumlee).

    I've been arguing for a while that we have to take some risks, some swings and misses, to get what we need as a small market. They didn't take any big swings this summer but they did make the kind of risky moves we need to make that give the chance of a large upside. I think Ian and OJ both have potentially high upsides. Green has a bit of potential as well.

    For me, I guess DC and Hansbrough have been the biggest thorns in my side, so I like the moves. Also, we desperately need a distributor and I think Augustin and keeping Lance in the wings are both signs that TPTB are thinking the same way. Walsh has always made good distributors a priority (Mark Jackson, Tinsley) while Bird has been horribly negligent in that area, imo.

    So I like the moves, and think they portend to better strategic thinking down the road.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by pezasied182 View Post
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    I don't care what anyone else says, this team as it is constructed now, gets passed Miami in that last playoff series. Yes, Bosh was hurt, but the bench killed the team time and time again. LeBron and Wade would find it much harder to drive in on Plumlee and Mahinmi than Hans and Lou, and just about anyone can provide better D than Barbosa.

    EDIT: I do not think the transactions make the team "a contender" though, but I do think they're a little better than they were last year.
    Please..... The Pacers have no stars. They have very few top 50 players. Bosh and Wade could have missed that series and James would have just played a little harder and a little better to send the Pacers packing. If Bosh, James and Wade had been injured and the Pacers won, they would have lost quickly to Boston. Don't let your dreams get in the way of some reality or this team is going to back slide and battle for the last playoff spot. I like the moves but we are only keeping pace or losing a little to some teams........

  9. #81
    Indiana Pacers Forever Pacer Fan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steagles View Post
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    If you can't handle a small market team putting together cast offs from other teams then you need to go like the Lakers.
    but..but..but, the Lakers have 3 Pacers cast offs on there team.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Member ilive4sports's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    also, the title really bothers me. can someone please fix it to "sell the team"

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  13. #83
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    also, the title really bothers me. can someone please fix it to "sell the team"
    Why? It should be left that way just to show how far out and not very bright that poster really is..........

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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    but..but..but, the Lakers have 3 Pacers cast offs on there team.
    I am very glad that they took one of them. We were never going to win with that player being involved in my opinion...... The most overrated Pacers in history, McBob......

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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reginald View Post
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    You do realize you started your post on lateral moves by calling people clueless homers, right? If you don't like being called names, then practice what you preach.
    I didn't mean I care if they call me names, I just don't like them calling someone else names. You are right I apologize, I should practice what I preach. I let my emotions take over. I have been known to do that sometimes, OK well most of the times. I am really not that bad of a guy.

  16. #86
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFreak31 View Post
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    I am not sure who is to blame for all the blunders this off season . . .
    Who's to blame . . . the problem is your opinion.

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    It doesn't make you anymore of a fan than any of us.
    Actually it does. He's a fan of THIS team, you're not. You don't like the moves that have been made, so he IS more of a fan than you are.

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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    The Pacers were a good team last year, and by all indications, should be a good team this year. When it became evident that Nash wasn't coming here, I'm not sure what people were expecting. We emptied our wallet to retain Hibbert, and even if we had made an offer to Gordon, New Orleans still matches it.

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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Actually it does. He's a fan of THIS team, you're not. You don't like the moves that have been made, so he IS more of a fan than you are.
    That could not be any more stupid. Do you like every move the team makes? Blind loyalty just makes you blind.

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  21. #90
    Pacers Freak Malakai432's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    How do you "sale the team," to me this doesn't make much sense right?
    What Lebron James should've said after the loss to the Mavs!
    What should I do? Should I admit I’d made mistakes? Should I remind you I’ve done this before? What should I do? Should I just sell shoes?

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    Member jdw's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    That could not be any more stupid. Do you like every move the team makes? Blind loyalty just makes you blind.
    No, blind loyalty makes you a fan. See Cubs, Chicago, Notre Dame University.....

    More seriously, people invest time and emotion into 'their' teams. If you remain constantly negative, expect to get some grief.

  23. #92
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Actually it does. He's a fan of THIS team, you're not. You don't like the moves that have been made, so he IS more of a fan than you are.
    Come on Will...

    That is taking word games a little far in my opinion. I'm not a fan of these moves either does that make me less of a Pacer fan?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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  25. #93
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Regardless of what has happened the last few days. Look at how far this team has come. It did get a little better with these adjustments. We did get to the second round and were a legitimate playoff team. We will be better next year and much better in about 3 years when the bulk of our team are entering their prime years. We may even contend. Given the fact this is the middle of Indiana and not one of the giant destinations...I doubt you can expect more without being unrealistic.

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    future dragon trainer Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Sure, some big sexy moves would have been nice (or disastrous, just like ANY move), I just don't get why so many seem to be of the opinion that the starting unit just is what it is. The only ones I think we've seen undoubtedly peak are Danny and West. There's obviously varying degrees of growth to be had by Roy, PG, and Hill but people just seemingly don't even consider two 25 year olds and a 22 year can actually get better.

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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    I like our moves that we have made. They may have not been the flashy or the sexiest moves, but I think it makes us stronger as a team. We got more athletic and younger. I know that I am in the minority but I liked the Plumlee pick at 26. It is very rare to get an impact player at that stage of the draft and I think he will become a servicable big to be in the rotation. The only player that I wished we would not have traded was Dahntay. I do feel that GG will take over some of the needs on the court that Dahntay did, and I think our veterans will need to pick up the slack in the leading our team and being mentors for our young guys. I am not jumping up and down in a frenzy or anything but I am positive with our moves that have been made.

  30. #96
    Member ilive4sports's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Sure, some big sexy moves would have been nice (or disastrous, just like ANY move), I just don't get why so many seem to be of the opinion that the starting unit just is what it is. The only ones I think we've seen undoubtedly peak are Danny and West. There's obviously varying degrees of growth to be had by Roy, PG, and Hill but people just seemingly don't even consider two 25 year olds and a 22 year can actually get better.
    pfft Paul George isn't going to get any better. kid has no potential!

  31. #97
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Sure, some big sexy moves would have been nice (or disastrous, just like ANY move), I just don't get why so many seem to be of the opinion that the starting unit just is what it is. The only ones I think we've seen undoubtedly peak are Danny and West. There's obviously varying degrees of growth to be had by Roy, PG, and Hill but people just seemingly don't even consider two 25 year olds and a 22 year can actually get better.
    Nash winning MVP's at like the age of 31/32 and Nowitzki winning a championship at 33 gives me a little hope that Granger isn't completely done improving since he just turned 29. Although at 29, what we've seen is probably what we're going to get. Hopefully his shooting percentage goes back up at least.

    David West though, he may not have peaked... in a sense. Since he was coming off an ACL tear, he could potentially be better a year removed. I thought he was looking better at the end of last season. He was popping shots and even better, he looked great attacking the basket and banging down low. I'll take what he gave us last year but it would be pretty cool if the ACL affected his play and he'll be even better this season.

    And as you said, everyone else is young and still have time to improve. Hibbert, Hill, George, Stephenson, Augustin, Mahinimi, Plumlee, Orlando. Hansbrough's probably done. He could still raise his field goal percentage though which would be much appreciated.
    Last edited by TOP; 07-14-2012 at 01:00 AM.

  32. #98
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by WhoLovesYaBaby? View Post
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    I'm a lifelong Cubs fan. And I wish they would model the Yanks for just one year!
    But the thing is, they have had moments of spending that didn't end up working out.

    Just throwing money at problems isn't just a sport business failure either, plenty of companies overlook the value of actually knowing what they're doing before spending. Bottom line, money spent vs wins is not a linear relationship. There are slight trends but often it has as much to do with keeping your own guys. And as a Yanks fan I'll admit that a big benefit the 90's team had was that they could afford to pay to keep their core together. That was smart spending. At the same time Baltimore and LA put together very expensive flops.



    One thing with the Pacers payroll, and I was someone making the case that the Hibby deal was a tough call, is that there should be a benefit to keeping the same core locker room together. If Danny, Roy, Paul, George and West interact well and obviously are the talent leaders, and they are the long term guys there with everyone else being relatively new additions, then you get the CULTURE BENEFIT from your spending. I don't know what the price on that is, but it's definitely worth spending some money on. For this reason I really want them to resign West after this season, barring some disaster.

    The 98 roster was so in tune with each other, and the base culture was so strong that they easily supported the addition of guys like Jalen, Harrington and Bender. That was the primary factor in the whole being greater than the sum. I'd like to think that 2-3 years from now the high level of familiarity among this core will be a huge factor in their quality of play.

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  34. #99
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    Do you like every move the team makes? Blind loyalty just makes you blind.
    No, I don't like every move the front office makes, but I don't have a fit about it either and moan and groan. I take a wait and see attitude. You see unlike a lot of posters on here, I know the front office knows more than I do.

    NBA front offices have certain constraints they are under that we fans know little to nothing about. Plus they have way more information than we do. Not only have the same stats we do but they have players scouted, so they have scouting reports and if necessarily they can talk to the actual scouts. They also do background reports on players and know if they have character issues, plus they have the actual numbers on contracts, etc.

    NBA front offices spend hours before making informed decisions, whereas uninformed fans take mere seconds to decide they should have did things THEIR way. And a lot of the time it wasn't even possible to do it the fans way.

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    Default Re: Either the front office needs to go or the owner needs to sale the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    No, I don't like every move the front office makes, but I don't have a fit about it either and moan and groan. I take a wait and see attitude. You see unlike a lot of posters on here, I know the front office knows more than I do.

    NBA front offices have certain constraints they are under that we fans know little to nothing about. Plus they have way more information than we do. Not only have the same stats we do but they have players scouted, so they have scouting reports and if necessarily they can talk to the actual scouts. They also do background reports on players and know if they have character issues, plus they have the actual numbers on contracts, etc.

    NBA front offices spend hours before making informed decisions, whereas uninformed fans take mere seconds to decide they should have did things THEIR way. And a lot of the time it wasn't even possible to do it the fans way.
    In most cases this should be true. But judging some of the draft picks, trades and signings Michael Jordan has made, I'm not sure you and other fans couldn't build a better team. You could probably throw darts at potential draft picks/free agents and come up with a better team. From drafting Kwame Brown to building a team that had the worst season ever. And Michael Jordan is even the greatest player ever! Yikes.


    I'm just messing around. But MJ does seem to make a lot of terrible decisions. I would like to believe there are fans out there that could at least do better than building a team that finishes with worst winning percentage ever in a season.

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