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Thread: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    With time now for decent reflection, I'm interested to hear the answers.
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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    No, we recovered and won Game 2 there. Losing Game 3 was what lost us the series. We threw away home court, and I blame the stupid checkered flag thing.

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    The Pacers would've probably lost game 2 by 15+ points if they had won game 1. I never would've thought they had a chance at winning both the initial games in Miami.

    Oh and to argue, I don't know that Hibbert would've made the difference, the Pacers still easily could've lost on the final possession.
    Last edited by Cactus Jax; 07-25-2013 at 05:57 PM.
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

    ----------------- Reggie Miller

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    Short answer, no.

    Long answer, probably not.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    No, we recovered and won Game 2 there. Losing Game 3 was what lost us the series. We threw away home court, and I blame the stupid checkered flag thing.
    I agree on game 3 costing the series, and I hated that checkered flag thing, it separated the crowd out instead of uniting them together which is the point. If the Indy 500 happens again at home, make a yellow shirt, and put a flag on it or something w/ Indy 500 on it. Should be at the point now where every home playoff game is a "Gold Out".
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

    ----------------- Reggie Miller

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    I'll take a different approach here than others who have answered, and say it may well have. The final shot the Heat wound up with was a gimme. If Roy is protecting the rim, whatever shot they take is going to be more difficult. But, in the end, we will never really know. So, no reason to lose sleep. To be clear, I don't hold Vogel's decision against him. He is learning and growing, the same as the whole team is learning and growing.

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    Bosh would have dragged Hibbert away from the basket anyway.

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    If that play was all that was changed then the answer would be yes. But if you went back in time and the Pacers won the first game, then we would be back to not knowing what tomorrow would bring.

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?
    I don't know but I sure hate that we have to ask that question and forever wonder.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersalltheway10 View Post
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    Bosh would have dragged Hibbert away from the basket anyway.
    With only a couple of ticks left on the clock Roy could've stayed glued to the paint. I'll take my chances that Lebron could make a decision, pass the ball to Bosh, Bosh have time to shoot the ball, AND make the shot over Lebron dribbling to the promised land unencumbered for a layup.

    IOW, I'd rather lose on a jump shot than a layup, and especially a Lebron layup that you know had to be their dream scenario.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    If that play was all that was changed then the answer would be yes. But if you went back in time and the Pacers won the first game, then we would be back to not knowing what tomorrow would bring.
    It depends on your time machine rules. Are we talking "Back to the Future" rules or "12 Monkeys" rules?

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    No

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    It's kinda like the opposite of that Durant/Wade Gatorade (Powerade?) commercial.... only in this one it's Lebron and Hibbert and Lebron wakes happy and content because Hibbert is on the bench. And Hibbert awakes frustrated because he got to watch Lebron go to the basket and there was nothing Hibbert could do about it. Talk about a nightmare scenario.....
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    let's add this to the question; game 1 heat win; game 2 Pacers; game 3 Heat ; Game 4 Pacers, Game 5 Heat; Game 6 Pacers; Game 7 Heat
    let's say hibbert re-routes LeBron and a shot comes, that has no more then 40% chance, so let's say it does not fall yet we remain our 1 - 1 rythm;

    game 1 pacers win; 2 heat; 3 pacers; 4 heat; 5 Pacers; 6 heat; 7 pacers? in that scenario pacers have game 4 and 6 to force the issue and if the rythm is maintained (no team won 2 in a row) we win
    Now we had to win 3 in row or 2 in a row twice (break them twice) to "win"

    food for thought?
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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    If that play was all that was changed then the answer would be yes. But if you went back in time and the Pacers won the first game, then we would be back to not knowing what tomorrow would bring.
    If Hibbert's in the game, then Ray or Bosh get a wide open jump shot. Do they miss?

    The only thing that changes is that Lebron doesn't get a wide open layup. Nothing else.
    Personally, I don't think we win game 7 in Miami. This team just wasn't ready.

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    let's add this to the question; game 1 heat win; game 2 Pacers; game 3 Heat ; Game 4 Pacers, Game 5 Heat; Game 6 Pacers; Game 7 Heat
    let's say hibbert re-routes LeBron and a shot comes, that has no more then 40% chance, so let's say it does not fall yet we remain our 1 - 1 rythm;

    game 1 pacers win; 2 heat; 3 pacers; 4 heat; 5 Pacers; 6 heat; 7 pacers? in that scenario pacers have game 4 and 6 to force the issue and if the rythm is maintained (no team won 2 in a row) we win
    Now we had to win 3 in row or 2 in a row twice (break them twice) to "win"

    food for thought?
    No, because the wild card in that scenario is that we would have had to win 3 out of 4 games IN MIAMI. Our road record wasn't 75% against worse teams than the Heat during the regular season, so I don't see that happening at all.

    I believe in a series that tight the home court advantage for the last game was golden. Had we won both games at home, we have home court for a potential final game in game 6, and then MAYBE we'd have been good. However, I maintain no team was going to win two in a row in that series.
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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    If Hibbert's in the game, then Ray or Bosh get a wide open jump shot. Do they miss?

    The only thing that changes is that Lebron doesn't get a wide open layup. Nothing else.
    Personally, I don't think we win game 7 in Miami. This team just wasn't ready.
    One could argue that game 7 was just one of those "not your night" things.

    We should have won that game, I believe we are a far superior TEAM to the Miami Heat.

    That being said, every playoff run is valuable experience, especially deep ones like this. Then factor in that all of our 6 best players are still here and 5 still developing at a rapid pace. Point and case, if we face the Miami Heat in a game 7 this year, I think we win. (if they can even make it to game 7 against us.)
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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    I doubt it. I think the Heat were still the better team and they would find a way to win. The NBA isn't real competition every game. You only get real when backs are against the wall. That's why most sports fans prefer the NFL. Every game is simply more important. Every single playoff game is game 7.

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    That situation caused me to lose almost a nights worth of sleep and whether or not it cost us the series is one thing but it's hard to argue against having Roy in the game...yes if Paul George stayed in front of Lebron then there's no realistic need for having Roy on the floor, but I'd take my chances with whatever else they have drawn up as opposed to having an "oops" moment derail what was a monumental effort by Paul George to get us in that position to steal the game. I was way more livid about losing game 1 than I was game 3 cause we just got waxed in game 3. Frank's decision making was questionable at best in that first game towards the end and just plain dumb at the worst.

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I doubt it. I think the Heat were still the better team and they would find a way to win. The NBA isn't real competition every game. You only get real when backs are against the wall. That's why most sports fans prefer the NFL. Every game is simply more important. Every single playoff game is game 7.
    Really? The series that we had with the Heat this year was absolutely incredible. You can't seriously tell me that you didn't see every single player on that court giving it all they could... Every game was a close game.
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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    I feel that the Pacers would have enjoyed a tremendous confidence boost by beating the Heat in game 1.

    Vogel made the same mistake twice, resulting in four points going to the Heat on easier looks than they would have otherwise had. I feel that the Pacers very likely would have won that game, and also would have had a huge psychological advantage over the Heat as a result.

    I also feel that the Heat would have responded in a more desperate fashion in game 2, but I still think that the Pacers might have been able to deal with the increased intensity from the Heat due to their own increase in confidence.

    Assuming the Pacers had gone up 2-0, I feel that the Pacers would have had a much better than even chance to win the series.

    So, while not a complete certainty, I feel that there is a compelling argument supporting the position that yes, pulling Roy cost the Pacers the series.

    If I had to choose an absolute answer, I would have to say yes.

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    Nope. Vogel knew what play they were going to run, and he had the right players on the court. Paul George made a mistake deciding if he was going to pick up Allen flashing to the corner. Lebron made a damn good basketball play by cutting to the basket as soon as he caught the ball. Spolestra NEVER designed the play for a layup.

    Didn't we already beat this topic to death in the original thread?

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    If we win Game 1, then Miami is coming out with vengeance in Game 2...just like they did the entire series after we'd win a game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    It's kinda like the opposite of that Durant/Wade Gatorade (Powerade?) commercial.... only in this one it's Lebron and Hibbert and Lebron wakes happy and content because Hibbert is on the bench. And Hibbert awakes frustrated because he got to watch Lebron go to the basket and there was nothing Hibbert could do about it. Talk about a nightmare scenario.....
    It's more like George doesn't overrun the play and LeBron misses a contested jumpshot. They did the commercial both ways.

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    Default Re: Did Frank's decision to pull Hibbert at end of Game 1 cost us the series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Personally, I don't think we win game 7 in Miami. This team just wasn't ready.
    Yep.
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