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Thread: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    This whole post can be answered or summed up in one sentence. The Pacers have never made a trade for or brought in a free agent superstar.......
    Neither have the Spurs......

    Outside of the Bostons, LAs, Miamis, NYs, etc; not many teams have. You have to give up too much in a trade and previously had to commit too much to sign a superstar FA.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by littlerichard54 View Post
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    Neither have the Spurs......

    Outside of the Bostons, LAs, Miamis, NYs, etc; not many teams have. You have to give up too much in a trade and previously had to commit too much to sign a superstar FA.
    I would thank this 1000 times if I could. There was 1 superstar (Deron Williams) who was a free agent this year, his agent puts out a flier saying he will only sign with NJ or Dallas and this suddenly makes Simon a cheapskate.

    Simon can "go after" superstars all he wants, but they still have to agree to come here.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Lets please get off the idea that Herb is the patron saint of basketball in Indianapolis. We can't say in one sentence that he is a shrewd businessman who has made billions in the Indianapolis area, and then in the next say that he deserves our reverence because he has been flogged repeated for years from owning this franchise out the good of his heart.
    Except that isn't what Hicks said.

    All Hicks was saying, I think, is that these types of posts just aren't warranted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coupe View Post
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    **** you simon
    No one is saying you have to kiss Simon's butt. Just give a LITTLE respect where respect is due (or at least civility) when you are making whatever point... the reason Indy still has an NBA team is due to the Simons, end of story. That's not some feel-good sentiment, it's documented fact.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    Except that isn't what Hicks said.

    All Hicks was saying, I think, is that these types of posts just aren't warranted.


    No one is saying you have to kiss Simon's butt. Just give a LITTLE respect where respect is due (or at least civility) when you are making whatever point... the reason Indy still has an NBA team is due to the Simons, end of story. That's not some feel-good sentiment, it's documented fact.
    You must not have read the entire post, because he started in about losing money every year yet being dedicated the city, and everyone should be thankful we have a team to spend money on.

    As if there should be some sort of reverence for the man. I say to hell with that, the guy has made billions with the lucrative contracts he has received from the city.
    I'm a loyal PAYING customer of his product for the past 5 years. I'm not one of these people who just watch on TV or only go to games when I get a free ticket or a deeply discounted ticket. I'm there, putting up my dough and buying a ticket package in advance. I am one of the few who will go see the them beat down the Raptors or Bobcats on a Wednesday night. I certainly have the right to say whatever I please about the way he may choose to run the organization.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    I get that as a "customer" one has the right to voice an opinion about the product they're receiving, but that doesn't give one the right to be an asshat.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    It's an internet message board. Either suspend/ban him, because you're not going to get people to talk the way you'd like them to talk. Either do something about it, or move on.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    If they don't match on Roy then I just don't see how anyone can argue that the team is 100% committed to winning.
    We can't even get the intelligent hard core fans on this message board to agree whether signing Roy to the max is a good idea or cap hell. How can it be such a no-brainer? I guarantee if we sign Roy to the max and he basically stays at the same level, the act of wasting money by signing him instead of using it to get a bigger name free agent will be used as the NEXT reason Simon isn't "100% committed to winning".
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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    He didn't want to pay a Granger level shooter with an big injury history a max deal?

    That dirty, cheap jerk.

    He wants to avoid the luxury tax on an iffy signing for a team with the worst fan support in the league.

    Hey fans, how about if Simon is digging in for the extra $15-20m per year, you maybe get off your fat *** and buy a couple $10 seats from time to time. Who's the cheapskate again?

    Bird wanted the WRONG piece for too high a price. Did you see Simon balk at the GEORGE HILL RESIGN? Nope. And the word is mgmt has the option to resign Roy IF IT'S A SOLID DEAL.

    Indy can't swing and miss over the luxury tax like NY or LA, but really it's kinda tough to do anyway. EJ's max deal seems like a huge risk.



    Let me make it easier to understand - would anyone hear accuse Simon of being "cheap" if he told Bird that he wouldn't pay Artest a max deal for 4 years now. Of course not, so there is a line that we all know is out there on quality deals versus poor spending. Some of you just like EJ more and don't see it as a risk, just like the Roy debate.

    But these signings ARE DEBATABLE. These aren't no-brainers. This isn't Lebron or Kobe or even Ray Allen. These are tough calls.

    DAVID WEST GOT MORE PER YEAR THAN BOSTON OFFERED - cheap owner. BARBOSA was brought in for a $0 salary 2nd round pick - cheap owner. DJones was a small deal but was still an overpay - cheap owner. The Pacers just offered Nash MORE THAN THE LAKERS are giving him - cheap owner.

    Seriously, where are all these guys that aren't getting paid in Indy? I know that JO did, Tinsley did, Bender did, Croshere did, Harrington did (gave up the pick to put him in the TE when no one else could).







    I'm not an ownership apologist even. But this is just a witch hunt where people want to believe an angle and look at everything through that light. It's not cheap till it's a really good, resonable option and the owner passes on it.

    When Simon does something like that then I'll agree.

    Freaking Bird and his "small market" bulls**** - what part of YOU BLEW PAST THE CAP AND RAN OUT OF MONEY DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND LARRY? Nice GM work, blaming the owner for your inability to stay under the cap so you can actually acquire talent.

    The Pacers have only been under the NBA cap the last 2 seasons after some 20 or more above it, forced to trade or MLE or MIN players only. Yep, that's a cheapskate alright.

    And if you sign Gordon and Hibbert then that's it, that's your team for the next 5-8 years unless they retire or get traded, and why are you signing them if you are just going to be trading them?
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-09-2012 at 11:35 AM.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    But these signings ARE DEBATABLE. These aren't no-brainers. This isn't Lebron or Kobe or even Ray Allen. These are tough calls.
    Kobe, Lebron, Ray Allen, Nash are not coming here, EJ wanted to come here that's the difference, you take the risk when you have a potential star that want's to be a Pacers, hell, even Crawford said NO to the Pacers, explain to me how you are going to convince stars players to come here? we have the money and a good team and not even a 38 years old Nash wanted to play here.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 07-09-2012 at 11:40 AM.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    We can't even get the intelligent hard core fans on this message board to agree whether signing Roy to the max is a good idea or cap hell. How can it be such a no-brainer? I guarantee if we sign Roy to the max and he basically stays at the same level, the act of wasting money by signing him instead of using it to get a bigger name free agent will be used as the NEXT reason Simon isn't "100% committed to winning".
    Exactly.

    Shame on Bird for using this excuse, it sounds like a spoiled kid who didn't get to have donuts for dinner. He's got the same cap limits as all the other teams, and VERY few (like 1-2) are willing to go over the new lux tax. Or is Mark Cuban the epitome of an owner who won't pay to win since he's trying to avoid the massive salary penalties of the next tax.


    In fact, which teams were over the LUXURY TAX last year or this year or any of the prior 5 years. Let's get the official list so we can fairly compare Simon's methods with all the other teams. If he's so cheap then we will see 7-8 teams "trying to win" at the very least, and really more if you want Herb to stand out on the cheap side.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Exactly.

    Shame on Bird for using this excuse, it sounds like a spoiled kid who didn't get to have donuts for dinner. He's got the same cap limits as all the other teams, and VERY few (like 1-2) are willing to go over the new lux tax. Or is Mark Cuban the epitome of an owner who won't pay to win since he's trying to avoid the massive salary penalties of the next tax.


    In fact, which teams were over the LUXURY TAX last year or this year or any of the prior 5 years. Let's get the official list so we can fairly compare Simon's methods with all the other teams. If he's so cheap then we will see 7-8 teams "trying to win" at the very least, and really more if you want Herb to stand out on the cheap side.
    Cuban was not trying to avoid anything he was trying to get Howard/Dwill.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    EJ wanted to come here that's the difference, you take the risk when you have a potential star that want's to be a Pacers, hell, even Crawford said NO to the Pacers, explain to me how you are going to convince stars players to come here? we have the money and a good team and not even a 38 years old Nash wanted to play here.
    And I don't believe EJ is a no-brainer given his injury history. If signing Roy to the max and having him stay the same would cause people to talk about how stupid and/or unmotivated to win Walsh & Simon are, what does signing EJ to the max to wear pretty suits behind the bench do?

    There's a point at which you assess the risk as well as the reward. The last time we mistook the risk the team imploded.
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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Cuban was not trying to avoid anything he was trying to get Howard/Dwill.
    As I recall he didn't get far enough under the cap to sign either one outright at the max, did he? Certainly not to get both.
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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I think they are better off moving to another city if
    they expect people to attend games and actually pay for a few seats from time to time.

    I assume that's what you really meant to say.

    If there is one NBA fanbase that has no room to talk about spending and expectations from ownership, it's the Indy NBA fanbase. The attendance to results ratio was the worst in the NBA by far, and it was the same last year after Vogel took over. You signed West and Hill (kinda) which is about as much as you could do to make a splash last year, and that got you bottom of the barrel attendance.

    I used to dread the Pacers moving, but now I don't see any reason to stay.


    By the way, don't you love how Bird complains about ownership and small-market ownership, but then says "oh, I'm too old to get into ownership myself" despite being younger than most owners. How convenient that he doesn't want to put himself in Simon's shoes.

    If Simon is doing such a crap job then why doesn't Larry go find all this free cash and show Herb how to run a team in Indy the right way.

    Larry - put your money where your mouth is, and maybe get 10K-15K of your devotees to show up 41 times a season too.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Kobe, Lebron, Ray Allen, Nash are not coming here, EJ wanted to come here that's the difference, you take the risk when you have a potential star that want's to be a Pacers, hell, even Crawford said NO to the Pacers, explain to me how you are going to convince stars players to come here? we have the money and a good team and not even a 38 years old Nash wanted to play here.
    This....

    I think the EJ thing played a huge role in Birds departure. Not sure if its the money/risk thing or the not signing offer sheets to Restricted Free agents that ultimately was the stumbling block. We may never know. I almost tend to believe its the latter, because from a business standpoint, while a risk given his injury history, the fact u have a local boy who ur basketball people may believe is a legit star in the making and would certainly help at the box office...well its hard to see Simon rejecting such...especially given his history....so it seems like it might be more a matter of principle...ala the RFA issue...

    The other thing that hasnt really been mentioned I dont believe is...I believe i read somewhere that Bird took a reduction in salary from 3 million to 1 million when he stayed on last year. Maybe the reigning executive of the year wanted his prior salary reinstated and Simon balked.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    =BillS;1475870]And I don't believe EJ is a no-brainer given his injury history.
    That's you opinion and I respect that but I disagree.


    If signing Roy to the max and having him stay the same would cause people to talk about how stupid and/or unmotivated to win Walsh & Simon are, what does signing EJ to the max to wear pretty suits behind the bench do?
    Re-signing Roy won't be stupid, re-signing Roy and staying with the same team is stupid in my opinion, now if we are looking to have a second round exit ceiling, yeah go ahead and stay with the same people.

    Regarding EJ nobody knows how healthy he is, I'm pretty sure teams do a body check before signing him or something like that.



    There's a point at which you assess the risk as well as the reward. The last time we mistook the risk the team imploded.

    We took a chance on many crazy characters in one team at one time, this is way different.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    As I recall he didn't get far enough under the cap to sign either one outright at the max, did he? Certainly not to get both.
    Yep he was trying to get both, I think he had a deal with a team for them to take on Marion's contract.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    I have a feeling that playoff games and winning season records might just be enough and the more I think about it the more that sounds like the 90's to me.
    Said the Utah, Seattle, Miami, New York fanbases.

    Clearly when they lost games to the same team's Indy was losing too it was a sign that "just getting to the Con Finals more than anyone else is good enough for us".

    Give me another 90's run any day of the week. I'm sorry your Ferrari F40 didn't come with On-Star, but my standards just high enough to understand why it bothers you.



    Jesus Peck. I mean I guess if 6 titles is enough for Mike then go ahead and play baseball for 2 years. I don't know, I guess Jordan just didn't have the will to win 8.

    The old "if they didn't win it all it mean they weren't fielding an elite team" chestnut that just won't die the appropriate death it deserves.

    The Dodgers and Orioles and Rangers and Red Sox and Yanks have all thrown tons of money at rosters, and MOST OF THE TIME those teams have come up short....just satisfied with a good season record apparently. I mean the Yanks beating Boston or the Ranger, the Marlins beating the Yanks, the D-backs beating the Yanks - that had nothing to do with them being better and everything to do with the Yanks just being unwilling to spend what it takes to win it all.


    If you are in the Con Finals or Champ Series or Finals or World Series or AFC/NFC CG or Super Bowl and you lose YOU STILL WERE GREAT. Especially if you do it EVERY FREAKING YEAR.

    It's insulting to the idea of winning itself to treat FIVE ECF/1 Finals in 7 years as "satisfied to just be pretty good". How many teams have played 5 potential series winning games in the Con Finals in the last 20 years, and that's with the Pacers JOB run. 4 times the Pacers played to go to the Finals and lost, they started 48 minutes away from being in the Finals 4 freaking times.

    That laughs in the face of "just happy to be here".

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    We can't even get the intelligent hard core fans on this message board to agree whether signing Roy to the max is a good idea or cap hell. How can it be such a no-brainer?

    Huh? 128 members of this forum voted on this very question, and 92% voted in favor of keeping Roy. That seems like pretty strong agreement to me. I don't think I've ever seen such a lopsided poll on this forum in regard to such an important question.

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...r-sheet-to-Roy

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Cuban was not trying to avoid anything he was trying to get Howard/Dwill.
    Cuban has said outright that he wants no part of the luxury tax. He was making a run to get DWill to replace Kidd and almost did it, but that wouldn't put him over the lux tax and it's not adding a piece, it's REPLACING a piece.

    DWill is better, but that's still like letting Granger walk to sign EJ, and that's different than this situation.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    A good owner in the NBA listens to his front office. If your current Executive of the Year tells you we need to get Eric Gordon to push this team to the next level.....well you should probably listen to him.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    they expect people to attend games and actually pay for a few seats from time to time.

    I assume that's what you really meant to say.

    If there is one NBA fanbase that has no room to talk about spending and expectations from ownership, it's the Indy NBA fanbase. The attendance to results ratio was the worst in the NBA by far, and it was the same last year after Vogel took over. You signed West and Hill (kinda) which is about as much as you could do to make a splash last year, and that got you bottom of the barrel attendance.

    I used to dread the Pacers moving, but now I don't see any reason to stay.


    By the way, don't you love how Bird complains about ownership and small-market ownership, but then says "oh, I'm too old to get into ownership myself" despite being younger than most owners. How convenient that he doesn't want to put himself in Simon's shoes.

    If Simon is doing such a crap job then why doesn't Larry go find all this free cash and show Herb how to run a team in Indy the right way.

    Larry - put your money where your mouth is, and maybe get 10K-15K of your devotees to show up 41 times a season too.
    Are you kidding me? you think that people are going to magically start to show up after years and years of the clown of JOB? the Pacers are lucky they get as many people now.

    To me they haven't fulfill their promise, 5 or 4 years ago they told us about this great plan that was going to give us cap space so we could bring players and do this and do that and so far they haven't done s***, now this year they are going to tell us how successful this off season was when they get to re-sign Roy and get another bench player, I'm sorry if I don't get excited about that.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    In two seasons the Pacers went from 32-50 (a winning % of 39%) to 42-24 (63.6%) and apparently the Pacers aren't making strides fast enough. Go figure.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Huh? 128 members of this forum voted on this very question, and 92% voted in favor of keeping Roy. That seems like pretty strong agreement to me. I don't think I've ever seen such a lopsided poll on this forum in regard to such an important question.

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...r-sheet-to-Roy
    But many of the ones voting "yes" expressed concern about the amount and the effect it will have on signing other players. It really wasn't like a "yes" vote in the poll equated to "without reservation". The very idea that there is a DISCUSSION, and that many of those people would themselves sign Roy but would not freak out if Roy is NOT signed, is what makes it a reasonable disagreement rather than a good move/stupid move dichotomy.

    My problem is that not signing Roy is being treated as the basketball IQ equivalent of not signing LeBron or Dwight or Kobe (without some sort of context all of which would be clearly stupid and cheap moves). There ARE other things that could be done with that money that would bring as much benefit at some point as signing Roy would bring.

    Not signing Roy would be a very public statement that there is SOME other purpose for the team's future. I mostly fear that the Pacers organization will fail to COMMUNICATE that purpose, as always, which will leave people absolutely convinced that Simon is a cheapskate and that the team should just go away because they'll never ever compete again.
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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Cuban has said outright that he wants no part of the luxury tax. He was making a run to get DWill to replace Kidd and almost did it, but that wouldn't put him over the lux tax and it's not adding a piece, it's REPLACING a piece.

    DWill is better, but that's still like letting Granger walk to sign EJ, and that's different than this situation.
    He want's not part of the luxury tax unless he has Dwill/Howard/Dirk in the same team, do you think he decided to screw another possible year for a championship just because he wanted to avoid the luxury tax? no, Cuban wanted a big 3 in Dallas and he was willing to pay the price for it.

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