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Thread: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Are you kidding me? you think that people are going to magically start to show up after years and years of the clown of JOB? the Pacers are lucky they get as many people now.

    To me they haven't fulfill their promise, 5 or 4 years ago they told us about this great plan that was going to give us cap space so we could bring players and do this and do that and so far they haven't done s***, now this year they are going to tell us how successful this off season was when they get to re-sign Roy and get another bench player, I'm sorry if I don't get excited about that.
    Gosh I can't thank this enough. The way the front office talked about the 3 year plan, they were gonna go after a real difference maker to pair with Danny Granger and grow and develop these young players. Once they have an opportunity to do that they passed. Maybe West counts as that difference maker? I dunno, a 2 year contract certainly doesn't show that. But if you are building towards a contender, then surely you realize that signing a top Free Agent is a must if you spend that past 5 years drafting in the middle of the 1st round.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Are you kidding me? you think that people are going to magically start to show up after years and years of the clown of JOB? the Pacers are lucky they get as many people now.

    To me they haven't fulfill their promise, 5 or 4 years ago they told us about this great plan that was going to give us cap space so we could bring players and do this and do that and so far they haven't done s***, now this year they are going to tell us how successful this off season was when they get to re-sign Roy and get another bench player, I'm sorry if I don't get excited about that.
    So how fast were they supposed to recover? Going from nothing to playoffs to second round isn't fast enough? Going from a losing season to a .636 season is too slow? Which is more important, big roster moves or results - and what result is good enough?

    From 1994-2004 the Pacers were one of the most consistent high-level playoff teams in the league. Yep, there were bad years after that, but limiting the definition of success to be "top-ten player in the NBA with full supporting cast" AND "NBA championship IMMEDIATELY" is unrealistic.
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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    In two seasons the Pacers went from 32-50 (a winning % of 39%) to 42-24 (63.6%) and apparently the Pacers aren't making strides fast enough. Go figure.

    And that's what will be so painful if we really do end up losing Roy. We ended up having a very solid rebuilding plan that restored us to success, but much of it would be thrown down the crapper if we don't keep him.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    He want's not part of the luxury tax unless he has Dwill/Howard/Dirk in the same team, do you think he decided to screw another possible year for a championship just because he wanted to avoid the luxury tax? no, Cuban wanted a big 3 in Dallas and he was willing to pay the price for it.
    If he couldn't get under the cap just HOW was he going to pay the price for it, since he wasn't going to sign Dwill/Howard outright? Try to convince someone to trade one of those three for his lower end players? If that was the case why would he have to get under the LT first - especially by dumping one of the key supporting roleplayers from the previous year's championship team? You can still make trades when over the LT.
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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Gosh I can't thank this enough. The way the front office talked about the 3 year plan, they were gonna go after a real difference maker to pair with Danny Granger and grow and develop these young players. Once they have an opportunity to do that they passed. Maybe West counts as that difference maker? I dunno, a 2 year contract certainly doesn't show that. But if you are building towards a contender, then surely you realize that signing a top Free Agent is a must if you spend that past 5 years drafting in the middle of the 1st round.
    So if they offered a max contract to EJ, and the Hornet's matched, you'd feel better about the situation?

    I'm just trying to figure this out. I didn't realize that simply offering a contract to a guy, when there's no shot of actually obtaining him as a player was such a difference maker for people.

    They offered more money to Nash than the Lakers.
    They're not on DWill's list.
    NO is willing to match any offer sheet signed by EJ.

    The options you want them to pursue, and using against them, seem a little far fetched and unrealistic.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Gosh I can't thank this enough. The way the front office talked about the 3 year plan, they were gonna go after a real difference maker to pair with Danny Granger and grow and develop these young players. Once they have an opportunity to do that they passed. Maybe West counts as that difference maker? I dunno, a 2 year contract certainly doesn't show that. But if you are building towards a contender, then surely you realize that signing a top Free Agent is a must if you spend that past 5 years drafting in the middle of the 1st round.
    I'm confused, this entire article is based on EJ, an injury prone player who may or not of preferred Phoenix over Indy not having anything to do with the offer.

    And the Hornets are matching anyway!

    What opportunity has Indy passed up because of not wanting to spend?

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    I'm confused, this entire article is based on EJ, an injury prone player who may or not of preferred Phoenix over Indy not having anything to do with the offer.

    What opportunity has Indy passed up because of not wanting to spend?
    Just about every one in the past 40 years. D. West is the first major free agent signing.....

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Gosh I can't thank this enough. The way the front office talked about the 3 year plan, they were gonna go after a real difference maker to pair with Danny Granger and grow and develop these young players. Once they have an opportunity to do that they passed. Maybe West counts as that difference maker? I dunno, a 2 year contract certainly doesn't show that. But if you are building towards a contender, then surely you realize that signing a top Free Agent is a must if you spend that past 5 years drafting in the middle of the 1st round.
    Yep and it looks like that 3,4,5 years plan is going to become another 3,4,5 years plan.

    Now I keep hearing the word "continuation" from Wells and other people in twitter, they say is the only way to compete, that "continuation is the only way to beat Miami" are you kidding me? you can have this team in "continuation" for the next ten years and they still won't have the talent level to beat Miami, or BLK, or a healthy Chicago, or Boston or even a healthy New York.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Just about every one in the past 40 years. D. West is the first major free agent signing.....
    I really hate the persistent notion that "failed to sign" means "didn't bother to try".

    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Doubling your winning percentage, and not signing guys that you don't have the option to sign is now valid criticism?

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    The Pacers are actually keeping the opportunity to get Gordon open by not offering a contract. If a team offers a contract and the Hornets match, then he can't be traded to the offering team for the duration of the contract. So Gordon wouldn't be able to come here for 4 years.

    Also after he is matched by the Hornets they can trade him in the first year, but he has veto rights, so in a way he gets to choose the trading partner. PHX would be out of the running because of the rule above.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    So how fast were they supposed to recover? Going from nothing to playoffs to second round isn't fast enough? Going from a losing season to a .636 season is too slow? Which is more important, big roster moves or results - and what result is good enough?

    From 1994-2004 the Pacers were one of the most consistent high-level playoff teams in the league. Yep, there were bad years after that, but limiting the definition of success to be "top-ten player in the NBA with full supporting cast" AND "NBA championship IMMEDIATELY" is unrealistic.
    Quick success for the now is not what I'm looking for, the Bucks and Bobcats tried this few years ago and didn't work well for them, I'm looking for chance to compete for a championship in the future, at this moment we don't have the talent to compete for a championship in the future, we are building for the "nice" quick success of the now, at this moment we only have 3 players that are going to be part of the future in Roy, PG and Hill, everybody else is either replaceable or old, do you think we have a chance to compete with those 3 guys? I don't.


    edit: Actually quick success has always been the part that grinded my gears with Larry Bird, he tried the quick success bs for a long time and it finally worked out for him last year, that doesn't mean that's going to work out for this team in the future, there is a reason why I don't want to bring old players here, because I want us to build a team for the future when Roy and Paul George are in their prime.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 07-09-2012 at 12:57 PM.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    I don't have time to respond to all of this right now but I want to ask one thing.

    Some of you guys keep saying the Pacers offered more to Nash than the Lakers did. Can you please produce a link or at the very least direct us to a quote from a reputable source to show this.

    I asked Hicks this the other day on another thread because he was using this as gospel as well, I'm not saying it's false but I would just like to see it somewhere other than quoted on here.

    Does it change anything if we didn't offer him that money? I don't think so, but then again it does eliminate this alleged offer from being used as a defense for the Pacers not lowballing people this summer.


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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    You folks have no idea if NOLA is going to match or not. At the very least it opens the door for NOLA and PHX to work a sign and trade before EJ signs the offer sheet. All I wanted is for the Pacers to be in that position. It should have been a no-brainer for the Front office. Lock up EJ quickly so that we can secure a sign and trade deal if they wanted to match.

    And maybe Sleeze is right, that the Pacers not getting him under contract will work out for the better in being able to trade for him in the future, but thats if NOLA matches. If NOLA doesn't match, then the Pacers lost out big time.

    But EJ has basically done his part in the play. He came out and publicly stated he had no desire to play in NOLA. Thats very hard for a team to overlook for a max contract.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    You must not have read the entire post, because he started in about losing money every year yet being dedicated the city, and everyone should be thankful we have a team to spend money on.

    As if there should be some sort of reverence for the man. I say to hell with that, the guy has made billions with the lucrative contracts he has received from the city.
    I'm a loyal PAYING customer of his product for the past 5 years. I'm not one of these people who just watch on TV or only go to games when I get a free ticket or a deeply discounted ticket. I'm there, putting up my dough and buying a ticket package in advance. I am one of the few who will go see the them beat down the Raptors or Bobcats on a Wednesday night. I certainly have the right to say whatever I please about the way he may choose to run the organization.
    Yes you have the right to say whatever you want. But there's a classy way to do that, and the ******* way to do it. Choose wisely!

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So if they offered a max contract to EJ, and the Hornet's matched, you'd feel better about the situation?

    I'm just trying to figure this out. I didn't realize that simply offering a contract to a guy, when there's no shot of actually obtaining him as a player was such a difference maker for people.

    They offered more money to Nash than the Lakers.
    They're not on DWill's list.
    NO is willing to match any offer sheet signed by EJ.

    The options you want them to pursue, and using against them, seem a little far fetched and unrealistic.
    It's not just about EJ, you guys keep hammering this like he is the only player, again we were told many many times that we were going to have cap space, picks and pieces to make s*** happen, so now you tell me, how long has been since we got all this cap space? it's going to be 2 years and so far nothing, how patient you want people to be? 6, 7 years of misery and you want people to be patient? I don't think so.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    And maybe Sleeze is right, that the Pacers not getting him under contract will work out for the better in being able to trade for him in the future, but thats if NOLA matches. If NOLA doesn't match, then the Pacers lost out big time.
    I'm starting to think that NOLA has to match. If they don't then they let CP3 go for nothing. Even if Gordon states he won't play for the Hornets, they still have to sign him and at least get something for him in a trade.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    It's not just about EJ, you guys keep hammering this like he is the only player, again we were told many many times that we were going to have cap space, picks and pieces to make s*** happen, so now you tell me, how long has been since we got all this cap space? it's going to be 2 years and so far nothing, how patient you want people to be? 6, 7 years of misery and you want people to be patient? I don't think so.
    Sometimes I honestly wonder what it would take to make you happy... the team has gone from terrible to playoffs to second round in just 2 years. What the heck more do you reasonably expect?

    Oh so they're not moving fast enough for you, ok. They're not signing enough expensive big name free agents, got it. They're not "making **** happen," whatever that means. Bummer dude. I guess none of our recent improvement really matters. I guess none of our young players is ever going to get better.

    Maybe you'd be happier as a fan of the New York Knicks, they sure make **** happen, they have so many flashy free agents you almost forget how much they've underachieved or how hopeless their immediate future looks.

    ---------

    Yes I'm teasing you here a bit, but seriously man I think you're going to continue being disappointed given the expectations you have... I'm guessing we will probably re-sign Roy and Hill and add one or two more pieces this summer and that will be it.

    It is what it is...

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    It's not just about EJ, you guys keep hammering this like he is the only player, again we were told many many times that we were going to have cap space, picks and pieces to make s*** happen, so now you tell me, how long has been since we got all this cap space? it's going to be 2 years and so far nothing, how patient you want people to be? 6, 7 years of misery and you want people to be patient? I don't think so.
    Then who else fits the bill that you're clammoring for?

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    You folks have no idea if NOLA is going to match or not.
    http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...ts-will-match/

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Quick success for the now is not what I'm looking for, the Bucks and Bobcats tried this few years ago and didn't work well for them, I'm looking for chance to compete for a championship in the future, at this moment we don't have the talent to compete for a championship in the future, we are building for the "nice" quick success of the now, at this moment we only have 3 players that are going to be part of the future in Roy, PG and Hill, everybody else is either replaceable or old, do you think we have a chance to compete with those 3 guys? I don't.


    edit: Actually quick success has always been the part that grinded my gears with Larry Bird, he tried the quick success bs for a long time and it finally worked out for him last year, that doesn't mean that's going to work out for this team in the future, there is a reason why I don't want to bring old players here, because I want us to build a team for the future when Roy and Paul George are in their prime.
    So, if I understand correctly, you aren't saying we're not moving fast enough, you're saying we're trying to move too fast by getting "now" pieces instead of "later" pieces?

    If this is the case, then why do you also complain that it will take another 3-5 years? How does getting "later" pieces translate into success before those pieces are actually ready?

    Also, how does a team guarantee success when risking on a player who is being gotten for "potential"?

    So, bottom line, are you saying the RESULT isn't as important as making moves with superstar potential, or are you saying that the moves for superstar potential won't count UNLESS they are successful?
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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    So, if I understand correctly, you aren't saying we're not moving fast enough, you're saying we're trying to move too fast by getting "now" pieces instead of "later" pieces?
    I think we can accomplish the "win now mode" and "compete for a championship in the future" by replacing the older players with younger ones that are going to be here when Roy/PG hit their prime.


    If this is the case, then why do you also complain that it will take another 3-5 years? How does getting "later" pieces translate into success before those pieces are actually ready?
    I think you can be successful if you replace the older pieces with new ones I don't think it will take another 3-5 years if you do that, my point is that the ceiling I see with this team right now is not higher than the second round in the playoffs, OK you compete for the second round of the playoffs in the next 2-3 years and then what? by that time Danny/West are long gone or retired and we will have to start the rebuilding, unless we bring two other older players that could help us to stay in the second round of the playoffs forever.

    Also, how does a team guarantee success when risking on a player who is being gotten for "potential"?

    So, bottom line, are you saying the RESULT isn't as important as making moves with superstar potential, or are you saying that the moves for superstar potential won't count UNLESS they are successful?
    I'm not talking about players with superstar potential, I'm talking about players that are better than the older players we have already, young players that could grow with our other young players, players that could probably be all stars someday.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I'm not talking about players with superstar potential, I'm talking about players that are better than the older players we have already, young players that could grow with our other young players, players that could probably be all stars someday.
    The "probably" is still the key word here. If there's no guarantee, what happens if that young player stacked team doesn't pan out? Do you consider it a success because they followed a plan of action that didn't work? Do you consider it a failure because they took a risk that didn't produce the required result? And, meanwhile, do casual fans show up for players with potential continuing to lose while they get experience - remember, we're NOT talking superstar potential (and therefore hyped crowd draws) here.

    Unless your goal is to spend 5 of every 7 years rebuilding, with only two of those years being ones where you have some vaguely defined "legitimate" shot at a championship - and this entire argument is predicated on the idea that getting to the playoffs second round is NOT a legitimate shot - you HAVE to spend some time at lower successful tiers. Otherwise, every single team that got a top-3 pick and surrounded him with supporting talent of the same age would have a championship. It doesn't work that way.
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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    The "probably" is still the key word here. If there's no guarantee, what happens if that young player stacked team doesn't pan out? Do you consider it a success because they followed a plan of action that didn't work? Do you consider it a failure because they took a risk that didn't produce the required result? And, meanwhile, do casual fans show up for players with potential continuing to lose while they get experience - remember, we're NOT talking superstar potential (and therefore hyped crowd draws) here.

    Unless your goal is to spend 5 of every 7 years rebuilding, with only two of those years being ones where you have some vaguely defined "legitimate" shot at a championship - and this entire argument is predicated on the idea that getting to the playoffs second round is NOT a legitimate shot - you HAVE to spend some time at lower successful tiers. Otherwise, every single team that got a top-3 pick and surrounded him with supporting talent of the same age would have a championship. It doesn't work that way.
    Bills the "young players" I'm talking about are already productive players in the NBA, I'm not talking about rookies,second year players or players with "potential" (Milsap 27, Humpries 26, Monta 26, Josh Smith26, etc) those are players that came to mind but I'm pretty sure there are more.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    And the Pacers don't have any ability to get any of those guys, without making a trade that would cost young talent like Roy (assuming he's re-signed) or PG.

    Which is why I asked you already to provide some names, other than EJ, that are a realistic option that would get your approval.

    What you're asking for is a solution, but the method of getting those players is completely unrealistic.

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