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Thread: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...because when they were losing money they spent so much more of it?

    you're more likely to invest money into a product that you're making a profit on and make even more money.
    I see the same thing with soccer teams, nope they don't care to invest that money back to the teams, as long as they are making money they don't care.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Simon LOSES money on this team every year. In the millions. He's been dedicated to keeping this franchise in this state for decades. He's made it clear he will only give the team to someone else who feels the same way when the time comes. Without him, there's no team to even consider spending $1,000 a year on.

    You have the right to be angry, but that doesn't give you a pass to be rude. I hate it when people can't make that distinction. You can show respect even while expressing your angry opinion! That should be the rule in general, but in the case of Herb Simon, his generosity and class especially so!
    Losing money on the team every year is his own doing, he chose the contract he signed with the city. He chose who ran the organization. Its not the fans fault that he loses money. And as for the last 5-6 years or so, he chose to okay the trade for crap players with terrible contracts. You can say the fans demanded it of him, but It really didn't do him any good in the short term. They should have stayed patient and dealt those problem players for better deals.

    Also we know with accounting tricks that the amount of money he loses every year is greatly exaggerated. Additionally with the new CBA and certain teams now willing to laugh at the Luxury tax penalties, Simon is going to re-coop a nice chunk of change from the other teams like NJ and NY.

    Lets please get off the idea that Herb is the patron saint of basketball in Indianapolis.
    We can't say in one sentence that he is a shrewd businessman who has made billions in the Indianapolis area, and then in the next say that he deserves our reverence because he has been flogged repeated for years from owning this franchise out the good of his heart.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 07-08-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Sounds like many people think it's time to get a new owner, like maybe a Sam Nassi or Nelson Skalbania type who can turn this franchise into the finest team Las Vegas has ever had.

    If everyone just gets together and refuses to spend any money on the Pacers, since they had the effrontery and gall to only make it to the second round of the playoffs, the unity of purpose will make absolutely certain that no one in Indianapolis will be burdened with spending their hard-earned money on the NBA ever again.

    Oh...
    BillS

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    This offseason has just been a trainwreck so far. To go from last year where this team really appeared to be on the verge of becoming a contender, to doing nada to improve the roster or address flaws...that sucks. Especially when the roster may well be markedly WORSE than it was last year.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Sounds like many people think it's time to get a new owner, like maybe a Sam Nassi or Nelson Skalbania type who can turn this franchise into the finest team Las Vegas has ever had.

    If everyone just gets together and refuses to spend any money on the Pacers, since they had the effrontery and gall to only make it to the second round of the playoffs, the unity of purpose will make absolutely certain that no one in Indianapolis will be burdened with spending their hard-earned money on the NBA ever again.

    Oh...
    I think they are better off moving to another city if their only goal is to get to the second round, how much money is the city of Indianapolis giving them again?

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Fans are attracted to star power. The Pacers do not have any star power and they are not a good draw on the road or at home.....
    If this is true, honestly that is just sad. Top 5 record in the NBA is no reason to show up? Gotta have a guy with his own line of sneakers to sell you before you can be bothered to show up? I guess my priorities for supporting my favorite TEAM must just be different than the rest of the fanbase.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Not to mention the part where they're still all sitting around together watching the summer league team practice, and how Bird ran the draft.
    thats why it will be very interesting to see how things go from here after this article....simon and walsh cant be at all happy with this...and even bird might not be....unless he was feeling vindictive....which seems a bit unlikely, though completely possible...

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hibbert View Post
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    This offseason has just been a trainwreck so far. To go from last year where this team really appeared to be on the verge of becoming a contender, to doing nada to improve the roster or address flaws...that sucks. Especially when the roster may well be markedly WORSE than it was last year.
    Honestly we haven't lost anything yet. If we keep Hibbert which I expect, then the the team has stood still. Bringing in Brand and or Mayo would be a failure for free agency unless Mayo was at a bargain price. Landing Kaman at a fair price and keeping Hibbert would be a huge sucsess, we'll just need to make a trade for a starting pg later in the summer or wait and see if the Celtics implode and want to trade Rondo at the deadline. Their were really only 3 impact ufa's on the market and we've missed out on 2 of them. I doubt if the Pacers move on Kaman and keep Hibbert but I think we could get him at a good price if we did it now before matching Roy.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Wait, isn't the CIB deal up?

    Why haven't we heard anything about renegotiating? Or is Simon now going to pay that 10 million a year again?

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wage View Post
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    If this is true, honestly that is just sad. Top 5 record in the NBA is no reason to show up? Gotta have a guy with his own line of sneakers to sell you before you can be bothered to show up? I guess my priorities for supporting my favorite TEAM must just be different than the rest of the fanbase.
    They had a top record but they were not a top five team. Why do you think superstars are so hard to get? They are the draw. The Pacers could keep winning with that group for years and people would not turn out to see them. People come to see James, Wade, Kobe and others when they play on the road. To some extent, more people turn out in Indy when these players come to town. This is nothing new, it is just the way the world works......

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    Wait, isn't the CIB deal up?

    Why haven't we heard anything about renegotiating? Or is Simon now going to pay that 10 million a year again?
    One more year I think.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    One more year I think.
    Looks like the last of three payments was January 15, 2012 unless I'm hungover and missing something...

    Section 1.02. Loans to PBLLC for Fieldhouse Complex Operating Expenses. The CIB will provide PBLLC with the following loans, without interest, for the payment of operating and maintenance expenses of the Fieldhouse Complex (each an "Operating Loan" and collectively, the "Operating Loans"):

    (a) $10,000,000 on the Effective Date;

    (b)$10,000,000 on January 15, 2011; and

    (c)$10,000,000 on January 15, 2012.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Sounds like many people think it's time to get a new owner, like maybe a Sam Nassi or Nelson Skalbania type who can turn this franchise into the finest team Las Vegas has ever had.

    If everyone just gets together and refuses to spend any money on the Pacers, since they had the effrontery and gall to only make it to the second round of the playoffs, the unity of purpose will make absolutely certain that no one in Indianapolis will be burdened with spending their hard-earned money on the NBA ever again.

    Oh...

    The 33 million dollar handout we as taxpayers gave them a couple of years ago is roughly half of what Roy's total contract would be. Yes, they had a decent rebuilding plan and it worked well last year, but much of it would be thrown down the crapper if we don't match on Roy. If they don't match on Roy then I just don't see how anyone can argue that the team is 100% committed to winning. A team that isn't 100% committed to winning isn't a team that I'm going to be eager to spend money on. If they are tight then I'll be tight too. I'm not saying I will not watch or won't go to any games at all. I'm just saying that I'll be less inclined to make the effort to go over to the Fieldhouse on a cold Tuesday night in the middle of January.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    It confuses me that Bird would allegedly feel that way. Roy is one of his guys, all the way.
    Foster was one of his guys, too. Think he'd be behind him if Fosters asking price was 10m last year?

    Loving the player isn't the same as loving the value.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    The Lakers are about to start a local TV contract that nets them $300,000,000 a season.
    Make that $200,000,000

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Again, not sure what's going on with the conspiracy theory stuff on this thread. Why are we looking for a zebra in a field of horses?

    Am I on drugs or something? Wasn't it the consensus of the PD community that Hibbert wasnt worth a max contact?

    Isnt it possible that the FO is weighing this choice out simply on the financial black and white value implications?

    Lets be real here. If Hibbert played consistently, didn't shrink predictably, and wasn't so "soft" at times, would we even be having this conversation?

    I love Hibbert. But let's get focused on the real issues here, and step away from the ledge of:

    ...Pritchard trying to screw Paul Allen
    ...Bird and Simon having a poisonous relationship
    ...Simon being a cheapskate
    ....ownership not being committed to winning a championship

    Man, I bet David Falk is loving this hysteria... Cha ching!
    Last edited by docpaul; 07-08-2012 at 02:11 PM.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Make that $200,000,000
    and half that going to other teams because you want a large payroll?
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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    They had a top record but they were not a top five team.
    This is simply not true. I know how much you value "expert" opinions, but the facts are that teams decide where they stand on the court. This isn't ice skating, or even college football. There is no room for judges and voting. A team that finishes with the 5th best record was the 5th best team in the NBA that year.

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    People come to see James, Wade, Kobe and others when they play on the road. To some extent, more people turn out in Indy when these players come to town. This is nothing new, it is just the way the world works......
    I'm not going to say you are wrong, but this has clearly not always been the case. The Pacers packed the fieldhouse for years with competitive teams lacking superstars. The closest thing the NBA Pacers have ever had to a superstar was JO, and he was borderline and not for long. And before someone says Reggie, in no way was he a superstar. Danny and Roy have aready made as many all-star games as Reggie ever did. He was loved, and he was an icon, but definately not a superstar.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wage View Post
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    Danny and Roy have aready made as many all-star games as Reggie ever did. He was loved, and he was an icon, but definately not a superstar.
    I know I can't count very well, but I'm pretty sure Reggie has 3 more trips to the ASG than Roy and Danny combined.
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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    I know I can't count very well, but I'm pretty sure Reggie has 3 more trips to the ASG than Roy and Danny combined.
    Oppps. I was thinking of Dale Davis for some reason. My mistake.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wage View Post
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    Oppps. I was thinking of Dale Davis for some reason. My mistake.
    As we all should be.


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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by Wage View Post
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    I'm not going to say you are wrong, but this has clearly not always been the case. The Pacers packed the fieldhouse for years with competitive teams lacking superstars. The closest thing the NBA Pacers have ever had to a superstar was JO, and he was borderline and not for long. And before someone says Reggie, in no way was he a superstar. Danny and Roy have aready made as many all-star games as Reggie ever did. He was loved, and he was an icon, but definately not a superstar.
    Have to disagree with you here, somewhat. During the Reggie-perennial-ECF-days...yeah we were pretty packed on most nights. But, even then, besides playoffs, I've never seen MSA get as crazy as when Jordan's first game back from retirement.

    The second or third year of Conseco, I went to games with friends, and felt like in alot of those games we had to lower our voices when we talked or others would've heard our conversation. I went to a Boston game and actually could tell you, verbatim, the trash-talk Paul Pierce was saying to Al Harrington before he crossed him over and hit a game-winning shot.

    This last year, my wife and I went to 5 games. One being the game 5 Orlando series winner. And a large contrast in audience depending on whom we played. The OKC and last Miami game were packed. The Golden State and Utah game seemed after the lower level, nobody was there.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    When did you start believing SImon didn't want to spend?

    What players were not spent on specifically that caused you to believe this?
    There was not one specific moment that triggered my belief. It has slowly taken shape while watching the team operate over the last 25 years. It predates the actions and rumors of this specific offseason - although, IMO, what we've heard and seen this offseason aligns with the belief.

    To be clear, I believe:

    - the Simons have viewed ownership of the Pacers as a a civic responsibility
    - they do not view a championship as the primary goal of owning the team
    - a good, consistant team the city can identify with is the primary goal
    - because a title is not a priority, the team takes a very conservative "don't rock the boat" approach to team building
    - the known quantity of our own FAs are prioritized over the higher risk of signing unknown FAs. Often with the result of overpaying our own guys
    - trades are handled conservatively. Many being driven by internal discontent more than a desire to "chase a title"

    Basically I believe the Simons have done the city a favor by owning the team. The team is a "charity" for the city as long as it isn't significantly burdensome. I believe if you gave them the option of being consistantly good for the next ten years with no title or winning a title, but having some extreme lows to go along with it, they would without a doubt chose the former.

    Specific cases of free agents or trades mean little individually. The nature of what I'm saying is that the team has nothing driving them to take the risks necessary to win a title, because a title isn't the ultimate goal. Therefore every individual circumstance can be explained as being too risky to justify. When you look at 25 years of everything being to risky, then the picture becomes clearer.

    The best individual example IMO is Barkley. It is the only time I can remember a top level player expressing a specific interest in playing for the Pacers. But IIRC, we were told he is to pricey to trade for. Would it have been risky? Of course. But it's the type of opportunity you see other teams take advantage of all the time. IMO, they felt there was no need to pursue him because the team was already a good enough to satisfy the primary goal , so why take the risk. The vast majority of the big trades the team has made were preceded by the traded player expressing some dissatisfaction with the team - Detlef, AD, Jalen, etc. Lacking that type of motivation the team will likely stand pat.

    I started to list other players, trades, and occurrences that fall in line with my belief, but they have been discussed / debated to death. Read some of BBall's criticisms of DW and you will see a good list. DW has operated within the Simons framework and that's why he lasted here so long and why he is back. LB had bigger dreams and is gone. Coincedntaly, DW operated differently with the NYKs than he did with the Pacers - IMO he was more aggressive. Now maybe that is small market vs big market. Or maybe it has to do with the difference in ownership's goals. As I said, no smoking guns, but a long list of items that when taken together start to give a pretty clear view - IMO, of course.

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    name an all star quality guy who can get to the rim at will and shoot like both Deron and Eric can. This was our last shot to add before paying our own. Literally Deron and EJ fit the bill of our last remaining key piece we needed to a tee but we didnt go after one of them.

    Who knows what the reminder of the off season holds??? I know one thing we aren't getting a difference maker to take us to a championship caliber team like we could of if we went after one RFA.


    It's fine if you want to sugar coat and be unrealistic it but im not really into that kind of thing.
    I wanted Deron or Nash in a Pacers uniform too. The reality is that they had no interest in playing for Indiana. The Pacers made a pitch to Nash (rumored to be 10 million a year) but he wasn't interested.

    I don't think money was an issue there. I don't know if they dont like some of the players on the team or if they don't like the city but Free Agents don't like Indiana. It could be because the Pacers dont have a superstar on their team. No one is lining up to play for the Sixers either.

    Eric Gordon wanted to play for the Pacers but I can't blame the Pacers for not making a max contract offer for a player that hasn't proven he can stay healthy for a full season or even make it through a season without missing at least 20 games. They also knew that New Orleans were going to match any offer so why bother?

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    Default Re: NY Daily News: 'Larry Bird flew the coop in Indiana and the Pacers' billionaire owner is partly to blame'

    Quote Originally Posted by rm1369 View Post
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    There was not one specific moment that triggered my belief. It has slowly taken shape while watching the team operate over the last 25 years. It predates the actions and rumors of this specific offseason - although, IMO, what we've heard and seen this offseason aligns with the belief.

    To be clear, I believe:

    - the Simons have viewed ownership of the Pacers as a a civic responsibility
    - they do not view a championship as the primary goal of owning the team
    - a good, consistant team the city can identify with is the primary goal
    - because a title is not a priority, the team takes a very conservative "don't rock the boat" approach to team building
    - the known quantity of our own FAs are prioritized over the higher risk of signing unknown FAs. Often with the result of overpaying our own guys
    - trades are handled conservatively. Many being driven by internal discontent more than a desire to "chase a title"

    Basically I believe the Simons have done the city a favor by owning the team. The team is a "charity" for the city as long as it isn't significantly burdensome. I believe if you gave them the option of being consistantly good for the next ten years with no title or winning a title, but having some extreme lows to go along with it, they would without a doubt chose the former.

    Specific cases of free agents or trades mean little individually. The nature of what I'm saying is that the team has nothing driving them to take the risks necessary to win a title, because a title isn't the ultimate goal. Therefore every individual circumstance can be explained as being too risky to justify. When you look at 25 years of everything being to risky, then the picture becomes clearer.

    The best individual example IMO is Barkley. It is the only time I can remember a top level player expressing a specific interest in playing for the Pacers. But IIRC, we were told he is to pricey to trade for. Would it have been risky? Of course. But it's the type of opportunity you see other teams take advantage of all the time. IMO, they felt there was no need to pursue him because the team was already a good enough to satisfy the primary goal , so why take the risk. The vast majority of the big trades the team has made were preceded by the traded player expressing some dissatisfaction with the team - Detlef, AD, Jalen, etc. Lacking that type of motivation the team will likely stand pat.

    I started to list other players, trades, and occurrences that fall in line with my belief, but they have been discussed / debated to death. Read some of BBall's criticisms of DW and you will see a good list. DW has operated within the Simons framework and that's why he lasted here so long and why he is back. LB had bigger dreams and is gone. Coincedntaly, DW operated differently with the NYKs than he did with the Pacers - IMO he was more aggressive. Now maybe that is small market vs big market. Or maybe it has to do with the difference in ownership's goals. As I said, no smoking guns, but a long list of items that when taken together start to give a pretty clear view - IMO, of course.


    This whole post can be answered or summed up in one sentence. The Pacers have never made a trade for or brought in a free agent superstar.......

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