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Thread: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

  1. #1101
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    The case for $14m for Roy is that he's an all-star,
    That is by far the least relevant reason to keep him. It's nice to say, "Roy's an all-star," but it's not that important. He played well enough for me to want to keep him. If he'd been left off the all-star team despite having the exact same season otherwise, I'd feel exactly the same way; it's nice to reference it as a shorthand for 'he's pretty good', but I'm not some star-struck idiot who is in love with him all the more because of a label.

    that centers are hard to come by and that any team would greatly value the opportunity to pay Roy $14m because of those factors.
    Not any team. If you have a better center, or you have a star power forward, he's not as important to you. We are not in that position. We don't have 2003 JO suiting up in the fall.

    This leads to the natural conclusion that a super-valuable guy (getting FAIR MARKET by the "match the offer" side)
    If this is in any way an attempt to spin my opinion to therefore suggest I think Roy is worth a max contract in and of itself, you are mistaken. Of course he's overpaid. But I understand that a team in our situation when faced with matching a guy like him, it's probably a good idea to bite the bullet and overpay because IMO the risk of letting him go is worse than the speculative reward.

    paired with another really strong, former AS SF, would make a strong case for a trade for a single AS center.
    You really need to get over this idea because that was not something I was pushing, and I didn't see anyone else doing it, either.

    But I think when you put real names to this claimed Roy fair-market value things start to sound iffy. How can you pay a guy $14m if you're telling me he's not viewed as good enough to get a guy like Dwight when paired with Granger in a trade?

    And if that deal can get done then I do think the Pacers should look at it.
    Because, as I think everyone here admits, he IS going to be overpaid. That's not the question. The question is: Is overpaying to keep Roy a good idea? I say it is.

    As for options if you keep Roy, I'm not against keeping Roy and I keep saying that. I'm just mulling over the value add not just this year but the next couple of years. What if West continues to improve from the knee recovery and goes for 25-8 averages this year, wouldn't you want to keep him for 2-3 more years and wish you had the money to do so?
    When has he ever averaged 25pts? And it's not like there aren't other contracts on the team salary you can move if need be if room is required. If it's such an okay concept to move on from Roy, it should be AT LEAST as okay to consider punting on Danny Granger. Small forward is the EASIEST position to replace out of the five with a stop-gap role player. (Yes, you still need to be talented at other spots, but the point remains small forward is usually the 5th most valuable position of the 5, in general).

    What if a great player on one of these super teams isn't working out next season and they start looking for a team to absorb a bail out and change.
    Vague speculation leading to a hopeful assumption.

    If you match Roy then you are buying into the team as Hill-Paul-Danny-West-Roy-DC-(one more guy). I loved what they could do at times this year so I'm not really against that as a future. I'm just concerned because it's a crossroads where you are committing to their own progress as the means for improvement to title status.
    So be it, but again you can still trade people later to try to find a better fit within the core. We won't necessarily have those same 6-7 guys for many years. May only be one year before one of them gets moved or replaced. I wouldn't be shocked if DC is gone before November. And ultimately, contracts are not seven year monsters like they used to be. We're talking a four year window here. Long, but not THAT long.

    It's stupid not to question it a little and wonder if it's definitely the right thing to do. You are saying that the superstar the team needs is already here in the form of Roy.
    NO ONE IS SAYING ROY IS A DAMNED SUPERSTAR. Knock it off!

    No, it's not stupid to question if this is the team we should roll with, generally speaking, but it is stupid to assume the grass is necessarily going to be greener if we let Roy go.

    Roy showed nice signs, but "superstar" or regular all-star signs? I don't think he's come close to showing Smits' level of consistency and offensive threat.
    He's not a superstar. I'm not claiming he is, either. No one here is saying "OMG Roy is a superstar!!!1111one".

    As for comparing him to Smits, how consistent was Smits in Year 4? What was that, 1992? And in any case, I think Roy's all around game is at least as good as Rik Smits. He's clearly a better rebounder at this point, too. Him not having the sweet shot that Rik had doesn't change that.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Nash and EJ came here to talk. They weren't offered as much money as they took elsewhere.

    Neither said "F Indianapolis, I'd take less to play elsewhere". Both said "well your team is good enough but so are other teams and they want to pay me more". If the Pacers threw a 3/39m at Nash he'd be a Pacer right now without a doubt. And as it was the Lakers had to give up 2 first round picks, one of which might have good value in a few years.
    Pretty sure Nash is making less than 10 per year in LA, and we offered him 10 per year. As for Gordon, you're right we did not apparently offer him the max, but A) He has serious injury concerns, but more importantly B) New Orleans was always going to match ANY offer we could possible make. He's not going anywhere.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    ^^Love me some Smits, but he did benefit from having an alpha dog enforcer inside and a deadly dagger throwing assassin outside.^^

    edit...and one of the best passers in the game getting him the ball in the exact position to shoot.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by gummy View Post
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    Thank-you for saying it, I was just about to.

    So should I get the custom jersey that says CAP SPACE or ABLE TO SINCERELY TALK? I guess that wont fit, might have to go with SINCERELY TALK, huh?
    I think I'll go with FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY if it fits.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Now the McGee's getting some acknowledgement, with that said, and I love McGee's potential, I'd never trust him with a max contract, I'd trust Roy as much or more than any player in the league. Ya, maybe he's not worth it by the numbers, but I feel good that he'd keep trying to be, with McGee I'd be afraid everytime I'd try to contact him and he didn't pick up by the 3rd ring.

    McGee has an enourmous ceiling, imo, but he's an enourmous risk post 'getting paid'

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I'm sitting in MSA in Rik's 2nd season. The guy behind me yells "Smits is a clown, Smits you clown, you stink".

    So I'm not rationalizing how virulent fan reaction can be to guys who get paid and don't deliver, as the fanbase thinks they should. Your nuts to think it can't get caustic even for the starting center. Roy is about to be the 2nd highest paid Pacer ever behind only JO...but you don't think there is pressure there or emotional stakes with the fanbase?
    Comparing Smits' play and pay his sophomore year to Roy entering his 5th with this new deal is silly. And people hating on Rik Smits back when he looked (so I'm told) like a bust (and, by the way, SMITS WAS THE NUMBER TWO FREAKIN' PICK, not Roy) means nothing to me. There's always some jackass heckling the team.

    More importantly, you're again assuming Roy is going to be disappoint. That is not something you should just assume. It's fair to assume he'll be about the same, not worse. And if you're going to assume one way or the other (better, or worse) BETTER is more logical because we know he's a very hard worker who has proven his dedication thus far to improving his body and his game, he's not injury prone as of right now, and he's already shown significant improvement (hell, dating back to when he started college, actually). He's an A+ hard worker, yet now I'm supposed to assume he's going to regress? Hell no.

    Cripes, Knicks fans questioned Ewing's value at times.
    All the more reason to not care what hecklers/'haters' think, let alone on top of this notion Roy's most likely going to regress/disappoint.

    This year, at PLAYOFF GAMES, and down where people had to spend to come see the game, I heard plenty of Roy complaints. I actually often disagreed with the stuff I overheard. But the point is that some pretty devoted fans already have high expectations for Roy, ones that aren't realistic IMO, and that will only get worse on the new deal.
    So what? They gonna stop going to games? How many do you think are going to leave? You really want to argue there are as many whiners like them to equal or out-weight those who like/love Roy? Really?

    So you can lose fans by not signing him and floundering and you can lose fans if you do sign him and flounder.

    The key, as always, is simply to be successful. The sin of losing Roy can be forgiven as much as the sin of intentionally moving Chuck or Det.
    Of course winning will take care of it, but there's one teeny, tiny little issue: HOW THE EFF ARE WE ASSUMING WE WILL DO THAT BY GIVING THIS ROSTER A WORSE STARTING CENTER? Some mysterious superstar is going to request to be traded to Indiana?

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by troyc11a View Post
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    What about Javale McGee? Would he be a legite replacement for Roy? Would he be to expensive or has he already been signed? Just thinking!
    For one thing, he'd probably command around what DeAndre Jordan did, which I think is at least 10m per year, and for another, he's a restricted free agent, and for yet another, the dude has shown himself to be an idiot or a child on multiple occasions while he was with the Wizards (from what I understand; correct me if I'm wrong), which is a serious concern.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    My mistake, I thought the deal was 3/37, not 3/27. So he passed on 10m from Indy to take 9m from the Lakers because they had Kobe. That's not really that bad, it's certainly not "doing you a favor" money.
    And because his kids live near that part of the country, which he has emphasized as being important to him. We didn't have a shot. Maybe if we save up our cap space we'll be on the west coast and have a guy like Kobe to recruit him for us. And a front court as stacked as Gasol/Bynum.

    And I think if it was going to be add Nash, keep Roy, then Nash made a mistake. I think the Pacers needed Nash more than the Lakers in terms of W-L improvement, which given the last season means that Nash Pacers would be much better than Nash Lakers.
    Agreed.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by BrownBearCoffee View Post
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    I can actually understand the FO being skeptical of giving Roy the max. Consistency is not an attribute he displays. However, he is a 7'2'' skilled center. Moving him next year around draft time is always an option, or even at the deadline this year ala Nene.
    I think this option is getting left by the wayside. Unless Roy just REALLY crashes and burns next year, he should be pretty easy to trade if we thought that was the right move.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Maybe they really haven't decided to match or not, but if they really haven't then that's really discouraging for me. It drastically changes the free agency priorities whichever way you go with it, get a damn plan together.
    Well, to be fair, I'm sure they've been putting together detailed contingency plans for whatever may happen. Kind of like preparing for draft night.

    Wait, we took Plumlee on draft night. Nevermind.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    I really don't think Roy is coming back. If you can, take emotion out of it, step away, and look from an outside perspective. Hibbert isn't worth 13 million dollars. If Roy Hibbert played for a random team like Minnesota, and was never a Pacer or a crowd favorite, and the Pacers offered him a max deal while only averaging 12-8, I don't think many Pacer fans would be on board with that
    Because we wouldn't know better. This isn't fueled strictly by emotion. That factors in somewhat, but I'm defending this because I believe in what he brings, not because I like the guy.

    God, this feels like 2003/Brad Miller all over again for me. I'm getting really worked up, arguing all over the place about it, and generally just not very happy with the franchise in general.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    This thread is fabulous. I nominate it for thread of the year whenever that **** happens next.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    I need a drink.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I need a drink.
    What do you know that we don't?

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Because we wouldn't know better. This isn't fueled strictly by emotion. That factors in somewhat, but I'm defending this because I believe in what he brings, not because I like the guy.

    God, this feels like 2003/Brad Miller all over again for me. I'm getting really worked up, arguing all over the place about it, and generally just not very happy with the franchise in general.
    Why are you getting so worked up so early in the process? It could end up like Brad Miller, it could not (I really don't think so--I think we will match).

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    I don't think I've ever seen Hicks freak out like this....

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    For real, Roy is good, but if they don't sign, its not the end of the world, you have to change your style of play, but there is still talent with room to grow on this squad already, before adding anyone else. I still think they look around on July 14th and realize Roy's the best player around and still my match.

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  26. #1118
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Why are you getting so worked up so early in the process? It could end up like Brad Miller, it could not.
    For me, I just don't see continuity or a plan. We went from having a stable base and looking towards a bright future to confusion in a month.

    Even if we do keep Roy, every player, even Batum gets their team immediately coming out and saying they will match they're guy.

    I was hoping the Pacers would add pieces and make a MAJOR jump. Now I feel like I would be happy if we break even.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    IMO I can see this unfolding like this: Roy signs the sheet. The Pacers wait until the last 30 minutes left on the three day period while all of the time we continue to say that we are weighing options. At the last moment the Blazers get pritch-slapped and we match the offer and Roy stays.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    For me, I just don't see continuity or a plan. We went from having a stable base and looking towards a bright future to confusion in a month.

    Even if we do keep Roy, every player, even Batum gets their team immediately coming out and saying they will match they're guy.

    I was hoping the Pacers would add pieces and make a MAJOR jump. Now I feel like I would be happy if we break even.
    Honestly, give us an example of what you were expecting.

    They have said all along that their #1 priority was to keep our free agents. I still think they will match for Roy and the sky will unfall in Pacerland. I think if we add Mayo to replace Captain Barbosa, with another year of growth from our current core--we aren't that far off. Some people on here are getting pissed off every time we don't sign these guys. We really aren't that far off people, even without major moves. I know that is not a sexy answer, but it is what it is.

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  31. #1121
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Honestly, give us an example of what you were expecting.
    Coming from someone who completely defended the Plumlee pick, draft night was a let down.

    So far free agency has been tough. I wasn't expecting Nash or anything, but I wanted improved guard play, scoring and a back up four.

    On top of that, it doesn't feel like Roy will be back. If that happens I just don't understand what the Pacers expect to spend money on. I admit that if Roy is back and we sign something like Mayo and a Psycho upgrade then there is overreaction on my part. But I don't get the feeling things will go that way.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    Coming from someone who completely defended the Plumlee pick, draft night was a let down.

    So far free agency has been tough. I wasn't expecting Nash or anything, but I wanted improved guard play, scoring and a back up four.

    On top of that, it doesn't feel like Roy will be back. If that happens I just don't understand what the Pacers expect to spend money on. I admit that if Roy is back and we sign something like Mayo and a Psycho upgrade then there is overreaction on my part. But I don't get the feeling things will go that way.
    Yes, my stance on the Plumlee pick is well documented. Venom has been spewed. Still hate the pick, but nothing I can do about it now. Agreed on the letdown.

    Free agency has been a ride. I didn't really expect to get a Nash or DWill or anything like that. To me, that has always been a dream. I'm slightly more nervous about Roy than I was a few days ago when this broke, but I still am confident he will be back. Even if it is overpaying him, the other options are much less appetizing.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Boy, I kind of feel bad for Granger here.....Roy took his scapegoat spot.....

  35. #1124
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I'm slightly more nervous about Roy than I was a few days ago when this broke, but I still am confident he will be back. Even if it is overpaying him, the other options are much less appetizing.
    With the Pacers not saying anything publicly or to Roy, I have to think that means one of two things. Either we really aren't sure about Roy or we're not going to sign him. Not being sure about signing a player like Hibbert makes me unsure about our front office.

  36. #1125

    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Has Roy or his agent said that he will sign yet?

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