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Thread: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    If is comes down to Kaman and Mayo or Roy Hibbert, what would you pick?

    There's number of years on the contract, etc, but just straight up, who would you say makes them better, next year. Is it even close?
    Based on the disaster that the playoff bench was, I'm on the Kaman+Mayo side. And I'm not even a big "go get Mayo" guy even though I loved him as a draft prospect.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-05-2012 at 01:39 PM. Reason: meant "not even"

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    If is comes down to Kaman and Mayo or Roy Hibbert, what would you pick?

    There's number of years on the contract, etc, but just straight up, who would you say makes them better, next year. Is it even close?
    Roy Hibbert. In fact, I think there's a third option that you didn't mention: Hibbert and Mayo. The Pacers can sign Mayo before they re-sign Hill and match Hibbert's offer. Signing Hibbert isn't precluding the Pacers from signing Mayo.
    WE ARE NOT GETTING ERIC GORDON

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Hasn't Bass already decided to "RE-SIGN" with Boston.
    No.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    Wells' gut instinct was that Bird was staying on as the team President, as well.
    To be fair, that was 99% of everyone's impression at the time, and for good reason.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    If is comes down to Kaman and Mayo or Roy Hibbert, what would you pick?

    There's number of years on the contract, etc, but just straight up, who would you say makes them better, next year. Is it even close?
    Roy. Easily.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    If the Pacers don't keep Hibbs, can they work out a sign and trade with Portland? Seems some teams are doing some sign and trades, but I'm not sure if the Paces could do it.

    Would suck losing Hibbs (especially for nothing), but he's simply not worth a max deal. Hell Gordon isn't worth the max cause of his health yet he still got it.

    Just a crazy FA. I can only imagine that the Pacers deal offended Hibbert and he's signing with Portland. I do think Aldridge is a nice PF to have next to you though. Much better than West/Hans combo.
    With the #3 pick in the 2015 draft, your Indiana Pacers!

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    If is comes down to Kaman and Mayo or Roy Hibbert, what would you pick?

    There's number of years on the contract, etc, but just straight up, who would you say makes them better, next year. Is it even close?
    HOw about this. Kaman and Bass with Courtney Lee would be better than Roy alone.

    Of course if the FO wanted to they could add Roy and others but I doubt they would be able to add a guy like Bass to the second unit.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    That was another thing. Conrad was poo-pooing the 'fans being back' because to him it doesn't apparently (my word) count until they show up in November.

    Well, genious, guess what losing Roy does? MAKE THAT LESS DAMN LIKELY.
    Until they go 8-2.

    I spent last year trying to convince some casual fans that Roy wasn't just an awkward stiff, so it's not like some universal love. Danny still draws the biggest cheers. IF Roy is matched and steps up his game another level (ala Danny the first year on the new deal) then he'll be a guy you can never get rid of. But he wasn't quite there yet, he was getting a lot of A55 and hardcore fanbase love of course, but the team still had identity issues late last season (in terms of fan awareness).

    Losing Roy hurts, no one could reasonably argue otherwise. But does that hurt more than it would hurt if the deal prevents some other improvement later? We don't know and it's a close speculative call. It's wrong to lob grenades from either side, it's not a disaster if he's matched or if he's not matched. Both can hurt if you don't go that way, both might be the wrong choice if you do.


    HOw about this. Kaman and Bass with Courtney Lee would be better than Roy alone
    I gotta say, that sounds pretty dang interesting. Lee is a solid scoring wing with some defense and a hometown kid. Bass and Kaman keep your frontcourt a little more balanced from starter to bench.

    There's a lot of ways to build a good team. Giving up some starter strength for bench firepower is a common choice teams make, and vice versa.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    If the Pacers don't keep Hibbs, can they work out a sign and trade with Portland? Seems some teams are doing some sign and trades, but I'm not sure if the Paces could do it.

    Would suck losing Hibbs (especially for nothing), but he's simply not worth a max deal. Hell Gordon isn't worth the max cause of his health yet he still got it.

    Just a crazy FA. I can only imagine that the Pacers deal offended Hibbert and he's signing with Portland. I do think Aldridge is a nice PF to have next to you though. Much better than West/Hans combo.
    THe only way I see a sign and trade happening with POrtland is if they screw up the Batum signing. Meaning they match Batum contract because they have to before they sign Hibbert. I highly doubt that happens but I guess it could.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I'm not trying to be a d*ck here or anything....cuz I know that the two of you ( and others ) have been trying to clear this up.....but I'm directing this question mainly at you and Kstat ( or anyone else that really knows )....since the both of you appear to have a clearer understanding of what can and cannot happen.

    At this point...is there a scenario ( I'm desperate here, so I'm thinking ANY SCENARIO ) where the Hibbert ends up on the Blazers but the Pacers get something ( ANYTHING ) of value from the Blazers?

    I am simply trying to find out if there is the possibility that the Pacers don't lose Hibbert for nothing.


    IIRC, I read where the Pacers and Portland couldn't do a S&T.

    Maybe they would do a "gentleman's agreement" trade for the Pacers not matching Portland's offer sheet. Where the Pacers get Myers Leonard for Stanko or something like that type trade. A type trade where no salary is involved.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    ...this year.

    But space last season gave them Barbosa for a late 2nd round pick. Space allowed them to take Hill for draft rights too, and allowed them to do that knowing they'd have a legit shot at resigning him.

    Portland will be paying for a nice kid who got flustered by guys like Joel Anthony, and they are HOPING he continues to improve. If he stays with Indy I'll be hoping the same thing. He has the right attitude to improve, but their are limits. For example, no one thinks his attitude is enough to turn his skill level into Ewing or Hakeem or Jabbar. His ceiling is lower than that no matter how much effort he puts in.


    The Pacers were able to sincerely talk to guys like Nash, EJ and Kaman because they finally cleared out some overspending mistakes. We are enjoying the fruits of that labor so let's not act like we don't know what's at stake with Roy's deal. It could go well or it could go south, and south could hurt.
    If they're so worried about flexibility, why does it seem like they're OK with overpaying Hill and not Roy? Losing Roy will hurt a lot more than losing Hill. They can renounce Hill, use the extra space to sign the same free agents people have been talking about, go with DC as the starting PG next season and they'll have a lot more flexibility. More importantly, they would be better.

    Part of attracting free agents isn't just the money, it's the talent you have. 25 year-old up-and-coming All-Star Roy Hibbert will do more to attract free agents than 30 year-old, never-an-All-Star, on-the-downside-of-his-career Chris Kaman. What's the use of flexibility if no one wants to come here?
    WE ARE NOT GETTING ERIC GORDON

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Also, I was informed by someone with PS&E that Conrad no longer works for them. So there's that.
    Wait, did I miss something?

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    ...this year.

    But space last season gave them Barbosa for a late 2nd round pick. Space allowed them to take Hill for draft rights too, and allowed them to do that knowing they'd have a legit shot at resigning him.
    Great! I can't wait to take a big step back next year so that hypoethically we can improve later by... making moves that don't make up for the loss of Roy!! (Like Barbosa or George Hill)

    Portland will be paying for a nice kid who got flustered by guys like Joel Anthony, and they are HOPING he continues to improve. If he stays with Indy I'll be hoping the same thing. He has the right attitude to improve, but their are limits. For example, no one thinks his attitude is enough to turn his skill level into Ewing or Hakeem or Jabbar. His ceiling is lower than that no matter how much effort he puts in.
    Rationalizing FTL.

    The Pacers were able to sincerely talk to guys like Nash, EJ and Kaman because they finally cleared out some overspending mistakes. We are enjoying the fruits of that labor so let's not act like we don't know what's at stake with Roy's deal. It could go well or it could go south, and south could hurt.
    We were abe to sincierely talk to the guy that didn't want to be here, the guy New Orleans is matching with a max contract, and an inferior center who can't help our defense the way Roy did. Woo hoo!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    IIRC, I read where the Pacers and Portland couldn't do a S&T.

    Maybe they would do a "gentleman's agreement" trade for the Pacers not matching Portland's offer sheet. Where the Pacers get Myers Leonard for Stanko or something like that type trade. A type trade where no salary is involved.
    That would be both illegal and incredibly stupid on portlands part.

    People keep bringing up myers Leonard as if he's a stocking stuffer. The guy was a lottery pick a week ago. The blazers are not trading him.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aw Heck View Post
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    Roy Hibbert. In fact, I think there's a third option that you didn't mention: Hibbert and Mayo. The Pacers can sign Mayo before they re-sign Hill and match Hibbert's offer. Signing Hibbert isn't precluding the Pacers from signing Mayo.
    Exactly. It can be Roy AND Mayo.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    HOw about this. Kaman and Bass with Courtney Lee would be better than Roy alone.

    Of course if the FO wanted to they could add Roy and others but I doubt they would be able to add a guy like Bass to the second unit.
    I don't like this view simply because we are ALREADY a team built on the idea of hoping the whole is greater than the individial parts. To take a team that is ALREADY leaning on the 'we don't have any stars, but we have several good players' and try to furthery diversify that talent throughout the roster is a mistake. If anything, we need to be CONSOLIDATING talent right now, not spreading it out even thinner.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    but we're not talking about a mediocre talent like Drew Gooden or Andris Biedrins.
    But what do you think it sounded like in the fanbase or front office right before guys like this got the deals they did, or Okafur, etc. It's ALWAYS about supply/demand, market, lack of bigs, etc.

    But signing anyone to a max that doesn't threaten to dominate most games is a big risk.

    Lebron for Max, J Anthony for not max > than Roy for Max, Danny for not max.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Until they go 8-2.
    Well, sure because that record (or the reaction from fans) is just a given.

    I spent last year trying to convince some casual fans that Roy wasn't just an awkward stiff, so it's not like some universal love. Danny still draws the biggest cheers. IF Roy is matched and steps up his game another level (ala Danny the first year on the new deal) then he'll be a guy you can never get rid of. But he wasn't quite there yet, he was getting a lot of A55 and hardcore fanbase love of course, but the team still had identity issues late last season (in terms of fan awareness).
    There's a big difference between 'we're not sure Roy will step it up' and we're sure that he won't. And you're referencing fan support as of a year ago. You don't think the following 12 months since then won't change people's views? I think it's reasonable to think Danny's stock has (if even slightly) dropped while Roy's rose up significantly since December '11.

    I gotta say, that sounds pretty dang interesting. Lee is a solid scoring wing with some defense and a hometown kid. Bass and Kaman keep your frontcourt a little more balanced from starter to bench.
    Except neither of those bigs gives you the defense Roy provided to the others on the floor, and even if we match Roy we can still add Lee and Bass.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I don't like this view simply because we are ALREADY a team built on the idea of hoping the whole is greater than the individial parts. To take a team that is ALREADY leaning on the 'we don't have any stars, but we have several good players' and try to furthery diversify that talent throughout the roster is a mistake. If anything, we need to be CONSOLIDATING talent right now, not spreading it out even thinner.
    So we trade Roy and Granger for Bynum to help facilitate the Dwight to LA angle. I mean if Roy is a $14m center then obviously LA or Orlando would fall all over themselves to turn their single all-star center into both an all-star center and an all-star SF.

    Or does Roy's value suddenly not look so good? Does it suddenly seem like LA or Orlando wouldn't be willing to do that deal? Or NJ as a 3rd party. Would ANY team acquire Dwight or Bynum and trade them to Indy for Roy+Danny? Then do it and you'll have your consolidation of talent into a dominating all-star center.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aw Heck View Post
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    If they're so worried about flexibility, why does it seem like they're OK with overpaying Hill and not Roy? Losing Roy will hurt a lot more than losing Hill. They can renounce Hill, use the extra space to sign the same free agents people have been talking about, go with DC as the starting PG next season and they'll have a lot more flexibility. More importantly, they would be better.

    Part of attracting free agents isn't just the money, it's the talent you have. 25 year-old up-and-coming All-Star Roy Hibbert will do more to attract free agents than 30 year-old, never-an-All-Star, on-the-downside-of-his-career Chris Kaman. What's the use of flexibility if no one wants to come here?
    Not only do you pick Roy over Hill in this scenario, IF YOU MUST HAVE BOTH... GET RID OF DANNY'S CONTRACT BECAUSE HE'S A SMALL FORWARD.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    Wait, did I miss something?
    ?

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    So we trade Roy and Granger for Bynum to help facilitate the Dwight to LA angle. I mean if Roy is a $14m center then obviously LA or Orlando would fall all over themselves to turn their single all-star center into both an all-star center and an all-star SF.

    Or does Roy's value suddenly not look so good? Does it suddenly seem like LA or Orlando wouldn't be willing to do that deal? Or NJ as a 3rd party. Would ANY team acquire Dwight or Bynum and trade them to Indy for Roy+Danny? Then do it and you'll have your consolidation of talent into a dominating all-star center.
    Yes, you're right, I think all four are equal in value. Stop it. You're better than this.

    I said we're better off looking to consolidate before looking to spread the talent out even more. Don't take that to mean I'm DEMANDING or EXPECTING us to consolidate. I think we are much more likely to just stay the same and add little complimentary pieces separately before we would ever find a good trade to consolidate. I'm just saying the worst option is to go the OTHER way and spread the talent out even more. We're plenty 'non star' as it already is with the 5 starters we have.

    Find someone who replaces Roy's DEFENSIVE IMPACT and then we'll talk. Let alone another two-way guy.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Well, sure because that record (or the reaction from fans) is just a given.
    If they go 8-2 it means that SOMEONE has done SOMETHING good enough to go 8-2. You can't picture what that is, but it would have to be something. Those game winning plays, game winning stat lines, would quickly erase fan anger.

    I didn't say sell tickets if you are going for the "fans didn't support winning last year" angle because frankly that angle doesn't support paying Roy. If they aren't coming regardless then save the cash for certain.


    As for paying Roy there is no way in the world the fanbase would ever react poorly to a 2-8 start with Roy going 8 ppg, 6rpg, 1 blk per game as a central factor in the 8 losses under his new $14m deal. The fans would love it and would never, ever whisper things like "bust" or "bad deal".

    How I miss those days of JO and Tinsley love later in their Pacers career, or the sweet sounds of affection they sang out every night when they heard the names of Croshere or Bender mentioned.



    So the "watch the fan reaction" cuts BOTH WAYS. Everything in these scenarios depends on results, not the initial action. If the choice works then fans will be happy, if the choice flops then fans will be mad, period. So make the choice you (TPTB) feel most comfortable with and fans-be-damned.

    The fans want Tyler to start and think he's one of the top 3 talents on the team.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I don't like this view simply because we are ALREADY a team built on the idea of hoping the whole is greater than the individial parts. To take a team that is ALREADY leaning on the 'we don't have any stars, but we have several good players' and try to furthery diversify that talent throughout the roster is a mistake. If anything, we need to be CONSOLIDATING talent right now, not spreading it out even thinner.
    Also, we could dump Hansbrough and Dahntay's contracts to make room for Mayo AND Kaman while matching Hibbert. Assuming Kaman will start at 8-10 million, and Mayo would be 6-7 million.

    Hill/DC
    George/Mayo
    Granger/Mayo
    West/Kaman
    Hibbert/Kaman

    Hill, George, Granger, Mayo, West, Hibbert, and Kaman all get 30 MPG.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    FWIW:

    Ric Bucher@RicBucher Source: teams still w/ a shot at Mayo (Mavs, Rockets, Pacers, Clippers, Knicks and Suns) + Kaman (Mavs, Pacers, Spurs, Kings and Jazz)

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