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Thread: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

  1. #401
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by MiaDragon View Post
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    Then dont run your mouth about how much you love it here and this is where you want to be, when it comes down to back it up you run for the most money.


    Why complain if you clearly don't understand the RFA process, or that there are differences between max contracts in the new CBA... doing so just makes you look foolish, no offence...
    "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

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  3. #402
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by BringJackBack View Post
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    If we lose Roy, we don't have to worry about contending for a long time. We've watched this guy grow, and the team grow from this guy and we can't let him go because he will make 10 more million than he should.
    If we don't match JO then we don't have to worry about contending. You absolutely MUST lock up JO, Tinsley and Artest now and for the long term if you want to continue to compete. That's the ONLY way to compete, any other options are 100% certain failures.



    Sheesh guys, it's a tough choice for a reason. The cost of losing on this gamble = Bender/Croshere or Dun/Murphy or JO/Ron/Tins. When you put your big money into guys they MUST be great or you definitely will struggle AND you will be stuck doing so.

    If you don't match you might struggle but you won't be stuck.

    Peja called to remind all of you that if we don't match his offer then it will mean we got nothing for Ron and the team will be ruined, whereas signing Peja for $14m a year can only workout great....

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    ...are you in some way arguing that the pacers would have kept afloat if they hadn't paid JO?

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
    NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Its too easy to say, I like Roy we must keep him at all costs, for a fan. When, what if you're saying, lets keep Roy and be a fringe playoff team in the East for the next 4 years, forgoe any chance to sign a true franchise max player. Other side of the coin is, Roy is as good as you could have done and he does elevate you to contention.

    Or exactly what Naptown said. We never know the alternate reality, so we'll criticize whatever happens if it doesn't work.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    If we don't match JO then we don't have to worry about contending. You absolutely MUST lock up JO, Tinsley and Artest now and for the long term if you want to continue to compete. That's the ONLY way to compete, any other options are 100% certain failures.



    Sheesh guys, it's a tough choice for a reason. The cost of losing on this gamble = Bender/Croshere or Dun/Murphy or JO/Ron/Tins. When you put your big money into guys they MUST be great or you definitely will struggle AND you will be stuck doing so.

    If you don't match you might struggle but you won't be stuck.

    Peja called to remind all of you that if we don't match his offer then it will mean we got nothing for Ron and the team will be ruined, whereas signing Peja for $14m a year can only workout great....
    If it wasn't for JO's knee he would have been worth every penny of that contract. Yes it is a risk, but matching it is the smart risk. Not matching is the bad risk. We aren't talking about a SG or SF where you can easily replace them with someone who might not be as good, but is still pretty dang good. If we lose Hibbert we most likely won't have another player of his caliber for another 4 or 5 years anyways.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    I will say for the millionth time... There's a HUGE difference between JO's 'max' deal, and what Hibbert will get.

    With the varying levels of max deals in the new cba, I wish the media and others would have dropped the term and just stick with money amounts.

    58/4 vs 124/7 -- see HUGE difference!

    If we can't land a superstar, then the most important piece is a true All-Star center. We need Roy, and we can't find anyone near to equal to replace him. (especially at less than what he is being offered.)
    "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    ...are you in some way arguing that the pacers would have kept afloat if they hadn't paid JO?
    JO had what, one great year (03-04) after signing that contract? The next two seasons he missed an obscene amount of games, though he did produce when he played. From 04-06, he missed a combined 69 games. In 06-07 he actually stayed healthy (by his standards at least), but by then the team was complete crap so it didn't really matter how well he played.

    The Pacers certainly don't win 61 games and go to the ECF's without JO in 04, but in hindsight we would have been better off not giving him that contract due to all of the disappointing years that followed. We could have probably signed someone with all of that money.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Someone will need to explain how the best player on the leagues 5th best team from last season is not a difference maker. I'd love to hear the rationalization.
    He wasn't the best player. He was debatable as an all-star even as a C, and if his caliber of production/consistency was at any other position he wouldn't have been. By any of the advanced metrics you see him ranked behind Danny, West, Paul and even George Hill. Win Shares, OFF or DEF ratings, eFG%, etc. He was 1 cog in a wheel of balanced talent. Saying "we can't lose Roy" is the same as saying "we can't lose Danny, West, Paul or Hill". Any of those guys hurt the team to lose, but none of them represent the entire team.

    On/Off Cournt +/- comparison puts Roy 4th on the team last year behind Danny, Paul and West, which means that the team was more able to play without Roy on the court (say foul trouble) than when those guys had to sit. Does that sound like "irreplaceable"? Of course it doesn't. He's damn good, he's part of the big 4/5 on the team, but this is NOT Ewing, Hakeem, Dwight, Duncan or any other big that you BUILD around. And how many winning teams have MAX players that the team isn't build around? At least without a ton of rookie deals to counter it?

    This means that Roy can't be Roy of last year, he has to be Roy of hopeful growth, of a big final key step forward to consistency. Danny started fitting trade rumors when his production fell below his non-max deal simply because for the salary he got the team must have that level of production.

    IF IF IF Roy takes that next step that you are betting on, then this all works out great. And if he doesn't then you are stuck as a good but not great team with less flexibility to change things. I'm not saying that I won't still love Roy being here and that in a dream world the team could afford all of this and more, but Roy being the Max stud is the ideal upside on a gamble that's 50/50.



    MAX CONTRACTS HURT SOME TEAMS
    The point about how the MAX situation hurts teams without true elite stars is a good one. If you have a guy worth MAX (or better than that value) then you don't need to pay for a lot of additional help. If your MAX guy isn't so good then you have the same money as the team with the elite guy in order to make up that talent difference.

    If there was no MAX limit, only the cap itself, then teams could throw $25m at Durant and it would keep that team from having 3 Durants on it. Then you'd have fair options, go with 1 star at $25m or 2 pretty good players at $13m and $11m. Miami, OKC, LAL, NYK all have advantages because their MAX guy is way better than the MAX guy on other teams.


    For all this "you must have Roy" talk, explain to me how Roy as your best player is better than Miami or Chicago with James and Rose as their best players. If they are all on the MAX path the rest of the way then the team paying Roy the MAX is in the worst position. Do you want that to be Indy or Portland.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-01-2012 at 07:34 PM.

  14. #409
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    They can have him. Never been fan of Roy. Taj Gibson or Omer Asik would give that production if they had same role and same touches.

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  16. #410
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Would we be that much worse with Kaman manning the 5? I love the Hibbopotamus, just wondering.

  17. #411
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Yup, Omer Asik could do this:


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  19. #412

    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    I don't think the same worries for JO, Tinsley, and Artest are there for Roy.

    There's overpaying for Mike Dunleavy, and the there's overpaying for one of the best centers in the league. And quite frankly, I'm not sure, given the position and how Roy has played, that it really is overpaying.

    you don't give a great wing the max because they're pretty much a dime a dozen, and if you lose that wing, you're likely to pick one up in the draft or off of free agency or what not. The center position is a completely different animal.

    Indiana has the possibility of a great future, but it's dependent on having Roy. That's just the facts. Do you want to get better or do you want to not "over pay" for a top Center.

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  21. #413

    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by tadscout View Post
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    If we can't land a superstar, then the most important piece is a true All-Star center. We need Roy, and we can't find anyone near to equal to replace him. (especially at less than what he is being offered.)
    You know pretty much everyone in and outside the NBA laughed at Hibbert making the All Star team, right? Are we forgetting that he was a fringe selection at the backup spot, even with such a league wide dearth of quality at the position?

    Are we also pretending that Hibbert is the key to the Pacers getting by Miami, Boston, Chicago, (NJ?), etc? And are we ignoring the fact that none of the last four teams standing in the playoffs had a decent center(counting Duncan as a PF)? People need to realize the league has changed. Sure there aren't a lot of good centers these days. But that doesn't mean that you need one to get deep in the playoffs.

    Bottom line: typical forum overvaluing. If they can add an important piece (pretty much Nash or Gordon or nothing) and keep Hibbert then fine, overpay for him. But if for the next 4 years we're going to throw out the same starting 5 as last season, expect a decline in results.

  22. #414
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    You know pretty much everyone in and outside the NBA laughed at Hibbert making the All Star team, right?
    Got some proof?

  23. #415

    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by BringJackBack View Post
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    Yup, Omer Asik could do this:
    19 pts, 9 rebounds. No, that's not Roy Hibbert's stat line from that one game. That's what Glen Davis averaged in his 5 games against Hibbert in the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by BringJackBack View Post
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    Got some proof?
    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/...nubs-surprises Ctrl+F "Hibbert"

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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    If Roy Hibbert is not a Pacer on opening day of the NBA season, I will seriously have questions regarding our FO's sobriety.

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  27. #418
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    19 pts, 9 rebounds. No, that's not Roy Hibbert's stat line from that one game. That's what Glen Davis averaged in his 5 games against Hibbert in the playoffs.
    And their whole offense was designed around getting Glen Davis mid range shots, and not much else. Roy averaged 3.8 blocks per game in that series, had a 12% BLOCK PERCENTAGE WHICH IS AMAZING, and had the highest defensive rating in the first round. Roy owned Glen Davis.

    Omer Asik would not have done better.

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  29. #419

    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by BringJackBack View Post
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    Got some proof?
    Of course he doesn't. That post doesn't make sense. Duncan was a center. Garnett was a center. Bosh played center in the playoffs after his injury. Big men are necessary to win. People are absolutely delusional about Hibbert's value. He's so important to this team and gives us an actual advantage over the Heat and most other teams. He is 7'2", consistently getting better, and works his *** off. His max isn't that much compared to the stars, and it's what he deserves for his special skill set.

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  31. #420

    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    None of those are laughing. Good proof! 1 person likes Monroe more and the other just didn't associate his name with the superstars in the All-Star Game.

  32. #421

    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickRelease View Post
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    Would we be that much worse with Kaman manning the 5? I love the Hibbopotamus, just wondering.
    That depends on a number of things. Kaman will probably cost 10 million or more for 4 years which is less but he is also 30 years old already. So on the back end of those years you would be worse off IMO.

  33. #422
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    Nate Drexler, Magic Basketball: Despite my instinct to say Ryan Anderson, I have to go with Danny Granger. If you're going to take one guy and not the other from Indiana, I take the guy who puts up the numbers, the guy with the flash, and the guy who is probably more responsible for Indiana's success this season. In a word, I would take Granger over Roy Hibbert any day of the week.
    Graydon Gordian, 48 Minutes of Hell: Roy Hibbert. Hibbert is a better NBA player than I thought he would be. But he's still not a better player than Monroe. Hibbert's selection strikes me as an attempt to recognize Indiana's achievements this season, not choose the best player at his position in the East.
    Royce Young, Daily Thunder: Roy Hibbert. I won't lie, I was a little caught off guard when I heard his name. Not because he's undeserving, but just because he's not a traditional All-Star kind of player. He got the benefit of playing on a top Eastern team. You can certainly make a case for Josh Smith being more deserving.
    This is your proof that everyone in and out of the NBA laughed at him making the all star team?

  34. #423

    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    None of those are laughing. Good proof! 1 person likes Monroe more and the other just didn't associate his name with the superstars in the All-Star Game.
    For what its worth realgm and prosportsdaily posters thought it was stretch that Roy made the all star game. I wouldn't say everyone but I would venture to say over 60%.

  35. #424
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    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    19 pts, 9 rebounds. No, that's not Roy Hibbert's stat line from that one game. That's what Glen Davis averaged in his 5 games against Hibbert in the playoffs.
    You realize Glen Davis took 89 shots to score 95 points right? That's pretty pathetic, and what front court player playing 40 minutes a game couldn't get 8-9 rebounds a game?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    I didn't see any 'laughing'.

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  37. #425

    Default Re: Portland offers Roy max (via Sam Amick)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    For what its worth realgm and prosportsdaily posters thought it was stretch that Roy made the all star game. I wouldn't say everyone but I would venture to say over 60%.
    RealGM posters laugh and are amazed at shiny objects. Also thinking it's a stretch (which it wasn't) isn't laughing.

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