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Thread: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

  1. #351
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    I agree with UB. Remember we didnt know about the back surgery when Larry had his presser last month.
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  3. #352
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Look its pretty obvious by now, Simon has no interested in signing a big name FA or going after a RFA that would push the payroll above cap once we sign our existing players. To Bird that means that the daily grind of running this organization is not worth it considering the terrible condition of his back. Terrible situation, I think we definitely have an ownership problem. I understand, losing upwards of 20 million a year during some of the past 10 years is bad. But if you aren't striving to get better, then you will eventually get worse and worse.

    They will mask this was purely a medical issue for Bird, but seeing a rejuvenated Bird just a month ago I don't buy it. Bird knows what it takes to win a championship, Herb isn't willing to spend it. Bird isn't willing to settle.
    You can rejuvenate the spirit, but that doesn't do anything for your physical ailments.

    How many times to people have to bring up Simon's willingness to spend (wisely, that is) before others believe it?

    People keep bringing up examples like Nash. Heck, Nash is almost ready for the retirement home. He's ancient and he doesn't play a lick of defense. Is that what you really want? That is not wise spending.

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  5. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    How are picking and choosing? Wells hasn't directly said one way or another that Simon is or isn't willing to spend $$$.
    But Wells has said that Bird wants to return if healthy.

    Your theory hinges on Bird quitting because he is fed up with Simon not spending.

    If so, why would Bird come back at all? What would health have to do with it?

  6. #354
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    I am not overjoyed, nor am I freaking out about this. Having Pritchard here relieves some anxiety. It will be interesting to say the least about what is going to transpire in the coming months with the team and signings.

    One thing is certain. The pace of roster changes is going to be different than it was in the past. Which is not a knock against Bird. It has more to do with financial freedom. Getting West, trying for Mayo, getting Barbosa, getting Amundson, and trying for Crawford is way more proactive than sitting on Artest, sitting on Tinsley, waiting on contracts to expire, and drafting upper class men.

    I would also argue that KP has neither as much positive interaction or negative interaction with other teams than Bird. Which is more of a positive than a negative.

    The future of this team is no longer dependent on one man. Bird is replaceable and he coached the team that way.

  7. #355
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    I've never quite understood how someone could be "past their prime" on a job like that. Its impossible for a team to ALWAYS compete, in fact, I can promise you teams will almost always have terrible years. Its not because the GM is past their prime.
    My response, as a Certified Walsh Warrior, is that times pass you by. I think Donnie got caught between modern players and an old-school attitude about loyalty and reward. He treated certain players as if they were going to give what it took for the franchise instead of being focused on their own personal careers. Look at the players Donnie was most successful with and realize that they got their rewards and repaid them by loyalty to the Pacers (even Reggie ultimately stayed after flrting with Free Agency). Players asked for trades and got them, but they seldom were wishy-washy about what they were going to do.

    Donnie also had trouble dealing with the impact of off-the-court issues. A New York guy in an Indiana community is not going to understand the depths of the emotions stirred up by what happened with Artest, Jackson, and Tinsley, and is going to keep those guys until forced to get rid of them for money reasons - Donnie never acted at short notice, and was never really good at it.

    Donnie's abilities have not changed, but his understanding of the environment around players did not change either.

    One can only hope that dealing with the egos in NY has helped adjust that understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Look its pretty obvious by now, Simon has no interested in signing a big name FA or going after a RFA that would push the payroll above cap once we sign our existing players. To Bird that means that the daily grind of running this organization is not worth it considering the terrible condition of his back. Terrible situation, I think we definitely have an ownership problem. I understand, losing upwards of 20 million a year during some of the past 10 years is bad. But if you aren't striving to get better, then you will eventually get worse and worse.
    I think Herb's view is that he has no problem paying for a known quantity (thus the approval of big paychecks for our own players) but has concerns about spending top money for someone without a guarantee of how they will fit in or how long they will stay.

    The other point is that from a financial viewpoint stablizing the income before making a new huge financial risk makes perfect sense, There is a valid perspective to say that we build a likeable, exciting, high-playoff level team without paying huge bucks, and repay some debts before going to the big free agent and risking an implosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I go back to my theory that Bird's goal was to build the best Team that he can put together while Granger was still on board ( hence the 2 year contract offers to West and JCraw...who turned it down ) until the 2013-2014 season. This would likely mean "winning as much as we can over the next 2 seasons" and likely spending $$$ to getting the best Players to fill the weaknesses that Bird saw this season instead of developing from within and patiently waiting for the tree to bear some fruit.
    I would say that this also implies perhaps Bird was looking to "rent" a championship team a la the Florida Marlins (bring in guys you could pay now to get the ring then have to dump them because you can't afford to keep them), while Herb would like to go back to having a more stable team that fans will consistently support. One championship year followed by more years of Teh Suck isn't going to support the franchise the way multiple years of high-level playoff appearances would.

    One thing I agree with is that we need to rebuild some fanbase for this franchise. It takes more than just the guys on PD (many of whom STILL threaten to walk away if a single wrong move is made) to allow a team to swing for the fences - if the swing misses, you need a good strong base to support you until your next try. Otherwise, you're putting all your hopes into one shot.

    After all, it isn't like there is a move that every single Pacer fan agrees would put the team over the top. Someone is going to be pissed no matter WHAT they do, be it nothing or trading the entire team for one big name FA. That means you need plenty of people ready to support the team through thick and thin, and we haven't built that back yet.
    Last edited by BillS; 06-27-2012 at 09:35 AM.
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  9. #356
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Mike Wells ‏@MikeWellsNBA

    U wouldn't think Indy finished w 5th best record n the league n had Exec of the Year w way things have gone past few weeks.
    This is exactly what I was trying to convey earlier. It feels like we're rebuilding even if it turns out to only be the front office.

  10. #357

    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    bball in response to your idea that Simon wanted a slow approach. I don't buy that. Pritchard is not a guy you want running your franchise if you want a slow approach. OK, you say well Walsh is running the franchise - well, we don't know that yet, we'll see. Plus how do I put this nicely. Herb is getting old. He's 77 years old, he doesn't have much longer to enjoy this and to get a championship. So I don't believe he wants a slow approach. He should be in all out win now mode.


    Honestly, I really believe Bird's decision to leave is 95% based on his health. Plus he's now been doing this for 9 years, he almost left after the last couple of years and he's often said that he will leave once the franchise is turned around.

    We can come up with theory after theory, but most of the time the most obvious answer is the right answer
    If the obvious answer is that it is based on his health you should hear that he will be back after he recuperates. Until i hear that I don't think that it is based on his health. How many times does a guy leave for health or family reasons and it is not health and family but that is a convenient excuse so no one has to look bad. I don't doubt that Larry will have surgery but I don't know if that surgery will keep him down indefinitely which is the way this is playing out.

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  12. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    If the obvious answer is that it is based on his health you should hear that he will be back after he recuperates. Until i hear that I don't think that it is based on his health. How many times does a guy leave for health or family reasons and it is not health and family but that is a convenient excuse so no one has to look bad. I don't doubt that Larry will have surgery but I don't know if that surgery will keep him down indefinitely which is the way this is playing out.
    The word ďretiredĒ is not being used with Bird. He may take a year off so that he can tend to some back and shoulder problems, then decide if he wants return to a front office, according to a source.
    http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsi...h-stepping-up/

    Not to pick on you Speakout but I made this bigger because it seems that people are just jumping to the "Simon won't spend and Larry is fed up with it" theory when what Wells has reported is the opposite.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsi...h-stepping-up/

    Not to pick on you Speakout but I made this bigger because it seems that people are just jumping to the "Simon won't spend and Larry is fed up with it" theory when what Wells has reported is the opposite.
    First of all I did not use the word retired and have no idea why Bird is stepping down but the fact that he was set to come back as much as weeks ago but now is not going to do so leads me to believe that the health issue is not the real reason. You can have aggressive back surgery and not need to take a year off anymore. This is not 1980.

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  15. #360
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    First of all I did not use the word retired and have no idea why Bird is stepping down but the fact that he was set to come back as much as weeks ago but now is not going to do so leads me to believe that the health issue is not the real reason. You can have aggressive back surgery and not need to take a year off anymore. This is not 1980.
    You said if it's based on health we should hear "he will be back after he recuperates."

    That's exactly what we've heard thus far, so what is your point now?

  16. #361
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    If the obvious answer is that it is based on his health you should hear that he will be back after he recuperates. Until i hear that I don't think that it is based on his health. How many times does a guy leave for health or family reasons and it is not health and family but that is a convenient excuse so no one has to look bad. I don't doubt that Larry will have surgery but I don't know if that surgery will keep him down indefinitely which is the way this is playing out.
    One reason Bird walked away from coahcing was his health. Remember he had a heart related episode/scare of some sort - I forget the details. We know he has health problems now. Why is it so difficult to be;lieve the guy has decided that he doesn't want to do this anymore for a number of personal reasons. Why must we think no, that can't be it, it must be something else, there must be some problem of some sort.

    If your back is killing you, if doctors are recommening surgery with recoup time of 6 months, if sitting hurts, if being in Indiana in the winters hurts, if you think Pritchard will do a great job, if you think you have the franchise headed in the right direction - why is it so hard to believe
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 06-27-2012 at 10:07 AM.

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  18. #362
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    You can have aggressive back surgery and not need to take a year off anymore. This is not 1980.
    Also, my dad had hip/back surgery. The guy was a marine, ran 5 miles every morning, never smoke or drank and it took him 6 months to fully recover and go to work.
    Last edited by billbradley; 06-27-2012 at 10:20 AM.

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  20. #363

    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    What are the chances that Bird announces this tentatively as a one year hiatus to have his back surgery and rehab? Walsh as the interim President?
    Slim and next to none. Why announce your leaving prior to the draft? Bird and Simon hadn't even had a meeting yet.

    If he was coming back next year, he'd want to make sure the team he left wouldn't be chopped up by trades or players he didn't want. Nah, this is a parting of the sea over how to rebuild this team between Bird and Simon not health. He won't be back unless it's as the Pacers owner.

  21. #364

    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    One reason Bird walked away from coahcing was his health. Remember he had a heart related episode/scare of some sort - I forget the details. We know he has health problems now. Why is it so difficult to be;lieve the guy has decided that he doesn't want to do this anymore for a number of personal reasons. Why must we think no, that can't be it, it must be something else, there must be some problem of some sort.

    If your back is killing you, if doctors are recommening surgery with recoup time of 6 months, if sitting hurts, if being in Indiana in the winters hurts, if you think Pritchard will do a great job, if you think you have the franchise headed in the right direction - why is it so hard to believe

    I have no problem with what you are saying other than if Larry is so physically miserable then this issue would have been settled some time ago and not two days before the draft leaving the franchise in a disorganized state. Tell me it's not disorganized with Morway out, Larry out, Donnie who has been out and is now in and KP who has been peripheral making the decisions.

    It's not the health problem that is difficult to understand it is the sudden decision to leave. Why the sudden decision if his physical ailments are that bad. You find it difficult that people do not accept the PR well I find it difficult that the day after we were out of the playoffs he was not under the knife if his ailments were that debilitating.

  22. #365

    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    . You can have aggressive back surgery and not need to take a year off anymore. This is not 1980.
    If he has to take off, say 5 months, with no travel whatsoever, Bird might rationally feel that he cannot do the job as team president to his own satisfaction. You can't just drop out of everyday direct involvement for months at a time. If he were under contract, sure he could take a medical of leave of absence, but I think it just makes sense that he needs both a physical and mental health break with no strings attached. If he were coming back for sure, there is no way he could avoid shifting some of his attention away from his recovery and "easing back into it" before he was ready.
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  24. #366
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    I have no problem with what you are saying other than if Larry is so physically miserable then this issue would have been settled some time ago and not two days before the draft leaving the franchise in a disorganized state. Tell me it's not disorganized with Morway out, Larry out, Donnie who has been out and is now in and KP who has been peripheral making the decisions.

    It's not the health problem that is difficult to understand it is the sudden decision to leave. Why the sudden decision if his physical ailments are that bad. You find it difficult that people do not accept the PR well I find it difficult that the day after we were out of the playoffs he was not under the knife if his ailments were that debilitating.
    What's sudden about it? This isn't even the first YEAR that he has said he doesn't know if he'll stay because of his back.

  25. #367
    billbradley
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    It's not the health problem that is difficult to understand it is the sudden decision to leave.
    I couldn't picture Bird purposely releasing this info before the draft. It was leaked and now they have to deal with it.

    Honestly, I hope something more serious than back problems hasn't happened since that press conference.

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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    Honestly, I hope something more serious than back problems hasn't happened since that press conference.
    Thats the other reason I think its health reasons. We know Larry has a heart condition that he treats with medication. We also know he likes his beer and according to some, his Marlboro Reds as well. I honestly hope its just his back and not something else, but I wouldn't be surprised if its more than just the back.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    But Wells has said that Bird wants to return if healthy.

    Your theory hinges on Bird quitting because he is fed up with Simon not spending.

    If so, why would Bird come back at all? What would health have to do with it?
    Not necessarily to the Pacers though, he did interview with Orlando as well. If you've actually read what I said, I believe it could be health OR spending, and maybe even a combination of both.

  29. #370
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    bball in response to your idea that Simon wanted a slow approach. I don't buy that. Pritchard is not a guy you want running your franchise if you want a slow approach. OK, you say well Walsh is running the franchise - well, we don't know that yet, we'll see. Plus how do I put this nicely. Herb is getting old. He's 77 years old, he doesn't have much longer to enjoy this and to get a championship. So I don't believe he wants a slow approach. He should be in all out win now mode.


    Honestly, I really believe Bird's decision to leave is 95% based on his health. Plus he's now been doing this for 9 years, he almost left after the last couple of years and he's often said that he will leave once the franchise is turned around.

    We can come up with theory after theory, but most of the time the most obvious answer is the right answer
    The obvious answer is Walsh was available, Simon wanted Walsh back in Indiana, Bird was talking about Simon needing to spend to win, Simon was talking about hearing Bird's plan for the next 3 years, Bird fired Morway, Simon probably wasn't onboard 100% with that... and ultimately Bird was pushed out for a different approach.

    As for Pritchard not being the guy you want with a patient approach. I doubt Pritchard lasts too long. Frustration will mount and he won't have the patience Bird did working with Walsh in the first go 'round.

    Walsh returning is the biggest buzz kill I could've ever imagined for the Pacers. It's went from wondering what the team will do to improve on last year's performance to not caring in fast order. Walsh's Pacer career played out exactly as I always thought it would... and not he's back. Blah.
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  31. #371
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    You said if it's based on health we should hear "he will be back after he recuperates."

    That's exactly what we've heard thus far, so what is your point now?
    The word “retired” is not being used with Bird. He may take a year off so that he can tend to some back and shoulder problems, then decide if he wants return to a front office, according to a source.
    "A" front office is not the same as "the" front office. "A" front office implies 'elsewhere' to me.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    ^ those are players he retained, mostly at above market value. Not free agents he acquired because he "thought he was the missing piece."
    Fair point

    I guess my point is he is not David Sterling, he will spend money even if it is to retain

    I vaguley rememeber but werent we heavily in the runing for Chris Webber when he was a FA, but he ultimatley returned to Sacramento
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  33. #373
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Fair point

    I guess my point is he is not David Sterling, he will spend money even if it is to retain

    I vaguley rememeber but werent we heavily in the runing for Chris Webber when he was a FA, but he ultimatley returned to Sacramento
    Walsh didn't pursue him. His agent listed Indiana as a potential destination IIRC. Probably helped by Jalen Rose being on the team at the time.... Ultimately, after front office quiet on the topic, and lots of forum speculation, something was said that made it clear the Pacers had no interest.
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Well, after hearing the recent press conference, sounds like health and change of scenery were the major primary factors. What the others were, we may never know.

  35. #375
    billbradley
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    Default Re: Larry Bird LEAVING the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    Not necessarily to the Pacers though, he did interview with Orlando as well. If you've actually read what I said, I believe it could be health OR spending, and maybe even a combination of both.
    I read it.

    Again, if spending was a possible reason, Bird wouldn't be said to possibly return after he takes care of his health.

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