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Thread: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

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    Default European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    I'm not even close to an expert on it but the general consensus I keep reading is that it is going to devastate the British economy, the young people in general HATE it and the old people seem to have voted it into being. There's also speculation that the entire EU could, conveivably, collapse but I don't know how much validity I put in that. Any thoughts?

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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    no idea, I'm from Crawfordsville. I know what it is but I'm an idiot and have no clue about the long term ramifications of it.

    what I wanna know is why all the fruit flavored candy doesn't taste like the actual fruit. banana, watermelon, cherry, all the great fruits. none of that candy, or juice, or "flavored water,", that does not taste like said fruits. we gotta fix this education gap in food sciences. make fruit flavors great again. I also ran over a cat today, I think, he came from the left and didn't come out the right. so those folks on Walnut Street, hey, keep a better eye one your cat.

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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    I am not European but I work for a company that has a lot of overseas business partners - and they uniformly see it as a nightmare. In the end, the UK may just negotiate an association agreement with Europe that will keep things largely the same, but in the meantime there is a lot of uncertainty, and business hates uncertainty.

    My advice, if you have always wanted to see London go now, generally the exchange rate is brutal but now it is as low as it has ever been in three decades.
    Last edited by idioteque; 06-24-2016 at 03:35 PM.

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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Quote Originally Posted by idioteque View Post
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    I am not European but I work for a company that has a lot of overseas business partners - and they uniformly see it as a nightmare. In the end, the UK may just negotiate an association agreement with Europe that will keep things largely the same, but in the meantime there is a lot of uncertainty, and business hates uncertainty.

    My advice, if you have always wanted to see London go now, generally the exchange rate is brutal but now it is as low as it has ever been in three decades.
    I was in London last year, and am currently in Europe. I was probably going to have to fly out of Heathrow anyway, so I might extend my trip a few days to explore the stuff I missed the first time around in England.

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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    I'd like to hear what our Irish brethren would say, especially with how Scotland and Northern Ireland voted.

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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    I'd like to hear what our Irish brethren would say, especially with how Scotland and Northern Ireland voted.
    Only seeing this now. It's an absolute disaster.

    For those of you who don't know, there is a border that goes through Ireland that splits six of the Ulster counties (called Northern Ireland, which is in the UK) and the remaining 26 are called the republic of Ireland. It will likely lead to border checks again and likely increase sectarian tension in the region which IMO is just what the Unionist (Pro UK) parties want.

    As for the UK, it is an archaic concept that only now people of Scotland and Northern Ireland are realising this. Scotland narrowly lost their referendum for independence only due to massive scaremongering from London. If it is held now, they will win their independence no problem.
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Quote Originally Posted by idioteque View Post
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    I am not European but I work for a company that has a lot of overseas business partners - and they uniformly see it as a nightmare. In the end, the UK may just negotiate an association agreement with Europe that will keep things largely the same, but in the meantime there is a lot of uncertainty, and business hates uncertainty.

    My advice, if you have always wanted to see London go now, generally the exchange rate is brutal but now it is as low as it has ever been in three decades.
    Don't bother. I visited London last week and it's turned into a complete dive. Too expensive to get around, too big, **** pubs, **** restaurants. Avoid. Go somewhere else in Europe, preferably to smaller cities where you won't get ripped off.
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishPacer View Post
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    Don't bother. I visited London last week and it's turned into a complete dive. Too expensive to get around, too big, **** pubs, **** restaurants. Avoid. Go somewhere else in Europe, preferably to smaller cities where you won't get ripped off.
    So what you are saying is it hasn't changed at all. Gotcha. London always felt similar to NYC to me (I have never lived in NYC, but from when I was visiting friends it had a vibe to it I found familiar).

    Generally my feeling was London would be amazing if you were rich, and sucked cause I wasn't.
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    I hope that it makes the EU leadership realize that they're not on the right path. I don't think that the UK will be the last country to leave. I know for a fact that if a referendum about EU membership was to happen in Greece right now there's a good chance that we would vote to leave as well. The EU has to change. It has to become more democratic, more inclusive and it has to do something about the economic inequality that's running rampant in the Union. It cannot keep legislating in favor of big businesses while not giving a rat's *** about its citizens. The vision of a United Europe was based on solidarity between the people and that's not what the current EU is doing.

    In another note, if that leads to Scottish independence and Irish re-unification then that's good. The right of nations to self-determination is a cardinal principle of modern international law.
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    I voted to stay in Europe. A large majority of people who voted out of Europe have done so purely on one or two "facts" that were raised by that campaign and didn't read up or educate themselves on other matters. A number of people who voted out are now regretting it and rightfully so.
    Pacers fan since April 9th 2004 - New Jersey 80 Indiana 90.

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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I hope that it makes the EU leadership realize that they're not on the right path. I don't think that the UK will be the last country to leave. I know for a fact that if a referendum about EU membership was to happen in Greece right now there's a good chance that we would vote to leave as well. The EU has to change. It has to become more democratic, more inclusive and it has to do something about the economic inequality that's running rampant in the Union. It cannot keep legislating in favor of big businesses while not giving a rat's *** about its citizens. The vision of a United Europe was based on solidarity between the people and that's not what the current EU is doing.

    In another note, if that leads to Scottish independence and Irish re-unification then that's good. The right of nations to self-determination is a cardinal principle of modern international law.
    I agree Nuntius. The EU is a flawed entity but the alternative for the UK is much worse.
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishPacer View Post
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    I agree Nuntius. The EU is a flawed entity but the alternative for the UK is much worse.
    If the alternative is people like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson then yes it's worse. But I don't believe that this is the only alternative.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I hope that it makes the EU leadership realize that they're not on the right path. I don't think that the UK will be the last country to leave. I know for a fact that if a referendum about EU membership was to happen in Greece right now there's a good chance that we would vote to leave as well. The EU has to change. It has to become more democratic, more inclusive and it has to do something about the economic inequality that's running rampant in the Union. It cannot keep legislating in favor of big businesses while not giving a rat's *** about its citizens. The vision of a United Europe was based on solidarity between the people and that's not what the current EU is doing.
    I think that's a good solid case for making reforms in the EU. Sadly, it doesn't seem like these were the issues in the minds of most of the people who voted for Brexit.

    Btw, Farage's address to the European Parliament was something else.

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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    I think that's a good solid case for making reforms in the EU. Sadly, it doesn't seem like these were the issues in the minds of most of the people who voted for Brexit.
    I don't live in the UK so I do not know exactly what was said there during the campaign. But yes, from what I've heard a lot of the stuff that they were told was BS.

    Still, I cannot castigate the people who voted to leave since I'd probably also vote to leave if Greece held a similar referendum. Our reasons would be entirely different (and the reasons why you vote what you vote certainly are important) but it would be hypocritical of me to castigate them for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Btw, Farage's address to the European Parliament was something else.
    It's not the first time he has been extremely inflammatory, to be honest.
    Last edited by Nuntius; 06-29-2016 at 04:30 PM.
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Farage is a total opportunist bellend. The Leave campaign never engaged in any sort of debate on what their strategy was for leaving the EU. Just harped on about "immugrints" and made up figures about how much money they'd save outside of the EU. Bureaucrats like Johnson have just used the working classes to seize power for themselves.

    Johnson gave his victory speech to the press the morning of the result outside his f#ckoff mansion. Give me a break.
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishPacer View Post
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    Farage is a total opportunist bellend. The Leave campaign never engaged in any sort of debate on what their strategy was for leaving the EU. Just harped on about "immugrints" and made up figures about how much money they'd save outside of the EU. Bureaucrats like Johnson have just used the working classes to seize power for themselves.

    Johnson gave his victory speech to the press the morning of the result outside his f#ckoff mansion. Give me a break.
    I'm really disappointed that it was people like them that ended up being the face of the Leave campaign. I refuse to believe that everyone who voted to Leave listened to those two tools and wanted to leave due to the BS that those two spewed up. I want to believe that some more serious voices who talked about real issues (like social inequality, austerity and worker's rights) existed within the Leave camp but they just didn't get any publicity.
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I'm really disappointed that it was people like them that ended up being the face of the Leave campaign. I refuse to believe that everyone who voted to Leave listened to those two tools and wanted to leave due to the BS that those two spewed up. I want to believe that some more serious voices who talked about real issues (like social inequality, austerity and worker's rights) existed within the Leave camp but they just didn't get any publicity.
    Issues like worker's rights have never been and never will be at the forefront of the Conservative party's policies regardless of EU membership or not.
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishPacer View Post
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    Issues like worker's rights have never been and never will be at the forefront of the Conservative party's policies regardless of EU membership or not.
    Obviously. I wasn't talking about the Conservative party here. In fact, I was talking about the opposite
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    So now Boris Johnson will not contest the leadership of the Conservatives. What a spineless twat. Leads the ludicrous campaign to leave the EU. Wins. Then let's someone else clean up the mess.
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    It's kind of insane what's happening right now. The Brexit referendum exposed deep divisions between different demographics and different regions. Now all their leaders are going down one by one. It's like Game of Thrones without the bloodshed (well, mostly - a MP was murdered just before the referendum - that was pretty shocking too).

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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-gdnukpolitics

    A long but an excellent and comprehensive read on the state of the UK at the moment.

    These two paragraphs sum it up for me:

    On this point, those who voted remain should, at the very least, concede that had we voted to stay in, the country would not be having this conversation. If remain had won, we would already have returned to pretending that everything was carrying on just fine. Those people who have been forgotten would have stayed forgotten; those communities that have been abandoned would have stayed invisible to all but those who live in them. To insist that they will now suffer most ignores the fact that unless something had changed, they were going to suffer anyway. Those on the remain side who felt they didn’t recognise their own country when they woke up on Friday morning must spare a thought for the pensioner in Redcar or Wolverhampton who has been waking up every morning for the last 30 years, watching factories close and businesses move while the council cuts back services and foreigners arrive, wondering where their world has gone to.

    Many of those who voted leave will undoubtedly feel that they have had their say after years of being ignored. But they are beginning to discover that they have been lied to. Even when it feels that there is nothing left to lose, it turns out that things can always get worse. And even when it feels like nobody tells you the truth, it turns out that some factions of the elite can and will do more damage to your life than others.
    Last edited by IrishPacer; 06-30-2016 at 09:37 AM.
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    I can't really speak on behalf of the UK, but as a fellow European, there are certain things that worry me. The Brexit might have a carry-over effect, which will result in the EU losing more and more power. Not just economically, but also politically. It is a doomsday scenario but diminishing the power of Europe as a whole gives Russia an enormous advantage. They are already at our gate, so to speak. The Baltic states fear that Russia can invade them at any point in time, with nobody around to protect them. The Russians can take control of those countries within 48 hrs if they choose to, they cannot defend themselves. With the whole of Europe more worried about their own, rather than that of the entire group, this is an open invitation for trouble. The political instability will grow and it will become even harder for Europe to respond when Russia decides to do whatever they want. (Not that they are being stopped right now, but it makes it even less likely.) Differences will grow and even though there are things that the EU has to improve, this is a slippery slope that we don't want to go down.

    And just to gain some more info, Nuntius, why would you want grexit? All the media has done here, is inform us about how good it was from the rest of Europe, to lend Greece even more money. Most people feel as if the European nations are throwing there money away, since Greece will never pay them back. This despite the fact that Greece is unwilling to change their tax-lawes, in order for the entire country to start taking care of itself. For instance the fishing-industry, it is supposed to have billions but they are unwilling to use that in their own country, so they don't have to pay taxes for sitting on money, generation after generation. I feel like this cannot actually be what is happening, so can you elaborate some more about the situation from a perspective the media don't show us?
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    Default Re: European Pacer Fans: What do you think of Brexit?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacersgroningen View Post
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    And just to gain some more info, Nuntius, why would you want grexit? All the media has done here, is inform us about how good it was from the rest of Europe, to lend Greece even more money. Most people feel as if the European nations are throwing there money away, since Greece will never pay them back. This despite the fact that Greece is unwilling to change their tax-lawes, in order for the entire country to start taking care of itself. For instance the fishing-industry, it is supposed to have billions but they are unwilling to use that in their own country, so they don't have to pay taxes for sitting on money, generation after generation. I feel like this cannot actually be what is happening, so can you elaborate some more about the situation from a perspective the media don't show us?
    I don't so much want Grexit as much as I would prefer it if Greece had never joined the EU in the first place. What your media doesn't show you is that the money that are supposedly thrown to Greece never actually reach the Greek economy. These money were used to bail-out the banks and then went to allready existing creditors. And I'm not only talking about the Greek banks, by the way. I'm talking about the French banks, the German banks, the British banks and any other bank that's active in Greece's market and holds shares.

    Here's a very interesting paper by ESMT on the subject -> http://static.esmt.org/publications/...s/WP-16-02.pdf

    Here's the conclusion that the two authors of the paper reach:

    This paper provides a descriptive analysis of where the Greek bailout money went since 2010 and finds that, contrary to widely held beliefs, less than 10 billion or a fraction of less than 5% of the overall programme went to the Greek fiscal budget. In contrast, the vast majority of the money went to existing creditors in the form of debt repayments and interest payments. The resulting risk transfer from the private to the public sector and the subsequent risk transfer within the public sector from international organizations such as the ECB and the IMF to European rescue mechanisms such as the ESM still constitute the most important challenge for the goal to achieve a sustainable fiscal situation in Greece.
    The EU is currently supporting a policy of austerity and that's catastrophic for Greece because it's killing our already lackluster production. Basically, as it stands right now Greece will be in an eternal cycle of endless debt with no hope of ever overcoming it. If we left the EU (or even better were never there in the first place) we could devalue our currency, default on our debts, be really poor for a good 10-20 years but then have the hope of getting back on our feet. There's no hope of getting back on our feet in the current situation. Personally, I'd prefer to be dirty poor with the hope of normalizing in the future than be simply poor, having debt and never having the hope of normalizing.

    Also, people have to remember that the EU (as currently structured) heavily favors heavy industry at the expense of agriculture and fishing. TACs (total allowable catches) in fishing and production quotas in agriculture are catastrophic for a country that relies on its primary sector. It's one of the reasons why Norway never entered the EU and one of the reasons why we should have never done it as well (unfortunately, our politicians weren't as smart as Norway's).
    Tonight, all flags must burn, in place of steeples.
    Autonomy must return into the hands of the people.

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