Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

Collison or Hill?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Re: Collison or Hill?

    Collison PER at PG - 13.3... opponent counterpart - 13.6 = -.3

    Hill PER at PG - 14.9... opponent counterpart - 9.2 = +5.7

    Collison definitely stepped his game up in the playoffs... but the stats backup the eye test when it comes to who played better at PG during the regular season.

    Comment


    • #77
      Re: Collison or Hill?

      Originally posted by CJ Jones View Post
      Collison PER at PG - 13.3... opponent counterpart - 13.6 = -.3

      Hill PER at PG - 14.9... opponent counterpart - 9.2 = +5.7

      Collison definitely stepped his game up in the playoffs... but the stats backup the eye test when it comes to who played better at PG during the regular season.
      To be fair, Collison was also matched up with starting point guards for the majority of the season. Out PER-ing Deron Williams is a little more difficult than out PER-ing Sundiata Gaines. You have to take into account the fact that most NBA teams don't have the benefit of having two starting-quality point guards.

      Regardless, I'm just hoping to see fewer parabolic passes from our 1's next season. At times, it looked like the two of them were competing to see whose passes could reach the highest altitude. Lob passes are a much better option when being thrown toward the rim rather than away from it.

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: Collison or Hill?

        Deron Williams starting at PG, DC as the backup, and Hill at backup SG, but able to play PG if we need him to. Keep them all and really make the guard position a strength no matter who is on the court. Unfortunately, it means Inferno will have to find a new home unless he remains the backup SF, which is clearly not his position. But, if he does stay, I really grew to like him this season, and a lineup of DC, Hill, Dahntay is very versatile and would probably help the second unit avoid those terrible scoring droughts.
        It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Collison or Hill?

          Originally posted by ejwallace View Post
          You're kidding here right??? DC has better playoff stats than BOTH Hill and PG24 while averaging only 18 minutes a game where Hill averaged 31 and George average 33....Sure they both out rebounded him, but I don't expect a point guard to double as a top rebounder....I really don't understand this Collison hatred, and all the love for Hill....I will give you that DC is undersized (by only 2 inches), but that is the only advantage that Hill has over Collison....

          Take a look at the stats:

          Collison
          Hill
          PG24

          Hill averaged 5 more PPG and PG24 averaged 1 more PPG, but you give Darren 13 more minutes a game, and you make that gap up...Collison averaged more Steals, Assists, and less Turn Overs per game than Hill, in 60% of the playing time....DC also averaged better FT% and FG% than Hill, and Hill only edged him out on 3p% by .011%....

          Go ahead and check out the PER stats over the playoffs.... DC ranks #11 where Hill's PER comes in at #42...

          You want to compare regular season stats, go ahead....

          Collison
          Hill

          Sure Hill edged DC in both FG%, by .002%, and 3p%, by .005%, but Collison averaged a better FT% by .053%, more rebounds by .1 per game, more assists by 1.9 per game, and more points by .7 per game....While DC did average .9 more turn overs per game, there is nothing substantial that screams that Hill is a better player.

          Hell, let's be honest here....Hill is a younger version of Barbosa, and even they compare statistically to be pretty much a push.....
          I am not showing a hatred for Collison, or a love for Hill. I'm just saying that DC didn't 'badly outplay Hill in the playoffs.' Because he didn't. George Hill closed games, defended the starting point guards, and won us a game with his clutch play in Orlando.

          ...and your last comment leads me to believe that you have something against Hill, whatever it is, making whatever I say useless.

          Comment


          • #80
            Re: Collison or Hill?

            Originally posted by BringJackBack View Post
            ...and your last comment leads me to believe that you have something against Hill, whatever it is, making whatever I say useless.
            I have absolutely nothing against Hill. I like him as a player. I like Barbosa as a player. That comment is securely rooted in the fact that when Barbosa arrived he was highly valued and regarded as a great pickup, helped carry us through some games, hit a slump, and became the scapegoat. Barbosa had a couple bad games, games that we really needed him no doubt, and immediately became the target of MAJOR criticism amongst many on this board.

            Barbosa and Hill have VERY similar styles, WITH THE EXCEPTION that Barbosa is a bit more careless with the ball. In fact, I can remember reading several posts on these forums stating that Barbosa's and Hill's play style are so similar that they shouldn't be on the court together. Bring about Collison's injury, Hill got the nod, and things looked completely different.

            I am not so sure that Collison was benched because Hill was the better player and deserved to start as much as Collison's play style suited the rest of the "energy team" while Hill's style suited the rest of the starting team....
            http://www.nba.com/gamenotes/pacers.pdf

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Collison or Hill?

              If I had to make a choice I would keep Collison. More cost effective and he was able to handle ball pressure better than Hill against Miami. Pick up Nash at a fair salary and use Hill, Tyler, and Granger as trade bait for someone who can score when the opponent tightens the defense. Nash solves two weaknesses with passing and outside shooting. Draft best player available.

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: Collison or Hill?

                =LoneGranger33;1451712]To be fair, Collison was also matched up with starting point guards for the majority of the season. Out PER-ing Deron Williams is a little more difficult than out PER-ing Sundiata Gaines. You have to take into account the fact that most NBA teams don't have the benefit of having two starting-quality point guards.
                Good point, but the same can be said about Darren in the post season though. He played mostly against Duhon and Cole. Both smallish PGs that Darren matches up well with.


                Regardless, I'm just hoping to see fewer parabolic passes from our 1's next season. At times, it looked like the two of them were competing to see whose passes could reach the highest altitude. Lob passes are a much better option when being thrown toward the rim rather than away from it.
                ... Yeah, the pick & pop with D. West was comedy at times. Playing alongside better passers would help his game a ton. He had to do way too much on his own this year.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by ejwallace View Post

                  Barbosa and Hill have VERY similar styles, WITH THE EXCEPTION that Barbosa is a bit more careless with the ball. In fact, I can remember reading several posts on these forums stating that Barbosa's and Hill's play style are so similar that they shouldn't be on the court together. Bring about Collison's injury, Hill got the nod, and things looked completely different.
                  I'm sorry, but I don't see any similarities in style between Barbosa and Hill. Barbosa is pure energy and quickness bordering on out of control. Hill's game is very controlled and smooth. Nothing alike IMO.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Collison or Hill?

                    My opinion for what it's worth: If DC or Hill is the starting point next season, the Pacers make no progress. That makes the argument who is the better backup and that's a pretty easy answer, George Hill. He's probably a competent backup PG and a good 2 guard. He can defend bigger than Darren. You lose DC's energy and that is not to be underestimated, but if you've gone out and gotten a solid PG, someone does indeed have to go.

                    As far as money, if the quibble is over a million or so, pay it. Hill is a known commodity and helps the team locally. IUPUI does matter (a really small bit).

                    The whole argument hinges on the addition of a point. Whom that is probably helps answer the poll question.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: Collison or Hill?

                      I would rather have Collison over Hill because Hill will cost too much and is only marginally better if at all (and I don't like tweeners).

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Collison or Hill?

                        Whoever you think will be:

                        - the better backup PG
                        - the better Guard that can provide solid defense
                        - the better "Break in Case of Emergency" Starting PG
                        - the better "1st Guard" off the bench
                        - possible "6th Man" type of Player

                        is the better option.

                        IMHO.....that is GH.

                        The best way to look at how much to spend on him is how much a Player that is somewhere between "1st Guard" off the bench and a likely "6th Man" will get on the Free Agent Market.

                        I am okay with paying him whatever the Market value is for a Player like GH....even if it is up to $6-7 mil a year. He is the type of Player that I think that Bird and the Simons want on the bench playing between 24 to 28 mpg to fill the above requirements that I would have to be the "1st Guard off the bench".
                        Last edited by CableKC; 05-29-2012, 08:32 PM.
                        Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Collison or Hill?

                          I'm kinda on the fence with either...but if I had to choose, I'd rather pick Hill. My reasons for this decision has been hashed over and over many times on this board...DC's defence...his passing...etc, etc. But my main reason is that I feel Hill is a better starter, and one of Darren's last statements about coming off the bench gave me the impression that he'll ask for a trade before going through another year of subbing.

                          On the flip side though...Hill initially gave me the impression that he didn't want to come to Indy at first. His body language and voice-tone sounded like he was depressed about leaving San Antonio and coming into an unknown commodity as the Pacers. Plus, his price-tag could mean we lose him and last year's pick; which, after watching the first two Western finals games, would somewhat tarnish Bird's exec of the year award, IMO.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Collison or Hill?

                            My first choice is Hill.

                            Without re-hashing what many others have said about each others flaws, I'll go with my reason being that I don't feel that DC is starter material; and his last statement paraphrasing..."I'll be a starter on some team...." makes me feel he'll request a trade if he knows he'll undergo another year of subbing. At least that's the impression I got.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Collison or Hill?

                              For the guys saying Collison will be cheaper than Hill, I'll repeat that Collison is on rookie contract for just one more year. What kind of contract do you think he'll be getting after? How would it compare to Hill's?

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Collison or Hill?

                                I know I'll probably be criticized for this BUT....

                                There is a reason we have kept Lance around and when he gets in the game, granted its garbage time, I can see the potential.

                                IF Lance makes some serious strides this off-season AND we upgrade our PG position we will be better served keeping Hill who can play the 2.

                                Our PG rotations will be a combination of D-Will/Lance/G. Hill and our SG rotations a combination of PG/G. Hill/D. Jones.

                                Ideally I would like to make a trade with Collison similar to what we did for Hill last year. Moving Collison and our pick for a mid-first round pick ideally to take an athletic 3 or 4 who can contribute right away, ala Zeller ,T. Jones, Moe Harkless, Arnett Moultrie. This will bolster our depth and our athleticism.

                                Obviously easier said than done, but I would love to move up in this draft.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X