View Poll Results: Who would you prefer to keep as a Pacer next season?

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  • Darren Collison

    26 29.55%
  • George Hill

    62 70.45%
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Thread: Collison or Hill?

  1. #76

    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    Collison PER at PG - 13.3... opponent counterpart - 13.6 = -.3

    Hill PER at PG - 14.9... opponent counterpart - 9.2 = +5.7

    Collison definitely stepped his game up in the playoffs... but the stats backup the eye test when it comes to who played better at PG during the regular season.

  2. #77
    Member LoneGranger33's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Collison PER at PG - 13.3... opponent counterpart - 13.6 = -.3

    Hill PER at PG - 14.9... opponent counterpart - 9.2 = +5.7

    Collison definitely stepped his game up in the playoffs... but the stats backup the eye test when it comes to who played better at PG during the regular season.
    To be fair, Collison was also matched up with starting point guards for the majority of the season. Out PER-ing Deron Williams is a little more difficult than out PER-ing Sundiata Gaines. You have to take into account the fact that most NBA teams don't have the benefit of having two starting-quality point guards.

    Regardless, I'm just hoping to see fewer parabolic passes from our 1's next season. At times, it looked like the two of them were competing to see whose passes could reach the highest altitude. Lob passes are a much better option when being thrown toward the rim rather than away from it.

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  4. #78
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    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    Deron Williams starting at PG, DC as the backup, and Hill at backup SG, but able to play PG if we need him to. Keep them all and really make the guard position a strength no matter who is on the court. Unfortunately, it means Inferno will have to find a new home unless he remains the backup SF, which is clearly not his position. But, if he does stay, I really grew to like him this season, and a lineup of DC, Hill, Dahntay is very versatile and would probably help the second unit avoid those terrible scoring droughts.
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  5. #79
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by ejwallace View Post
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    You're kidding here right??? DC has better playoff stats than BOTH Hill and PG24 while averaging only 18 minutes a game where Hill averaged 31 and George average 33....Sure they both out rebounded him, but I don't expect a point guard to double as a top rebounder....I really don't understand this Collison hatred, and all the love for Hill....I will give you that DC is undersized (by only 2 inches), but that is the only advantage that Hill has over Collison....

    Take a look at the stats:

    Collison
    Hill
    PG24

    Hill averaged 5 more PPG and PG24 averaged 1 more PPG, but you give Darren 13 more minutes a game, and you make that gap up...Collison averaged more Steals, Assists, and less Turn Overs per game than Hill, in 60% of the playing time....DC also averaged better FT% and FG% than Hill, and Hill only edged him out on 3p% by .011%....

    Go ahead and check out the PER stats over the playoffs.... DC ranks #11 where Hill's PER comes in at #42...

    You want to compare regular season stats, go ahead....

    Collison
    Hill

    Sure Hill edged DC in both FG%, by .002%, and 3p%, by .005%, but Collison averaged a better FT% by .053%, more rebounds by .1 per game, more assists by 1.9 per game, and more points by .7 per game....While DC did average .9 more turn overs per game, there is nothing substantial that screams that Hill is a better player.

    Hell, let's be honest here....Hill is a younger version of Barbosa, and even they compare statistically to be pretty much a push.....
    I am not showing a hatred for Collison, or a love for Hill. I'm just saying that DC didn't 'badly outplay Hill in the playoffs.' Because he didn't. George Hill closed games, defended the starting point guards, and won us a game with his clutch play in Orlando.

    ...and your last comment leads me to believe that you have something against Hill, whatever it is, making whatever I say useless.

  6. #80
    Member ejwallace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    Quote Originally Posted by BringJackBack View Post
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    ...and your last comment leads me to believe that you have something against Hill, whatever it is, making whatever I say useless.
    I have absolutely nothing against Hill. I like him as a player. I like Barbosa as a player. That comment is securely rooted in the fact that when Barbosa arrived he was highly valued and regarded as a great pickup, helped carry us through some games, hit a slump, and became the scapegoat. Barbosa had a couple bad games, games that we really needed him no doubt, and immediately became the target of MAJOR criticism amongst many on this board.

    Barbosa and Hill have VERY similar styles, WITH THE EXCEPTION that Barbosa is a bit more careless with the ball. In fact, I can remember reading several posts on these forums stating that Barbosa's and Hill's play style are so similar that they shouldn't be on the court together. Bring about Collison's injury, Hill got the nod, and things looked completely different.

    I am not so sure that Collison was benched because Hill was the better player and deserved to start as much as Collison's play style suited the rest of the "energy team" while Hill's style suited the rest of the starting team....

  7. #81
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    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    If I had to make a choice I would keep Collison. More cost effective and he was able to handle ball pressure better than Hill against Miami. Pick up Nash at a fair salary and use Hill, Tyler, and Granger as trade bait for someone who can score when the opponent tightens the defense. Nash solves two weaknesses with passing and outside shooting. Draft best player available.

  8. #82

    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    =LoneGranger33;1451712]To be fair, Collison was also matched up with starting point guards for the majority of the season. Out PER-ing Deron Williams is a little more difficult than out PER-ing Sundiata Gaines. You have to take into account the fact that most NBA teams don't have the benefit of having two starting-quality point guards.
    Good point, but the same can be said about Darren in the post season though. He played mostly against Duhon and Cole. Both smallish PGs that Darren matches up well with.


    Regardless, I'm just hoping to see fewer parabolic passes from our 1's next season. At times, it looked like the two of them were competing to see whose passes could reach the highest altitude. Lob passes are a much better option when being thrown toward the rim rather than away from it.
    ... Yeah, the pick & pop with D. West was comedy at times. Playing alongside better passers would help his game a ton. He had to do way too much on his own this year.

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  10. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ejwallace View Post
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    Barbosa and Hill have VERY similar styles, WITH THE EXCEPTION that Barbosa is a bit more careless with the ball. In fact, I can remember reading several posts on these forums stating that Barbosa's and Hill's play style are so similar that they shouldn't be on the court together. Bring about Collison's injury, Hill got the nod, and things looked completely different.
    I'm sorry, but I don't see any similarities in style between Barbosa and Hill. Barbosa is pure energy and quickness bordering on out of control. Hill's game is very controlled and smooth. Nothing alike IMO.

  11. #84
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    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    My opinion for what it's worth: If DC or Hill is the starting point next season, the Pacers make no progress. That makes the argument who is the better backup and that's a pretty easy answer, George Hill. He's probably a competent backup PG and a good 2 guard. He can defend bigger than Darren. You lose DC's energy and that is not to be underestimated, but if you've gone out and gotten a solid PG, someone does indeed have to go.

    As far as money, if the quibble is over a million or so, pay it. Hill is a known commodity and helps the team locally. IUPUI does matter (a really small bit).

    The whole argument hinges on the addition of a point. Whom that is probably helps answer the poll question.

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  13. #85
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    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    I would rather have Collison over Hill because Hill will cost too much and is only marginally better if at all (and I don't like tweeners).

  14. #86
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    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    Whoever you think will be:

    - the better backup PG
    - the better Guard that can provide solid defense
    - the better "Break in Case of Emergency" Starting PG
    - the better "1st Guard" off the bench
    - possible "6th Man" type of Player

    is the better option.

    IMHO.....that is GH.

    The best way to look at how much to spend on him is how much a Player that is somewhere between "1st Guard" off the bench and a likely "6th Man" will get on the Free Agent Market.

    I am okay with paying him whatever the Market value is for a Player like GH....even if it is up to $6-7 mil a year. He is the type of Player that I think that Bird and the Simons want on the bench playing between 24 to 28 mpg to fill the above requirements that I would have to be the "1st Guard off the bench".
    Last edited by CableKC; 05-29-2012 at 08:32 PM.
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  15. #87
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    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    I'm kinda on the fence with either...but if I had to choose, I'd rather pick Hill. My reasons for this decision has been hashed over and over many times on this board...DC's defence...his passing...etc, etc. But my main reason is that I feel Hill is a better starter, and one of Darren's last statements about coming off the bench gave me the impression that he'll ask for a trade before going through another year of subbing.

    On the flip side though...Hill initially gave me the impression that he didn't want to come to Indy at first. His body language and voice-tone sounded like he was depressed about leaving San Antonio and coming into an unknown commodity as the Pacers. Plus, his price-tag could mean we lose him and last year's pick; which, after watching the first two Western finals games, would somewhat tarnish Bird's exec of the year award, IMO.

  16. #88
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    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    My first choice is Hill.

    Without re-hashing what many others have said about each others flaws, I'll go with my reason being that I don't feel that DC is starter material; and his last statement paraphrasing..."I'll be a starter on some team...." makes me feel he'll request a trade if he knows he'll undergo another year of subbing. At least that's the impression I got.

  17. #89
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    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    For the guys saying Collison will be cheaper than Hill, I'll repeat that Collison is on rookie contract for just one more year. What kind of contract do you think he'll be getting after? How would it compare to Hill's?

  18. #90
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    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    I know I'll probably be criticized for this BUT....

    There is a reason we have kept Lance around and when he gets in the game, granted its garbage time, I can see the potential.

    IF Lance makes some serious strides this off-season AND we upgrade our PG position we will be better served keeping Hill who can play the 2.

    Our PG rotations will be a combination of D-Will/Lance/G. Hill and our SG rotations a combination of PG/G. Hill/D. Jones.

    Ideally I would like to make a trade with Collison similar to what we did for Hill last year. Moving Collison and our pick for a mid-first round pick ideally to take an athletic 3 or 4 who can contribute right away, ala Zeller ,T. Jones, Moe Harkless, Arnett Moultrie. This will bolster our depth and our athleticism.

    Obviously easier said than done, but I would love to move up in this draft.

  19. #91

    Default Re: Collison or Hill?

    Good comments from Vogel on Hoopshype today about Hill & DC. Maybe someone could post it here for all to read.

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