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Thread: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    Yeah, but good luck to PG chasing J.J. Redick all around the court on the defensive end.
    I will take that matchup for Paul any day...

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    I actually met some really nice bulls fans that were actually from Chicago that sat in front of me.. Had some nice discussions here and there.. They were very respectful and friendly which is all you can ask from an opposing fan! I was impressed. Was sure to wish them a safe trip back to chicago.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    If Turkoglu plays, I would think he would start even if he's held to limited minutes for conditioning purposes. So Reddick would play a decent chunk of his minutes with the reserve unit, and the chase-around responsibility would fall to Barbosa or Jones if Barbosa sits out. If he's killing us, maybe in the third or fourth quarter Vogel puts PG on Nelson and has Hill chase him around. Hill seems to do a damn good job defensively whether he's on the ball or off.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    What was up with the Hulk sighting (David Harrison)? Does he still live in Indy? Too bad they didn't get an interview with him that would have been interesting.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    I think Bird should resign Lance just because of his improvement on the defense and attitude.

    I do not expect Lance to shoot like he did last night, every night. Scorers do not find it hard to score, they find it hard to score consistently and score when their shot is not falling (going to the foul line).

    I think that if Lance goes back with fg%/3pt% at 42/33, I would be happy. He could easily replace the scoring of Barbosa. But we need a 3pter in the second unit to stretch the defense. Jones has been good, but ideally DC needs to be a volume 3pt shooter. Or he needs to leave.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    I think Bird should resign Lance just because of his improvement on the defense and attitude.

    I do not expect Lance to shoot like he did last night, every night. Scorers do not find it hard to score, they find it hard to score consistently and score when their shot is not falling (going to the foul line).

    I think that if Lance goes back with fg%/3pt% at 42/33, I would be happy. He could easily replace the scoring of Barbosa. But we need a 3pter in the second unit to stretch the defense. Jones has been good, but ideally DC needs to be a volume 3pt shooter. Or he needs to leave.
    We just need to find a big man who can score 10 to 14 points off the bench consistently, and everything else will fall into place with our bench.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Effort wasn't bad, but I thought Lance was not so good defensively on Korver. Not an easy cover, but Korver definitely got it going on Lance. I also thought Rip missed a good number of open shots.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    Effort wasn't bad, but I thought Lance was not so good defensively on Korver. Not an easy cover, but Korver definitely got it going on Lance. I also thought Rip missed a good number of open shots.
    Roy called out Lance once on a missed rotation where Noah got the free backdoor dunk. Lance hit jumpers which made him look all kinds of great.

    Don't get me wrong, I liked his effort on defense regardless of how well he worked the system (hard to be certain) and I couldn't ask much more than to have him draining shots last night. But let's not let one moment of HOT SHOOTING replace the other 95% of the game. He wasn't destroying all aspects across the board, he's still got a ways to go.

    But it's a start.




    The Bulls were hot (well, Boozer and Korver just couldn't miss), but the Pacers got their a****s handed to them ala the Spurs. I mean the games were identical. Both SAS and CHI kept the Pacers at a safe distance the entire time and both teams showed plays that just go deeper and deeper until they find their shot.

    The Pacers would cover the first 5 stages of a Bulls play well, switching, rotating and closing out, and yet there was always another progression in the play for the Bulls to go to....just like the Spurs.

    Last night showed why Pop and Tibs are better coaches than Vogel and better COY candidates. Frank has been a great rah-rah guy and a good basic plan of attack/consistancy guy, and this allows the guys to excel.

    But Frank, Shaw, et al need to expand the plays next season and the players need to step up and match that need by proving they can execute a more sophisticated playbook. At least if they want to compete for a title.


    As sunshiner as I've been, last night was cold water in my face specifically because it was so identical to the SAS game. Teams like Miami and OKC are vulnerable to the Pacers because they often break their systems and just go to 2 star players to do all the creating. I think the Pacers play good enough defense to cope with that.

    And in a sense it's dumb to be too upset that the Pacers aren't CHI or SAS given their standing in the league, but my concern is that the Pacers are in the same mold as those teams (ie, TEAM oriented structure) and are clearly the junior version. Not because of raw talent but because of the lesser complexity and quality of what they do as a group.

    The Bulls and Spurs just don't show many chinks in the SYSTEM armor. This is why the Bulls survived Rose and the Spurs move on as they get older. And they showed that they are much better teams, 7 wins out of 10 meetings type of better.


    I have a small concern that with Dwight out and Hedo back that the Magic will return to running a true system themselves and be more dangerous, not less.




    So why was David Harrison sitting about 10 feet away from me?

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    Effort wasn't bad, but I thought Lance was not so good defensively on Korver. Not an easy cover, but Korver definitely got it going on Lance. I also thought Rip missed a good number of open shots.
    Without Barbosa and Granger it was going to be a bad defensive match-up no matter what. Price is just too short to cover them, and Lance doesn't have a lot of experience getting around NBA illegal pics (not knocking Chicago just knocking what the NBA considers legal).

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Oh and one player I hope they don't retain is Tyler. How many times did the Bulls front line get a dunk on us because Tyler lost his man? Its ridiculous. Swear....Ryan Anderson is gonna have his Career playoff series next week. That dude is a FA no? He gonna end up getting 14 Million a year just based off making Tyler look terrible.
    You know my feelings on this, and your reasoning is one of many that formed that opinion in my head.


    Classic example of another issue, Lou was able to defend one layup (maybe got the block, I forget) and was able to go right back up with a quick 2nd vert to keep the rebound away from the Bulls (who had a shot at it).

    It's that dual skill of both the high vertical near the rim paired with a quick repeat vert that makes Lou very valuable and kills Tyler because he lacks it. Classic Foster was like Lou, and in fact Jeff was one of the quickest verts off the floor I've ever seen. Bigs need to be able to get up above the rim and then go right back up almost as high quickly.

    They also need to have post moves that don't involve a refs whistle (esp. in the playoffs).

    Below the shoulders Tyler chases down the ball like nobody's business, but IMO that's just not enough for the NBA. You have to be able to bulldog for rebounds at rim level too.


    To be fair West isn't exactly "hoppy" himself, but he's got one of the nicest sets of low post moves in the game and is a pretty sharp/smart passer.


    If there were 4-5 games left I'd really want to see more Pendy/Lou in place of Tyler. If for no other reason than to explore that option and find their limits as a pair.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Without Barbosa and Granger it was going to be a bad defensive match-up no matter what. Price is just too short to cover them, and Lance doesn't have a lot of experience getting around NBA illegal pics (not knocking Chicago just knocking what the NBA considers legal).
    That is the one defense I can agree with regarding not having those 2. LB has been playing really smart team defense, he helps well and disrupts lanes, and Danny has size. AJ was at a height disadvantage all the time.

    But on offense Lance gave you about the same shooting that Danny would have so that end didn't feel like a massive hole was there in a what could have been sense, and that concerned me given the output.

    I mean LB hasn't been shooting it well himself and the bench scoring issues continued yet again. With DC coming off the bench and struggling (apart from 3 early jumpers) the bench offense looks like a train wreck lately.

    They are kinda trying to figure out what they can do off of Lou's play, an option that nobody originally thought would be there, but in doing so I think they've asked a bit too much of him and he's struggled.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    The decision to start Lance seems quite shrewd. Boost his confidence against our supposed rivals and give him free reign to shoot and score. Now, he feels like he has something to practice and work for. Instead of him just being a prospect for another year, there is some confidence on both sides that he can make meaningful contributions next year. All accomplished in a game that has no effect on our playoff standings. A tip of the hat to Vogel/Bird.
    It wasn't for confidence. It was because Frank was keeping the same guys together as much as possible and just replacing the missing pieces with deep bench guys. He did the same thing Monday night.

    Lance did well with the moment but don't look too deeply into the reasoning. It was a basic tactical decision based not on Lance but on the other guys who he wanted to keep on the same page and in the same roles.

    I mean there is no debating that DC off the bench is still a work in progress. Hopefully due to injury but possibly not (I'm starting to think).

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Last night showed why Pop and Tibs are better coaches than Vogel and better COY candidates. Frank has been a great rah-rah guy and a good basic plan of attack/consistancy guy, and this allows the guys to excel.

    But Frank, Shaw, et al need to expand the plays next season and the players need to step up and match that need by proving they can execute a more sophisticated playbook. At least if they want to compete for a title.
    In fairness, Pop and Tibs have more experience (Pop in particular, obviously) and both are working with teams that returned most of their core players. I would guess that it doesn't hurt those guys as much to miss training camp and a real pre-season. But someone like Vogel who took over at the end of last year, then got thrown into a lock-out year? I'm still willing to cut him a ton of slack until next year. I am sure he knows they need to expand the playbook.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    It wasn't for confidence. It was because Frank was keeping the same guys together as much as possible and just replacing the missing pieces with deep bench guys. He did the same thing Monday night.

    Lance did well with the moment but don't look too deeply into the reasoning. It was a basic tactical decision based not on Lance but on the other guys who he wanted to keep on the same page and in the same roles.

    I mean there is no debating that DC off the bench is still a work in progress. Hopefully due to injury but possibly not (I'm starting to think).
    Your somewhat right, however he did move Paul George to SF.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    As sunshiner as I've been, last night was cold water in my face specifically because it was so identical to the SAS game. Teams like Miami and OKC are vulnerable to the Pacers because they often break their systems and just go to 2 star players to do all the creating. I think the Pacers play good enough defense to cope with that.

    And in a sense it's dumb to be too upset that the Pacers aren't CHI or SAS given their standing in the league, but my concern is that the Pacers are in the same mold as those teams (ie, TEAM oriented structure) and are clearly the junior version. Not because of raw talent but because of the lesser complexity and quality of what they do as a group.

    The Bulls and Spurs just don't show many chinks in the SYSTEM armor. This is why the Bulls survived Rose and the Spurs move on as they get older. And they showed that they are much better teams, 7 wins out of 10 meetings type of better.
    Frank had to go with simple though. No real preseason and no real time for practice.

    It's also a different game with Barbosa and Granger playing. On defense and offense.

    We can beat those teams in a 7 game series. We're just unlikely to. That's how it's always been.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    Your somewhat right, however he did move Paul George to SF.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
    In the Philly game, George played SF for the 2nd unit. So you could argue he was okay with it because he needs to know the plays for the SF as well.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I mean there is no debating that DC off the bench is still a work in progress. Hopefully due to injury but possibly not (I'm starting to think).
    I like DC, and think he gets too much crap on here.

    But I'd like to see Lance getting backup PG minutes behind George Hill next year.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I like DC, and think he gets too much crap on here.

    But I'd like to see Lance getting backup PG minutes behind George Hill next year.
    Are you saying you think we should move Collison or that we should have Lance play as the "point guard" while Collison plays as the "shooting guard?"

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I mean there is no debating that DC off the bench is still a work in progress. Hopefully due to injury but possibly not (I'm starting to think).
    I said it in the "Hill Is Keeping the Starting Job thread". DC's already shakey confidence was shook too much by losing his starting position. His poor play off the bench is not due to the injury or rust, he only missed what? 6-7 games I think? No his problem now is he has no confidence in himself.

    I was not as critical as DC as others here, I thought he showed a lot of potential. But I could tell all year that he was playing in fear of losing his starting job. Now that his fear has come true, I think DC has lost all confidence in himself. I fear he might never be the same with this team again.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I like DC, and think he gets too much crap on here.

    But I'd like to see Lance getting backup PG minutes behind George Hill next year.


    Lance plays defense off screens exactly like DC but worse. That'd be "no" from me unless something changes drastically.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Frank had to go with simple though. No real preseason and no real time for practice.

    It's also a different game with Barbosa and Granger playing. On defense and offense.

    We can beat those teams in a 7 game series. We're just unlikely to. That's how it's always been.
    Yeah, and to the points you and Gummy are making, I don't disagree with the reasons but that doesn't change the fact that this year Chicago and SAS are the best coached teams. They have talent like other teams do, but the QUALITY of the team basketball they play is just at a higher level.

    Just like Pop and Tibs can't be faulted for not having lower team expectations since it's not their fault. Meaning that Frank has an advantage over them in that regard and they have an advantage of a vet team that knows the plays better.

    Bottom line is that to me Vogel as #3 COY makes sense behind those 2 because those teams aren't just leaning on talent to be good. The Pacers aren't either, but until Frank can get them to that next level of play (unknown if he can yet) he can't be COY and they can't be elite title contenders.

    However in the mold of the 90's team (to 2000) they are structured in a way to be headed toward being that time of team oriented group who develops and works well together.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Yeah, and to the points you and Gummy are making, I don't disagree with the reasons but that doesn't change the fact that this year Chicago and SAS are the best coached teams. They have talent like other teams do, but the QUALITY of the team basketball they play is just at a higher level.

    Just like Pop and Tibs can't be faulted for not having lower team expectations since it's not their fault. Meaning that Frank has an advantage over them in that regard and they have an advantage of a vet team that knows the plays better.

    Bottom line is that to me Vogel as #3 COY makes sense behind those 2 because those teams aren't just leaning on talent to be good. The Pacers aren't either, but until Frank can get them to that next level of play (unknown if he can yet) he can't be COY and they can't be elite title contenders.

    However in the mold of the 90's team (to 2000) they are structured in a way to be headed toward being that time of team oriented group who develops and works well together.
    But COY doesn't necessarily mean best coach just like MVP doesn't necessarily mean best player, otherwise the same few players and coaches would win it every year. I don't have any hard facts but I would imagine COY typically goes to coaches more like Vogel who takes a team from being bad/mediocre to one of the top teams in the league than established coaches on established teams.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    True, but both SAS and CHI have OKC and MIA for expectation comparisons and honestly most people saw SAS as too old for the short season and unable to make this kind of elite team run. Tibs has the loss of the MVP to injury.

    So even by perception standards those 2 are the leading candidates.


    I mean think about this, the team improved this year. Was it due to adding players at an Executive of the Year level or was it due to coaching blah players at a COY level?

    The two contradict each other slightly. The less Larry did to improve the team the more Vogel is COY, and vice versa.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    The Bulls were hot (well, Boozer and Korver just couldn't miss), but the Pacers got their a****s handed to them ala the Spurs. I mean the games were identical. Both SAS and CHI kept the Pacers at a safe distance the entire time and both teams showed plays that just go deeper and deeper until they find their shot.

    The Pacers would cover the first 5... stages of a Bulls play well, switching, rotating and closing out, and yet there was always another progression in the play for the Bulls to go to....just like the Spurs.

    Last night showed why Pop and Tibs are better coaches than Vogel and better COY candidates.
    Frank has been a great rah-rah guy and a good basic plan of attack/consistancy guy, and this allows the guys to excel.

    But Frank, Shaw, et al need to expand the plays next season and the players need to step up and match that need by proving they can execute a more sophisticated playbook. At least if they want to compete for a title.
    Is it because the Bulls and Spurs offense and defense are based more around a "system" that is excellently executed no both ends?

    I'm not sure if that is the right way to put it....but when I look at the how well both Teams play...it's more akin to playing a certain way ( how Pop and Thibs wants them to play on both end of the court ) that....as long as it is executed the proper way....both the Spurs and Bulls will continue to either keep up with your Team or dominate over the course of 4 QTRs on both ends of the floor until your Team simply makes mistakes while they simply advantage at the right time.

    To me..that is the sharp contrast between the way the Bulls and Spurs play...compared to the Heat. Their offense is pretty much centered around....give the ball to Wade or LeDecision...and let them go to work by scoring on their own...or trying to create for others.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Bulls postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Yeah, and to the points you and Gummy are making, I don't disagree with the reasons but that doesn't change the fact that this year Chicago and SAS are the best coached teams. They have talent like other teams do, but the QUALITY of the team basketball they play is just at a higher level.

    Just like Pop and Tibs can't be faulted for not having lower team expectations since it's not their fault. Meaning that Frank has an advantage over them in that regard and they have an advantage of a vet team that knows the plays better.

    Bottom line is that to me Vogel as #3 COY makes sense behind those 2 because those teams aren't just leaning on talent to be good. The Pacers aren't either, but until Frank can get them to that next level of play (unknown if he can yet) he can't be COY and they can't be elite title contenders.

    However in the mold of the 90's team (to 2000) they are structured in a way to be headed toward being that time of team oriented group who develops and works well together.
    But there's a huge advantage in having veteran players who know how to play YOUR system. Meaning, yea, they're probably the "best coached" teams, but that doesn't mean those coaches did the best job this year. They just happen to have the best systems with veteran players who know how to run those systems.

    Vogel hasn't even had a real opportunity to implement his offensive system. What Frank has done this season is honestly remarkable. And before anyone says I'm exaggerating, who thought the Pacers would have the fifth best record in the league, and the third best team in the East?

    I think Frank has done the best job coaching this season. Not because we have the team that runs most like a machine in the league. We don't. But it would have been impossible to expect that from this team.

    That said, I have no issues with Pop getting it. But, it seems like it'll be more like Kobe's MVP - a career achievement award, instead of what actually occurred this season.

    executive of the year? Our biggest aquisition was West (supposedly) - an aging PF who had torn his ACL. Hill was a good trade, but the player drafted has been pretty good for Sass. Barbosa..once again, nice trade, but our second unit was doing darn well without him anyway. All positive acquisitions, but this doesn't take a team from 8th to 3rd without a heck of a coaching job.
    Last edited by Sookie; 04-27-2012 at 07:14 PM.

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