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Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

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  • #1

    Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

    First the game.

    How can anybody who watched that game not understand how valuable Austin Croshere is to that starting unit.

    How do you beat the Pistons? You have to find ways to score. You do not have to out defend them. They have some players who can score but overall as a team they struggle.

    They cannot leave Croshere alone on the floor because if they do he will burn them. Not just by three's but his new found ability to drive & dish. Did anybody else see that drive he he did & passed it behind him with a blind pass to J.O. who got fouled? That was a Magic like pass. How many big shots at the end of games is this guy going to have to hit before people just accept he is the best player to start with J.O.

    He bodied up Rasheed Wallace on several plays & I thought he did an admirable job.

    15 points 6 rebounds 3 steals only 2 fouls with ZERO turnovers. He also had zero assist, but that is because the two he would have had both times the player was fouled before shooting.

    Great solid profesional effort from Croshere.

    Speaking of Great.

    Jamaal Tinsley. Not only did he steal the ball 8 times with 13 points & 8 assist he apperantly was going to sweep up after the game. At least that what I thought he was going to do because I saw him running around with a dust pan latter.

    No, in all seriousness, Tins. just dominated that game. He did so well that I forgot that Billups actually played 40 min.

    David Harrison. Daisy cutters don't clear out as much space as this guy does in the lane. There was a time where literally 5 Pistons were around him & he still cleared out enough space to go up with a shot & get fouled. I've said it before & I'll say it again. Not this year & probably not even next year but if this guy continues to keep himself in shape & has a desire to learn this guy will be one of the dominate centers in the league. This may well be the one great draft picks in our franchise's history.

    Another solid game by J.O. Not much to say on him other than another ho hum 20 point 10+ rebound night.

    Not all was bright though. I don't think Carlisle was all that thrilled with Eddie Gill in the second half (I know I wasn't) & I thought Fred Jones was pretty much just going through the paces.

    Ron & Jax both had points where they made it tough on the Pistons to defend J.O.

    This is the key, IMO, to beating them. You have to have 5 players on the floor who can score or you will be eat alive.

    On the Pistons front. Why must Eldon Cambell & Lindsey Hunter make careers out of being a pain in our asses? These two's eyes light up everytime they see a Pacers uniform.

    Antonio Mcdyess is a ghost of his former self. I thought from reading about how well he was rehabbed that he would be more dynamic than he was. To bad this guy could actually play when he was healthy.

    What can I say about Billups, he's as consistant as a tornado. In the regular season Tinsley owns him. Come playoff time though we'll see.

    Rasheed is a lot stronger than he looks & he is really a crafty defensive player. Age is starting to affect him a little because he just doesn't have the lift he used to but other than that for the next 4-5 years he is going to be a pain in the ***.

    Ben Wallace. What happened to Ben? I used to love his game. This guy could board & block shots better than anybody I had ever seen. But now he just doesn't seem to affect a game as much on the defensive end as he used to. It could be the way Brown uses him so this could be by design.

    Ok that's the game now let's look at the brawl.

    First off I have seen something like this before & probably only Kerosene will be able to appreciate this. It was in 1985 or 86 in Milwaukee & it was not a basketball game but a pro wrestling event. It was an old federation called the A.W.A. & it was a match between the Road Warriors & Baron Von Rashce & Greg Gagne. The road warrior were the bad guys & were just pummeling Gagne & as they tried to leave the armory an absolute brawl ensued with the two warriors fighting their way through probably 20-30 fans to get out & there were probably only 3-4 cops in the hole building. A wooden chair got smashed over a fans head & it was a bloody mess.

    I was also there for the Kings vs. the Pacers fight.

    But I've never seen an N.B.A. event like this.

    This my friends might be the September 11 event for the N.B.A. In that I mean that it will probably never be the same after this. New rules will follow to be sure.

    Let's look at this objectively for a few min. shall we? As Pacers fans it's important that we accept that some of our team did not act right.

    Let's go to the begining.

    Everybody is saying that Ben Wallace shoving Artest started it all. It didn't. This started two plays before when Ron went up for a layup & Ben Wallace inadertantly from behind bumped him causing Ron to fall face first into the basket. Ron could not see that Ben was just getting up for a board & the contact was incidental. Now if you were watching ESPN at halftime you heard Ron complain to Jim Gray that he was being fouled all night & that nothing was being called. Nothing was called on this contact either. Ron was already frustrated.

    Then on the play that follows, before Ron's foul, again if you were watching ESPN you will hear Jamaal talking trash with somebody on the Pistons & he keeps going & going & going. Actually trash talking is not acurate, they were arguing about fouls. I never saw who he was talking with.

    Now we get to the Artest foul. Was it a foul? Yes. Was it a flagrant foul? Probably not. Did Ben overreact? Yes. Would this have been a problem if Artest didn't have the reputation? Probably not.

    Let's not assume for a min. that Ron was some innocent sheep who was blindsided by the master. Ron gave him a mild shove from behind, what did he think Ben Wallace was going to do?

    However it wasn't much of a shove & Ben should have just let the refs. handle it.

    Ron did the right thing in backing away. Ben did the wrong thing in chasing him.

    Rasheed Wallace shoved (not gently removed) Jackson. This cause Jax to get his blood pressure up & started him to bicker with Rasheed.

    It is at this point in time that the Detroit Pistons coaching staff lost control of their team.

    The Pacers bench was stationary & was being held back by Mike Brown, Chuck Person & Kevin O'Neill.

    I counted Derrik Coleman, Darvin Ham, Lindsey Hunter & Eldon Cambell all in their warmups on the floor at the gathering at mid court. I did not see one Pacer who was already not on the floor.

    So right there are 5 one game suspensions by leage definition. Now because of what later happened this may not happend but it should.

    Ron is laying on his back & at this point in time Ben Wallace throws a towel at Ron hitting him in the face. Ron starts to get up but is stopped & put back on his back by Reggie.

    It should be noted that Ron Garitson put Ron on the table. He didn't make him lay down but he did back him up to where his but was on it.

    At this point in time things were under control. Only the Pistons bench was out of line & Stephen Jackson was still angry on our team.

    Ben Wallace would have gotte a two game suspension all five of the Pistons from the bench would have been suspended for one game.

    Ron would probably have been suspended for one game, he wouldn't have really deserved it but I'm sure he would have.

    Then the beer cup was thrown.

    In an ideal world Ron would have stood up grabbed security & pointed out the fan & all we would have finished the game.

    Unfortunately that didn't happen. Ron went into the stands & attacked (of all people) the wrong fan.

    Now before we all wrap ourselves in the Pacers flag & declare absolute support for Ron let's be honest. He was wrong.

    The reason you don't do this is exactly what followed.

    1. He attacked the wrong person.

    2. He escalated an already bad situation.

    When he was laying on his back he was in the right. Stu Jackson would have had to have just outright punished him for being Ron Artest in the dispute with Wallace. By doing this he opens up himself for what might likely be a 10 game suspension.

    It's hard to say. Ron can argue that the league did not provide adaquate security for him so he will have grounds to fight any suspension.

    But either way morally he was wrong. Yes, I know we would all want to retaliate if somebody threw a beer on us. But guess what he should want to retaliate from being shoved in the throat as well but he didn't seem to want a piece of Wallace.

    Jackson was out of control. But again, he is going to have grounds to protest because he was having stuff thrown on him. But clearly Jax was out of control out there.

    Jermaine has got to learn to control himself as well. While everybody was running into the stands it should be noted that Jermaine threw a member of the Pistons security staff over the scorers table. He was just trying to keep players out of the stands.

    Harrison got out there quick & tried to keep the peace.

    Now before my fellow Pacer fans string me up I'm not leaving out the fine people of Michigan. I'm just pointing out some of the things we did that didn't help the situation.

    But rest assured the majority of the blame falls squarly on the shoulders of the idiots in the lower decks of the Palace.

    The guy who threw the beer, if he is a season ticket holder, should lose that seat forever. The big guy with the press pass (or some kind of pass) who kept hitting Fred Jones from behind should go to jail. The two idiots who walked onto the court & acted like they wanted to hit Ron deserved the punch they got.

    Just my luck the one time Jermaine O'Neal actually delivers a good solid punch it's to a man who was getting up off of his back & on top of it all it was the wrong man. But damn it was a solid hit.

    That brawl going out the tunnel was unreal. I will alway smile when I think about Jamaal running around with that dustpan challenging anybody to come at him.

    The other always enduring image of this will always be Austin Croshere standing in the middle of the court with all of the maddness going on around him looking serene & sad. Kind of like a refugee standing amongst the rubble of his village after being bombed. He had that look of "damn I hit a big shot & played great & this is all they will remember".

    I hope that poor old lady that was on the ground was ok cause it didn't look good.

    Did everybody see Mark Boyle with the blood all over his face?

    I suspect the first major change will be that the opponets tunnel will have a covering placed over it so that fans can't see them. This would stop all of the throwing of objects.

    Jermaine, again, was out of control. He could have helped out if he would have just left. The police should have used the pepper spray a lot sooner than they did on the crowds above the runway IMO.

    So, IMO, nobody was innocent. But the fans up in Detroit ultimately were the villans.

    Now what's the fallout.

    Suspensions will fly from this. How many & who will depend.

    I suspect that O'Neal will be gone for more than a few games. Jackson will probably get a few games as well.

    Artest? I'm not sure on this one. He has legitimate defenses against a suspension.

    But here is the upside.

    This will draw this team together. It is now us against the world.

    I'm almost tempeted to start a war cry right here & right now.

    Ah hell I can't help myself, it's time for a speech.

    Close your eyes for a few min. while I go get on my blue & gold war paint.







    Are your peeking?





    I now come before you brothers, we stand together. We are hurt, we are injured, we have taken a pounding but we have not been beaten. The league doens't want us to win. The fans of other citys think we are hicks, fools, hillbillys & rubes. Nobody respects us & nobody wants us around.

    But through it all WE are Pacers & nobody. Not a Piston not a Laker & not a Heat can stand in the way of what is our destiny.

    They can kee us off of network T.V. but they can't take away our freeeeeeeeedooooooooommmmmmm!!!!

    Join me brothers let them all hear us, let them hear a war cry.


    RRRAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Oops sorry, lost my mind there for a min.

    On a serious note, as long as we don't lose J.O. & Ron for most of the season this could help our team moral.
    [edit=110=1100943053][/edit]


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

    Excellent post Peck.

    I really think the "Empty Arena" match should be brought to basketball for a Pacers/Pistons. They can get Jerry Lawler and Terry Funk to do the commentary. I think this idea has legs.

    That was just an ugly, ugly chain of events tonight. Honestly it was scary to watch. It's hard to imagine how the team felt being surrounded by that with essentially only themselves and the people who travel with them around to "count on".

    Tinsley with the dustpan was classic though. I was hoping some other people caught that.
    Mickael Pietrus Le site officiel

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

      Great assessment Peck.

      The shame of all this is the Pacers are going to take the brunt of the punishment when all B. Wallace had to do was step to the line and shoot two free throws and watch the clock run out!!

      B. Wallace loses his cool and the Pacers are going to pay dearly. Just a shame.

      We outplayed and outhustled the defending champs with key players out. Just sick to my stomach right now.

      Water

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

        BTW, it's already started all over the morning news shows.

        It's top story, over Iraq, on the today show Fox & friends & CBS.

        As I suspected, Ron Artest involvement in this is how they lead it off.

        I saw part of an interview with a fan from Detroit on the today show & he said that what the fans did was understandable. What did anybody expect them to do cheer Artest?

        Unreal, but not unexpected.


        Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

          Peck,

          Quick question, how do you know that the guy that Artest pushed down was the wrong guy?

          I have been discussing the event with my wife all morning, and at one point I mentioned that the funny thing was that Ron went after the wrong guy. But then I thought about it for a second, I realized that I had no clue who had thrown that bottle(or cup whatever it was). Ron gets a bottle to the face he gets up and there is a guy pointing and laughing, for all we know it might have been that guy. No?

          I don't fault Ron for what he did. I just hope the NBA doesn't loose it and hand out massive suspensions. I still want a ring this year.

          I know some people don't like what Jackson did. But, what would you do if your teammate was getting swarmed by a bunch of people?

          I guess we are going to have to tell Reggie, Anthony, Jeff, and Pollard to suit up.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

            Mike Breen on ESPN or maybe it was Jim Gray who was very close to location of all this said he went after the wrong fan, and then in the Detroit Papers this morning the fan Ron went after said he was the wrong fan.


            Peck, That was a great, I mean fgreat write up. I have no idea how you can write something so good that soon after the incident, I know I was too emotional about all this.

            The dustpan that Tinsley was waving around was the funniest thing I have ever seen in my life. And seeing Cro standing at midcourt as you described was almost erie.

            But Pieck I agree with everything you said about Artest, Jax, and J.O getting multiple game suspensions.

            But best guess, is J.O will get 2 games.

            Jackson will get 5 games, if he got 10 games, I could understand it. He did nothing to help the situation, he only made it worse from start to finish.

            Artest: I know he has no business commiting a borderline flagrant foul at that point in the game, but then Carlisle had no business having Ron in the game at that point. But Ben Wallace who reminds me of Dale Davis, slow to anger but once they get angry look out, he IMO started the whole thing, until the fans took over.

            I cannot put into words my thoughts on this as it relates to Ron Artest. I guarantee the story is and will be even more so in a few days a Ron Artest story. The sad thing is he was doing the right thing, until the plastic cup of beer hit him in the neck. And I would guess 80% of NBA players at that point would have gone into the stands after the fan after being hit like Artest was.



            One question, ESPN showed a Pacers player near the start of the walkway to the Pacers locker (near where the women was on the ground) but the Pacers player was on the floor. I could not make out who it was. I suspect it might have been Fred Jones, who seemed to get the worst of this whole situation.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

              Mike Breen on ESPN or maybe it was Jim Gray who was very close to location of all this said he went after the wrong fan, and then in the Detroit Papers this morning the fan Ron went after said he was the wrong fan.


              Peck, That was a great, I mean great write up. I have no idea how you can write something so good that soon after the incident, I know I was too emotional about all this.

              The dustpan that Tinsley was waving around was the funniest thing I have ever seen in my life. And seeing Cro standing at midcourt as you described was almost erie.

              But Pieck I agree with everything you said about Artest, Jax, and J.O getting multiple game suspensions.

              But best guess, is J.O will get 2 games.

              Jackson will get 5 games, if he got 10 games, I could understand it. He did nothing to help the situation, he only made it worse from start to finish.

              Artest: I know he has no business commiting a borderline flagrant foul at that point in the game, but then Carlisle had no business having Ron in the game at that point. But Ben Wallace who reminds me of Dale Davis, slow to anger but once they get angry look out, he IMO started the whole thing, until the fans took over.

              I cannot put into words my thoughts on this as it relates to Ron Artest. I guarantee the story is and will be even more so in a few days a Ron Artest story. The sad thing is he was doing the right thing, until the plastic cup of beer hit him in the neck. And I would guess 80% of NBA players at that point would have gone into the stands after the fan after being hit like Artest was.



              One question, ESPN showed a Pacers player near the start of the walkway to the Pacers locker (near where the women was on the ground) but the Pacers player was on the floor. I could not make out who it was. I suspect it might have been Fred Jones, who seemed to get the worst of this whole situation.

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              • #8
                Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

                Watching the tape again, Lindsay Hunter was JAWING at Stephen Jackson as soon as he ran over there when both sides started crowding, and that set Jackson off. I'd been wondering what did, but you can clearly see Hunter jawing and pointing at him, Jack sees it, and gets pissed, which leads seconds later to him running around the pile to essentially "put up his dukes" looking at Hunter.

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                • #9
                  Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

                  Uncle Buck has hit on an excellent point.

                  Why was Ron still in the game? It was clear to anybody that was paying attention that Ron was agitated when Ben didn't get called for a foul.

                  Did you see Ron dunk that ball off of the steal? We all know Ron barley dunks it, but he emphatically dunked that one.

                  At the next foul when Jax went to the line Carlislse should have taken out Ron instead of Cro.

                  James Jones should have been in at this time.

                  Poor decsion by Rick.


                  Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                  • #10
                    Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

                    I think Ron was still in because we had really just put the game away a minute or so before. I'm sure if Rick had thought tempers were flaring he would have pulled him.

                    Tinsley and Cro both had excellent games, as mentioned.

                    I'm still numb from this and can't really form an opinion.

                    I expect the players association to come into play if the league takes a hard line with the players. The players *must* have a right to defend themselves. While Ron was wrong to go into the stands, and I think he should get *something* for that. But after than, I think every player felt very, very in fear of their safety and I don't really fault them for taking action.

                    I will be really disappointed in the league if the biggest sanctions aren't against the Detroit organization for failing to take appropriate measures to protect the players. I think $500,000 would send a pretty good message.
                    You're caught up in the Internet / you think it's such a great asset / but you're wrong, wrong, wrong
                    All that fiber optic gear / still cannot take away the fear / like an island song

                    - Jimmy Buffett

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                    • #11
                      Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

                      Great post Peck.

                      I'm not sure an empty arena game is out of the question here. There are going to be some severe punishments and I think the Piston fans should suffer one of them.

                      Regarding Austin. I saw that same play you mentioned. How could he not get an assist on that basket? It was a great pass.
                      The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

                        Yeah, we don't know who did it. If Jim Gray knows who threw that bottle then he needs to come forward and identify the person.

                        By the way, I really don't think that the fan who threw the bottle is going to come forward, and if he's asked he would deny it ofcourse. Imagine that, they ask you if it was you and you say "yes, this whole thing happened 'cause of me!"

                        Ron gets hit, gets up and there is a guy pointing his finger and laughing. What would you do?
                        [edit=164=1100965790]typo[/edit]

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                        • #13
                          Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

                          I said in another thread, to agree with you Peck.

                          Once all these suspensions are cleared up...once these injuries are done with...watch out. Our guys will truly stand united - with the "us against the world" mentality.

                          As Jackson said "We ride together".

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                          • #14
                            Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

                            Originally posted by ABADays
                            Great post Peck.

                            I'm not sure an empty arena game is out of the question here. There are going to be some severe punishments and I think the Piston fans should suffer one of them.
                            There goes my b-day present...tickete to the game on March.25.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Odd thoughts about a pier 6 brawl......

                              "Just my luck the one time Jermaine O'Neal actually delivers a good solid punch it's to a man who was getting up off of his back & on top of it all it was the wrong man. But damn it was a solid hit."



                              It wasn't the wrong man, if you pay attention that same guy attacked Ron first.

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