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Thread: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

  1. #1
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    Again from a Pistons fan:

    Rick Carlisle stinks at making adjustments. He is a great motivator and gets his team playing hard. Wins a lot. But when you get in a 7 game set, and teams can game plan against you. He doesn't adjust. He is stubborn and I am happy we have LB. Rick is a great coach, but until he learns how to coach in the playoffs, he won't get a team farther than LB would.
    Now, as I was reading that, a little lightbulb went off in my head for a response to squash that, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it, so I've left it alone.

    I've narrowed it down so far to either 1) Brown and Rothstein can make the adjustments if need be. or 2) We're the type of team that doesn't have to make major adjustments because we don't have people who only play D or only play O at major spots in the rotation.

    But, while I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, I could swear that Rick (or at least somebody on this staff) IS making adjustments. I mean like Team X kills us a certain way in the 1st half, and we come out in the 2nd half and counter it. Yet a lot of Pistons fans swear up and down Rick didn't adjust in the playoffs.

    Which is it? What are some examples? What are your thoughts?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    It is widely held that Carlisle drew up all the X's and O's during Bird's tenure as Bird acted more like a figure head than a coach. With that reasoning, then it could already be said that Carlisle has made the adjustments to get a team to the Finals. He did so with the Bird coached team. Hogwash in my opinion.

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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    Quite frankly, we haven't lost enough to blame adjustments or lack thereof. With a team this good and this deep, believe me, if an opportunity presents itself for second guessing how Rick rotates players, we'll hear it.
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    Rick never adjusts. Is that why we have the exact same starters we did at the beginning of the year?

    Oh wait we dont you say.

    Didnt Kenny Anderson start at the beginning of the year what about Pollard? Seems like adjustments to me. How about Freds minutes have they gone up? Why yes they have.

    He didnt make as many adjustments last year because he didnt have the tools to adjust with. Here he does and has.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    The only thing I got from that quote was how ungrateful some Pistons fans can be.

    Personally, I think Rick will do just fine in the playoffs. Coach Brown just won a title with the Spurs, so I think he'll know how to prepare our guys for the run & as for Rothstein, I have no clue, but I have trust in this team.

    Who's to say that ol' Larry won't come down and talk to the players about the playoffs? I wonder how much Reggie has/will tell the others.

    I don't even know if I'm on or off-topic right now, so I'd better stop.

    The only Pistons fan whose opinion I actually pay attention to is Kstat.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    Hicks, I don't know where you keep finding these things, but you need to just laugh it off.

    Granted, Kstat said the same things from time to time and I really respect him, but I think adjustments are overrated to a certain extent
    depending on the type of adjustments.

    I think Rick is as smart or smarter than any coach in the NBA. But maybe he belives in execution and doing the things that got you there.

    I love the way Rick coaches and I mean that in every way possible. If the Pacers lose in this year's playoffs it won't be due to coaching

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    I see the pacers make adjustments all the time every game, within every game, within every quarter of every game.

    I see new plays being run all the time. I particularily liked a new play they ran last night. Basically Ron got the ball at the elbow each time off a pick and roll and cut by Croshere.

    I could list several other new plays

    The defense is always adjusting

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    This is almost comical.

    If there's one thing Carlisle has proven in the last 55 or so games, its that he can and will make adjustements and that he's not the same coach Detroit had because this isn't the same team he had in Detroit. He showed his coaching instinct and ability in Detroit, but everyone is confusing his ability to maximize Detroit's talent with his generic coaching philosophies.

    Its Larry Brown that has exactly one set way of doing things. He's done the same thing for seven franchises and a couple of colleges over the past thirty years. And he'll either force Dumars to do things his way or he'll leave the Pistons earlier than expected and in worse condition than planned.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    I think that it is sour grapes on Detriot's part. From the sounds of things you'ld think that the Pistons were the most talanted team in the league during Rick's tenure and all they needed was the right coach.

    This is a player's league and in the end the team with the best players wins 9 out of 10 times.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  10. #10

    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    I think the Pistons fans were upset last year in the playoffs in the 1st round when Carlisle didn't double team McGrady and when he had Curry guarding him. They feel it was Joe Dumars who forced Carlisle to adjust and play Prince and Okur and both of those guys were instrumental in the comeback against Orlando and in beating the 76ers the next series. So I think they were upset with Carlisle's playoff adjustments and his reluctance to use Prince and Okur not his regular season decisions. About Larry Brown like Jay mentioned he is stubborn set in his ways(successful ways) but he didn't adjust in last years playoffs he played McKie on Prince and Prince killed us until the last game of the series then he went with a bigger defender and put Thomas on Prince and contained Prince that game but it was too late the damage had already been done but its easy to 2nd guess coaching decisions in close playoff games most of the time I believe its unfair criticism.

  11. #11
    Shooter
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    Carlisle has been a head coach for 2 and 1/2 years and already is in a rut?

    I don't think there is anyway in hell you can stereotype an NBA coach in that amount of time.

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    -snip-
    but its easy to 2nd guess coaching decisions in close playoff games most of the time I believe its unfair criticism.
    On the other hand, I give you 'Exhibit A': Isiah Thomas, 2003 Playoffs.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  13. #13
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    Hmmm! Hmmm! At 39-14 it would seem it's the other teams needing to adjust.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    On the other hand, I give you 'Exhibit A': Isiah Thomas, 2003 Playoffs.
    Yeah... If you guys are worried about Rick come playoff time, just remember who could be coaching. Rick is an upgrade over IT,

    If rick can't do it, NO ONE CAN

  15. #15
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    No concerns over adjusting within a playoff series? I don't necissarily have any, but then I don't know either way. I'm a little surprised NO ONE seems to be. Will he make adjustments in the playoffs as needed? Not sure what those would be when it comes to players, however, because our best players are the best O and D guys, so there's not much choice in the matter.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    Hicks,

    We have arguably the best big man in the Eastern Conference.
    We have arguably the best 1on1 defender in the Eastern Conference (maybe even the entire league).
    We have arguably the best 6th man in the Eastern Conference (maybe even the entire league).
    We have arguably the best playoff performer in NBA history.
    We have arguably the best coaching staff in the Eastern Conference (maybe even the entire league).

    Have I left anything out?

    I don't think there's anything to worry about
    [hr]
    I just don't see how this team cannot be able to make adjustments and not make it to the Finals.

  17. #17
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    No concerns over adjusting within a playoff series? I don't necissarily have any, but then I don't know either way. I'm a little surprised NO ONE seems to be. Will he make adjustments in the playoffs as needed? Not sure what those would be when it comes to players, however, because our best players are the best O and D guys, so there's not much choice in the matter.
    Its not the lineup adjustments that matter, in my opinion.

    Its the subtle stuff like (1) trap the pick-and-roll; (2) doubleteam on the pick-and-roll; or (3) switch on the pick-and-roll?

    As far as lineups, I keep saying my only concern is that we're not developing Okur (I mean Brezec) right now. So he definitely won't be ready come playoff time. I don't think Pollard can consistently play at a higher level than he's currently playing, but I think Brezec has that P-word to be better than Pollard but we've almost waited too late in the season for it to matter this year. But seriously, that's the most significant concern I can come up with, so if the concern is whether Pollard or Brezec is your emergency-use-only tenth man, I say "no sweat."
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  18. #18

    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    -snip-
    but its easy to 2nd guess coaching decisions in close playoff games most of the time I believe its unfair criticism.
    On the other hand, I give you 'Exhibit A': Isiah Thomas, 2003 Playoffs.
    Very true Jay, I should have been more specific I think Carlisle is a great coach and Brown who was mentioned is a great coach so I was mainly thinking in terms of the elite coaches the ordinary coaches like Zeke etc,,, they make plenty of mistakes so its fine to be critical of them but the great coaches like Carlisle,Sloan,Brown,Popovich etc.,, manage the game so well that I think its a little unfair to be too critical of them. I should have been more specific but I was thinking in terms of the great coaches only. It would be foolish for me to be critical of LB's decisions during his time with the 76ers because he knew the team and the game infinitely better then myself so I was just thinking in terms of the elite coaches.

    As far as that Pistons fan saying "Carlise stinks at making adjustments". Thats ridiculous what coach has he been watching the last several seasons?

  19. #19
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    -snip-
    but its easy to 2nd guess coaching decisions in close playoff games most of the time I believe its unfair criticism.
    On the other hand, I give you 'Exhibit A': Isiah Thomas, 2003 Playoffs.
    Very true Jay, I should have been more specific I think Carlisle is a great coach and Brown who was mentioned is a great coach so I was mainly thinking in terms of the elite coaches the ordinary coaches like Zeke etc,,, they make plenty of mistakes so its fine to be critical of them but the great coaches like Carlisle,Sloan,Brown,Popovich etc.,, manage the game so well that I think its a little unfair to be too critical of them. I should have been more specific but I was thinking in terms of the great coaches only. It would be foolish for me to be critical of LB's decisions during his time with the 76ers because he knew the team and the game infinitely better then myself so I was just thinking in terms of the elite coaches.

    As far as that Pistons fan saying "Carlise stinks at making adjustments". Thats ridiculous what coach has he been watching the last several seasons?



    Funny avatar. I'm sure G-Rob won't come around here so you're safe!
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  20. #20
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    What type of adjustments are people wanting him to make.

    Why not make the other team adjust to you.

  21. #21
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    Well, pretty much everyone agreed that Birds (Carlisle's) inflexibility was one of our biggest weaknesses in our playoff runs. We'd do our thing, the other team would adjust, and we'd keep doing it, even if it stopped working. Now Rick is a young coach, and it looks like he's getting over that fast. But you could certainly make the argument from history.

    As far as Zeke coaching in last year's playoffs, I thought he did fine. If Reggie, Al, or Brad had shown up in that series, it's a Pacer win. If two of them had shown up, it's a Pacer rout. But all three played like crap. The whole team was waiting for "Playoff Reggie" and they didn't get him. Not Thomas' fault.
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  22. #22
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    Well, pretty much everyone agreed that Birds (Carlisle's) inflexibility was one of our biggest weaknesses in our playoff runs. We'd do our thing, the other team would adjust, and we'd keep doing it, even if it stopped working. Now Rick is a young coach, and it looks like he's getting over that fast. But you could certainly make the argument from history.
    True.

    As far as Zeke coaching in last year's playoffs, I thought he did fine. If Reggie, Al, or Brad had shown up in that series, it's a Pacer win. If two of them had shown up, it's a Pacer rout. But all three played like crap. The whole team was waiting for "Playoff Reggie" and they didn't get him. Not Thomas' fault.
    Now you've lost me... Did you watch the end of game #1? The coach ran out of timeouts and "playoff Reggie" was on the bench. The only way we could get him into the game would be to stop the clock - and how do you stop the clock when you've got the ball? (hint: intentional turnover). But since you're down, in the last minute, an intentional turnover is a bad idea. Worst in-game coaching I've ever seen. Period. (It would be another story if we scored out of just one of the wasted timeouts.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  23. #23
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    Well, pretty much everyone agreed that Birds (Carlisle's) inflexibility was one of our biggest weaknesses in our playoff runs. We'd do our thing, the other team would adjust, and we'd keep doing it, even if it stopped working. Now Rick is a young coach, and it looks like he's getting over that fast. But you could certainly make the argument from history.

    I don't want to go back 4 years and discuss what happened then, but to the extent that it applies to the discussion now and the current Pacers team.

    I must say I don't agree that Well, pretty much everyone agreed that Birds (Carlisle's) inflexibility was one of our biggest weaknesses in our playoff runs.

    Don't agree with that at all.

  24. #24
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another criticism of Carlise I'd like to address with you guys:

    I don't want to go back 4 years and discuss what happened then, but to the extent that it applies to the discussion now and the current Pacers team.

    I must say I don't agree that:

    Well, pretty much everyone agreed that Birds (Carlisle's) inflexibility was one of our biggest weaknesses in our playoff runs.
    Don't agree with that at all.
    I will, because I think there's one compelling point here (so please forgive the long setup before I get to it ):

    Early on, Bird seemed completely "set" in making the other teams adjust to us. He did become more flexible by the third season, in particular because of our lack of a response to the surprising performances of Kukoc and Camby in the 1998 and 1999 ECFs.

    With one exception, I also don't see any benefit of pointing out any specific examples. But Bird eventually became so flexible that we tried-and-failed at Hack-a-Shaq in the NBA Finals. Just a week before, when Portland tried-and-failed, I was telling everybody that would listen, "Nah, Bird's too stubborn to fool around with that Hack-a-Shaq silliness."

    Its all relative, that team didn't have many weaknesses, period. But I would rank Bird's lack of flexibility in the 1999 ECF as being a bigger reason for why San Antonio won that championship than Jess Kersey's one bad call.

    Most importantly, after observing Carlisle this season, I believe that had more to do with Bird's personality than anything else. I can't prove this but I'll bet Carlisle was whispering potential adjustments into Bird's ear and Bird was saying, "No, let's stick the gameplan. We thought it was right before so there's no benefit in messing with it now." Because it was *at least* somewhat successful, that lesson has probably prevented Carlisle from making the same mistake many young coaches make - too much flexibility and too many big changes.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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