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Thread: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

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    Member rabid's Avatar
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    Default If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    All this micro-analyzing of each individual move in a vacuum is getting really irritating. It seems like people can't see the forest for the trees here and are especially ticked about the apparent salary dump of DC/DJ.

    However, the net effect of all the moves we've made (which is all I'm interested in really) is exactly the same as if we'd (hypothetically) traded DC and DJ for Mahinmi, Green, and Augustin under the contracts they all just got.

    So I have a little thought experiment here. If our FA acquisitions so far had been done in some parallel universe as a single trade with a team that had all of these players - a trade of, say, Collison/Jones + cash for Mahinmi/Green/Augustin, or something similar (I'm not a trade guru) - would people feel differently?

    I'm kind of on the fence personally. I feel like overall we've gotten better but I wonder if we maybe slightly underachieved in terms of what we got back.

    So I'm wondering: for those feeling negative about one or more of our individual FA moves, would you feel any better about it if it had been one big move (which would force you to consider the overall value of what we gave up and what we got in return?)

    (BTW this is obviously hypothetical, I realize the salaries wouldn't match etc., that's not really my point)

    -------

    Edit: What I'm trying to do is force a big-picture viewpoint here on posters who have been fixated on one or two individual transactions without perhaps considering how they were related...
    Last edited by rabid; 07-13-2012 at 06:57 PM.

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    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Just because you make a couple of good moves does not mean you should make a horrible one to "even things out."

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    To answer the question, I think it makes us maybe slightly better overall (would have been significantly worse if we hadn't gotten Augustin). However, it isn't enough to compete for a championship, so I have to question whether TPTB are content with mearly being a highly-seeded playoff team. I don't know about you guys, but that doesn't sit well with me.

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    Member rabid's Avatar
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    EDIT: So what could have been done, that we didn't do, to make us compete for a championship this year?

    I mean you could have made the same argument in any given year - "this team isn't good enought to win a championship", but was it possible this year? Is it not enough to get progressively better each year?

    Not a rhetorical question BTW, I'm geniunely curious..
    Last edited by rabid; 07-13-2012 at 07:01 PM.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Just because you make a couple of good moves does not mean you should make a horrible one to "even things out."
    What's so horrible about it? I fail to see it. We got a backup center on a mild contract, and DC is not a star. Suddenly everyone is acting like our backup PG that struggled to defend, distribute and made bad decisions on fast breaks is suddenly worth of holding onto to snag something spectacular. I just don't get it. Collison has been 'meh'. Dahntay was 'meh', and "omg that's terrible" half the time.

    This sudden belief that either was going to command some supreme price is kinda silly.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    What's so horrible about it? I fail to see it. We got a backup center on a mild contract, and DC is not a star. Suddenly everyone is acting like our backup PG that struggled to defend, distribute and made bad decisions on fast breaks is suddenly worth of holding onto to snag something spectacular. I just don't get it. Collison has been 'meh'. Dahntay was 'meh', and "omg that's terrible" half the time.

    This sudden belief that either was going to command some supreme price is kinda silly.
    If anything, DC's stock went up due to his performance in the Miami series.

    For this trade to be a win, Ian is going to have to be a LOT better than I think he is.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Shade the whole point of this thread is to try and force you to consider these moves COLLECTIVELY as if they were a single move.

    I agree that by itself the DC/DJ for Mahinmi trade does not look great.

    But that salary dump allowed us to sign Green and Augustin without really affecting our cap. This is my whole point, that move wasn't done in a vacuum. To really evaluate what we did you kind of have to judge all the moves together IMO...

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    Also, that salary dump allowed us to sign Green and Augustin without really affecting our cap. This is my whole point, that move wasn't done in a vacuum. To really evaluate what we did you kind of have to judge all the moves together IMO...
    We didn't even have a deal worked out with Augustin when the trade went down. Nor Green either, I believe.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    If anything, DC's stock went up due to his performance in the Miami series.

    For this trade to be a win, Ian is going to have to be a LOT better than I think he is.
    I was OK with the trade until I got to read more about Mahinmi and got to hear the interview of people from Dallas, I was also hoping that the cap space we gained with the trade was going to net us Scola or Brand so that didn't happen so I'm down on the trade now.

    edit: And also now if you look at the team, I don't think we have any young players that people want, Mahinmi with a 4 years contract? no, Green with a 3 years contract? no, Tyler? hell no, Plumlee? please, Pendergraph? lol, Lance? maybe?, now we don't have cap space or pieces to trade.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 07-13-2012 at 07:13 PM.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    We didn't even have a deal worked out with Augustin when the trade went down. Nor Green either, I believe.
    We don't know that, do we?

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    So you don't think we had thought about either of those moves when we did the Dallas trade? Everything happened within a day or two right?

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    If anything, DC's stock went up due to his performance in the Miami series.

    For this trade to be a win, Ian is going to have to be a LOT better than I think he is.
    According to who? You? Are you privy to all that happened in the office? You know what front offices think about Collison?

    I fail to see how one series against a team with a known weakness at PG, and very bad backup PG (Duhon), who DC harassed into making mistakes suddenly makes him some enviable piece. When DC can harass Deron, Nash, Rondo and CP3 into mistakes maybe you've got something.

    You are assuming way, way too much.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
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    We don't know that, do we?
    We know that nothing was worked out with Augustin prior to the trade.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    You guys are kind of proving my point in that you're refusing to consider these moves as pieces of a whole strategy. Instead you're analyzing each one as if they're not related. Even as a pretty naive observer these moves look somewhat coordinated to me... and doesn't Pritchard have a big reputation for these "domino"-type moves?

    Like I said, forest... trees...

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    According to who? You? Are you privy to all that happened in the office? You know what front offices think about Collison?

    I fail to see how one series against a team with a known weakness at PG, and very bad backup PG (Duhon), who DC harassed into making mistakes suddenly makes him some enviable piece. When DC can harass Deron, Nash, Rondo and CP3 into mistakes maybe you've got something.

    You are assuming way, way too much.
    It's just common sense. It wasn't long ago that DC was being touted as a possible replacement for CP3.

    Players have "value memory," especially in the NBA. Hell, the Lakers are trying to get JO, who has been just terrible for at least two years now.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    You guys are kind of proving my point in that you're refusing to consider these moves as pieces of a whole strategy. Instead you're analyzing each one as if they're not related. Even as a pretty naive observer these moves look somewhat coordinated to me... and doesn't Pritchard have a big reputation for these "domino"-type moves?

    Like I said, forest... trees...
    Just because you can see the forest for the trees doesn't mean you have to cut down a few perfectly good trees in the process.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Anyway, this team is most certainly different, and maybe better. Only time will tell, you can like or dislike the moves but I fail to see how anyone can know one way or the other.

    Everyone we gave up had question marks, but the guys we got back all have some too. Can Mahinmi play PF? Which I think would be huge. Is Gerald Green a half season wonder? Will being much further down on the offensive totem pole increase Augustin's efficiency?

    We really don't know, but we can guess.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    In
    PG Augustin
    SG Johnson
    SF Green
    PF/C Mahinmi
    PF/C Plumlee

    (Likely) Out
    PG Collison
    SG Barbosa
    SF Jones
    PF/C Amundson
    C Fesenko
    PG Price

    This isn't much of an answer but, overall I think we pretty much have the same level of talent coming in as going out. My feeling is the front office expects us to develop with age and experience, so the need to make major upgrades in talent isn't really necessary. Odviously this isn't what most fans are gonna be happy with (we don't want to be the Hawks), but at least (in my eyes) we didn't get worse...

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  31. #19
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    It's just common sense. It wasn't long ago that DC was being touted as a possible replacement for CP3.

    Players have "value memory," especially in the NBA. Hell, the Lakers are trying to get JO, who has been just terrible for at least two years now.
    We'll see when Collison is a free agent. I would bet he gets near what DJ Augustin just got, except maybe more years. He had several holes in his game, and they were clearly exposed here. Media is making it sound like we traded Magic Johnson or something, but the media are generally not so smart. GM's know Collison has a bunch of holes. They've seen the same film I have. Nobody was going to offer much for him.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    We know that nothing was worked out with Augustin prior to the trade.
    well we know we were trying to trade for Augustin at the same time (multiple writers said this). Also the charlotte beat writer soon came out saying how they would most likely be withdrawing their offer to Augustin. And Pritchard said no more than 5 mins went past in him becoming a UFA to being contacted by our FO. If the beat writer knows they will withdraw their offer, so does the Pacers FO, especially when they were trying to trade him. thats why we were first to talk to him and talked to him immediately.

    The chances of us not getting Augustin were slim to none after the DC trade. The Pacers were all over Augustin, whether it be via trade our free agency.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Just because you can see the forest for the trees doesn't mean you have to cut down a few perfectly good trees in the process.
    You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs!

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    You guys are kind of proving my point in that you're refusing to consider these moves as pieces of a whole strategy. Instead you're analyzing each one as if they're not related. Even as a pretty naive observer these moves look somewhat coordinated to me... and doesn't Pritchard have a big reputation for these "domino"-type moves?

    Like I said, forest... trees...
    Actually the more I think about the whole picture the more it sucks, I was happy about the trade yesterday because I thought something else was coming next, now we used the whole cap space and are pretty close to what we had before, now we don't even have cap space to make anything else happen so for the mean time we are set until next year.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    It's just common sense. It wasn't long ago that DC was being touted as a possible replacement for CP3.

    Players have "value memory," especially in the NBA. Hell, the Lakers are trying to get JO, who has been just terrible for at least two years now.
    It wasn't long ago that Adam Morrison was the third pick in the NBA Draft. People are often wrong when evaluating talent.

    And JO hasn't been terrible the last two years. He's been a solid big man. Thats why he was the starting C for the Celtics. His problem wasn't his play, it was his knees.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    I think the guys we received have more upside and room for growth then the guys we gave up. Whether that comes to fruition, remains to be seen, but I could easily see any one of Mahinmi, Augustin, and Green improving as players with us. I don't really see that as much with Collison, Jones, and Amundson who have more than likely capped out as players.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    The Mavs trade should be looked at in a vacuum. It wasn't part of a larger trade it the moves and salary dump weren't necessary to complete the other trades. In a vacuum this was a bad trade and just bad business to give up assets that we didn't have to for nothing. NY was interested in Jones for a second and I really think we could have landed a 1st. for DC. He'll be the starting pg in Dallas, that's worth something.

    Overall I think we became marginally better but not as much as we should have considering the opportunities that were there. I can fully understand not getting Williams and Nash, but Kaman was there if we wanted him. Since we didn't even use the cap space we had, I'd much rather have Kaman at 8 mil playing 30 min. between the 4/5 and giving us a double double then the combination of Ian and Hans. playing those minutes.
    We could have still afforded all the other moves and been under the LT while moving Jones and DC for assets.
    In the end we spent a lot of money on a bunch of mediocre players which is the last thing I wanted for this team. We're a little better and could have easily been a lot better for the same money or at least had some future picks coming our way. We didn't even make a minor change in signing Hibbert and Hill to make a run at Scola. I'm very disappointed in our new front office.

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