Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

  1. #1
    Member indyblue47's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Lebanon, Indiana
    Posts
    260

    Default What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story...r-middle-class

    The Indiana Pacers entered the weekend in the thick of the battle for the third seed in the Eastern Conference, which is a little bit like being the fourth Stooge, the fifth Beatle or the sixth man on the Fab Five. Nevertheless, the Pacers have been one of the league's most improved teams, and their coach, Frank Vogel, has risen from being Rick Pitino's video coordinator in Boston to a coach of the year candidate in his first full season as the head honcho in Indianapolis.

    The Pacers have established themselves as rising powers in the East, but they have a lot at stake over the last four weeks of the regular season. Indiana has a slightly better point differential than Orlando, the current 3-seed, but the Magic has faced a tougher schedule. Indiana also has to worry about the cluster of teams behind it, a mixed bag of squads including Atlanta, Boston and Philadelphia. The Pacers could finish anywhere from third to seventh in the final playoff standings.

    Still, the Pacers are winning at a rate that equates to 49-33 over a full season, quite a step up from the 37-45 mark that squeezed them into the postseason last year. While the playoff berth was mostly a function of a shallow conference -- of 532 playoff teams since the ABA merger, only nine posted a lower winning percentage -- Indiana did put up a spirited battled against the top-seeded Bulls in the first round.

    Pacers president Larry Bird seemingly has his club in an enviable position. Despite the additions of veterans David West, George Hill, Louis Amundson and Leandro Barbosa since the end of last season, Indiana is still about $7 million under this season's salary cap figure. Bird has constructed one of the league's deepest rosters and has a solid core of players who should just be entering their prime seasons. During the offseason, Bird will have to make decisions on restricted free-agents-to-be Hill and Roy Hibbert, but the recently acquired Barbosa comes off the books and there should be plenty of cash on hand.

    However, as promising as the outlook in Indiana may appear right now, the Pacers do run the risk of getting trapped in the NBA's upper-middle class -- close to contender status, but not quite on the level of the league's elite -- if they can't add a star talent.

    Indiana's rebuilding project has been different from those of the Oklahoma City Thunder and Chicago Bulls. After the Ron Artest-Reggie Miller-Jermaine O'Neal Pacers topped out at 61 wins in 2003-04, Indiana went on a seven-year run of mediocrity. The Pacers won between 32 and 44 games each season, made the postseason three times and won just one playoff series. There was plenty of bad payroll, with the team locked into long-term contracts to middling players like Troy Murphy and Mike Dunleavy Jr. The team was thoroughly mired in the league's no-man's-land -- the middle -- and attendance waned accordingly.

    While wrestling with a difficult cap position, Bird managed to draft well even though the Pacers haven't had a single-digit draft pick in 23 years. (The last was George McCloud, taken seventh in 1989.) Bird added Paul George (10th in 2010), Tyler Hansbrough (13th, 2009) and Danny Granger (17th, 2005) from uninviting draft slots, and sent O'Neal in a 2008 post-draft trade to Toronto for Hibbert. Darren Collison was brought in from New Orleans in a four-team deal that got Murphy off his books. Bird built this young base while avoiding further bad investments, setting up the current cap windfall.

    Bird followed more of a Chicago model of rebuilding than the OKC version, albeit with one key difference. Before their current ascension, the Bulls waited out some iffy contracts while building a young base of talent that included Joakim Noah, Luol Deng, Tyrus Thomas, Ben Gordon, Thabo Sefolosha and Chris Duhon. As the young chips were moved around, a careful eye was kept on the free agent-rich summer of 2010. While Chicago missed a chance at the big guns from that class, its Plan B fell into place nicely as team architects John Paxson and Gar Forman built the team's deepest and most versatile roster.

    Of course, in both the cases of Indiana and Chicago, the depth-over-stars approach was a product of necessity. The Pacers had to take this path because of their consistently middle-of-the-road draft position and the fact that top free agents haven't conspired to play in Indianapolis. If either club had been able to add a Kevin Durant through the draft or LeBron James through free agency, they would have leaped at the opportunity.

    You might think we've overlooked a key facet of the Bulls' rebuilding efforts. We haven't. When you compare the Bulls and Pacers, the biggest difference is that Derrick Rose plays for the Bulls. Chicago parlayed an injury-riddled and underachieving 33-49 record in 2007-08 season into the top pick of the next draft. The Pacers were just three games better that season, yet selected 11th and took Jerryd Bayless.

    That's why, even though the Pacers are enjoying their best season in years, you have to wonder whether they are in danger of settling into the league's upper-middle class. That might be better than lower-middle class, but it's still the middle, and in the NBA, it's easy to get lulled into acceptance of a second-round upside. Indiana looks exceptionally strong at roster spots 3-10, perhaps even 2-10 depending on how you view Danny Granger. It's that centerpiece, that ornament atop the tree that is lacking, and it's awfully hard to acquire it once you've improved beyond a certain point.

    The Bulls got lucky, but they still managed to construct a roster not only perfectly suited to work with Rose, but one that has proved it can win consistently even when their reigning MVP is injured. The Thunder may have been the smartest guys in the room as their dynamic roster was built, but it still started with the No. 2 pick that yielded Durant. That's the step that Indiana skipped while wallowing in the middle all those years.

    [+] EnlargePaul George
    Glenn James/NBAE/Getty ImagesPaul George, 22, has tremendous potential, but some of the Pacers' other big-time contributors are getting older.

    The Pacers aren't as young as you think. Their weighted-minutes age places them firmly in the middle of the league pack. George leads the team in WARP and is just 22 years old, while Hibbert is right behind him at 25. However, Granger turns 29 next month and his career trajectory has leveled out at a tier or two below All-Star level. Fourth in team WARP is David West, who is nearly 32.

    In interviews, Vogel has insisted that his roster "has no ceiling." George has plenty of room to grow, but he's likely on an Andre Iguodala path where he dominates in most categories but isn't an offensive centerpiece. Hibbert is a solid player at a position of scarcity, but may be nearing the upper limits of what he can produce. Beyond these players, you have solid role contributors, but no one who is going to push the team into the elite.

    While the Pacers aren't generally considered to be a likely landing point for franchise-type free agents, there may be a couple of opportunities to leverage hometown ties to bring back available players who were once won the coveted Indiana "Mr. Basketball" award: Eric Gordon and Greg Oden.

    After Gordon rejected New Orleans' offer of a contract extension in January, rumors ran rampant that the Pacers would pursue the Indianapolis native this summer. That may be true, but it's difficult to pry a top-notch restricted free agent from a club that really wants to keep him. (Remember DeAndre Jordan?) The Hornets are likely to match any offer Gordon gets.

    However, while complicated, it's possible to work a sign-and-trade deal with a restricted free agent. If you assume that Gordon is the centerpiece player you want -- and it's far from given that he's that kind of player -- then perhaps the Hornets would take Granger and some sweetener in return. Then you could move George back to small forward. But would the Hornets want a 29-year-old to head up a rebuilding effort? In seems likely that the Pacers would have to give up George, which makes the whole much less palatable.

    The second player the Pacers might look at is Oden, who was released recently by Portland and has been said to be interested in returning to Indiana. If he's interested in doing so under a team-friendly deal, it's a no-brainer. While the odds of Oden becoming the game-changing defender and rebounder he once seemed destined to become are long, there is absolutely no downside to bringing him on as a 15th man to rehabilitate from his latest pair of surgeries. The potential gain is immense, and at the very least it would be a popular move with the fan base.

    The Pacers won't be an easy out in the postseason this year, but it would be shocking to see them beat either Miami or Chicago in a seven-game series. Then what? How does Bird take the next step? Franchise players don't grow on trees, and unless Larry Legend can somehow pluck one from the ether, Pacers fans might as well get used to this season. Because it's exactly like the one they'll enjoy for the next three to four years.

    Bradford Doolittle is an author for Basketball Prospectus. Follow him on Twitter @bbdoolittle.

  2. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to indyblue47 For This Useful Post:


  3. #2

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    the Pacers haven't had a single-digit draft pick in 23 years.
    That's absolutely unreal.

    Just looking quickly at basketball reference, the only other team that has a longer streak is the Lakers who got Worthy with the first pick in 82.
    Last edited by King Tuts Tomb; 04-02-2012 at 11:26 AM.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to King Tuts Tomb For This Useful Post:


  5. #3
    Undefeated
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Carmel
    Age
    36
    Posts
    674

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    I'm pretty sure George is 21, not 22...

    Just looked it up, and he is 21, and he has the same birthday as me, which is cool.
    Danger Zone

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Rogco For This Useful Post:


  7. #4
    Member ksuttonjr76's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Marion, IA
    Posts
    3,119

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Good article. Hopefully, Paul George and Roy Hibbert will continue to develop into All-Star type players. I would really hate to be "that team" which was always close, but was constantly turned back by Chicago and Miami.

  8. #5

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Tell me something that hasb't been said for the whole season!!!
    The Pacers are that chick that's an 9 in a room full of 10's.
    They will always try to make us seem like eh you're not that cute.

    While this team isn't flashy we aren't bad wither. Which Pisses me off.
    We have fought hard for this record. These Wins weren't handed to us,
    we have played some tough ball and have WON. We have beaten some
    good teams. As we have lost to some others who we should not have.


    This is our first year when this roster was assembled. We have made moves..
    We don't have a Durant or Westbrook! But who the hell does? those guys are insnanely dynamic. They lead the league in 20+ games in the last 2 years with 73. Wade and Lebron are second with 63 and Paul and Kobe come in 3rd with 44 IIRC.

    Why not look at the positives instead of the negatives. Roy has grown in the last few years. His HOOK is unguardable. When he is on he is the 2nd-3rd best center in the league. Even when his offensive isn't there, He is a defensive monster. He protects the paint well. No one ever mentions his defense which has vastly improved. He use to be a fouling machine and now rarely gets into foul trouble. He is seond to Surge in BLOCKS PER GAME. He hasn't reached his potential yet! for his game is Growimg every night. He is a tough SOB and will give you his all. There isn't a game where you can say! Roy didn't give hit his all.
    There are games where he is fatigue or just plain off. But he will leave his heart out there.

    George why is his ceiling only Andre??? And what the hell is wrong with that comparison? dude is a defensive force. He is a defensive anchor who can shut down the oppenents best player. People make it seem like Andre is garbage, like oh yea Paul hmmmm he's nice and all but I see AI type potential.
    For all we know George could be worse or better. Too early to tell. But his offensive game is more polished than AI's game at their point of their careers.

    Writters act like Paul hasn't gotten better. Dude has increased his 3 point % by a 10x fold. He is learning at a rapid pace as well. Just because he isn't dropping30-20 every night doesn't make him bad. His focus is to play defense! set the tone and crash the boards.. He isn't being asked to drop points. As we have seen... He can at times.. But when he is asked he has choked. He's rhythm player.. He is learning and has showed great potential. Also, he has learned the Euro step(It's a treat to watch).. That is very very underated. He also isn't getting any calls.. There has been some BS offensive fouls calls on him.
    George is everything we could have dreamed about and then some. People want KD type numbers from a 10 overall pick lol and a raw prospect!

    His handles have also gotten so much better it's crazy. It's like if George was a freaking super saiyan! he's taking his weakness and making it his strenght. Dude is also driving more and more. Love that Euro Step, it's very effective. Year 3 should make george a house hold name. He can do eveything. Score and defend on a high level. I just love reading boards and oppenents getting a hard one over Paul. He flies all over the court. Just needs to work on consistency because that's what seperates the greats from the rest.

    I'll just enjoy our team while we keep beating these teams that are filled with super stars.. Love the way this team is being built.. We can keep adding and growing players thru the draft as we have done..


    By me ^^

  9. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to picasso For This Useful Post:


  10. #6
    Rooting My Family 2 Glory CooperManning's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    1,276

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Rings:

    Lebron James, Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant, Danny Granger: 0

  11. #7
    Member TOP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    1,854

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Rings:

    Lebron James, Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant, Danny Granger: 0
    Lebron is close to Danny in age. Durant and Rose are still half a decade younger. Granger isn't exactly old which means they're young. I like where you went with this since I'm on the Granger train. He's older though and has never been in the MVP running/been on the best team in the NBA. That doesn't mean I'm not ruling him out! ! ! ! . Dirk, Pierce, KG, Allen etc. didn't get theirs until they were older. I'm in the minority that won't rule out Granger's impact in the long haul. I would love it if we some how won a championship with him like the Mavs did with Dirk and the Celtics did with Pierce. Shove it in the faces of those who doubted. I'm sure they'd love having it shoved in their face

  12. #8
    Lifelong Pacer Fan. PGisthefuture's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Crawfordsville, IN
    Posts
    2,498

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    I already posted this article.

  13. #9
    Member PR07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    4,066

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    I'm not sure this team absolutely needs a superstar. Sure, they could use a closer, but that is not the same thing. Jamaal Crawford is a pretty good closer for NBA standards, but he's not a superstar. Meanwhile, I can't help but think the blueprint of this team is the Detroit Pistons' fairly recent championship, defense, toughness, and a lot of good players that can score on you if you aren't careful.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to PR07 For This Useful Post:


  15. #10

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm not sure this team absolutely needs a superstar. Sure, they could use a closer, but that is not the same thing. Jamaal Crawford is a pretty good closer for NBA standards, but he's not a superstar. Meanwhile, I can't help but think the blueprint of this team is the Detroit Pistons' fairly recent championship, defense, toughness, and a lot of good players that can score on you if you aren't careful.
    They need a superstar for two reasons: 1) attendance. Since Reggie left, there is no magnet to bring in the fans. 2) a closer. Danny Granger is a very inconsistent closer, and there is no other player on the team capable of being that guy, save Paul George, where the jury is still out. They need that player at the top of the heap, and they will have to get him via Free Agency. They can get that guy if they shell out top $ where nobody else can or will.

  16. #11
    @SteaglesPD Steagles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Greenfield, IN
    Posts
    3,221
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Quote Originally Posted by ninercolt View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    They need a superstar for two reasons: 1) attendance. Since Reggie left, there is no magnet to bring in the fans. 2) a closer. Danny Granger is a very inconsistent closer, and there is no other player on the team capable of being that guy, save Paul George, where the jury is still out. They need that player at the top of the heap, and they will have to get him via Free Agency. They can get that guy if they shell out top $ where nobody else can or will.
    The jury is in fact still out on PG. He could be that superstar.
    "What you do is so loud, I can't hear what you say" -Andrew Luck
    "If you turn the other cheek, I'm gonna hit you in the other cheek, too" -Charles Barkley
    Attending the University of Louisville in August!
    Follow me on Twitter @SteaglesPD
    1000th post - 4/16/12
    2000th post - 6/24/12
    3000th post - 3/8/13

  17. #12

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    My ideal postseason would involve a sign and trade for Gordon, signing Oden to a 2-3 year deal, re-signing Barbosa and Hill to no more than $5.5 mil per year, and sweet talking Nash to play alongside Gordon, George, West, and Hibbert. I might even go after Kaman as well. But this team most definitely needs someone who can bring the fans in. Most Pacers fans are too comfortable in thinking this team is incapable of moving cities. We keep up this 28th-30th in attendance, it's a very distinct possibility.

  18. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,397

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Meanwhile, I can't help but think the blueprint of this team is the Detroit Pistons' fairly recent championship, defense, toughness, and a lot of good players that can score on you if you aren't careful.
    Keep in mind that while the Pistons didn't have a Kobe/Duncan like superstar, they still had:

    -Guy picked in the high lottery 1 spot above KG
    -Guy picked in the high lottery 2 spots behind Duncan
    -Guy picked in the mid-lottery of a pretty strong draft.

    Dumars simply struck gold by getting these guys for cheap when their stock was low and nobody else really wanted them that badly.

    No doublt Dumars (along with right hand man John Hammond who went to Milwaukee) have tried implementing the same type of philosophy a second time around, but they haven't had the same kind of luck. You still need high level talent, no matter how cohesive your team is. The Pistons in the early-mid 2000s had that.

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to d_c For This Useful Post:


  20. #14
    Member Derek2k3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Fort Wayne
    Posts
    1,576
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    The only way Nash comes to Indiana is if the Pacers show well in the playoffs, like ECF well.

    He's made it clear he's interested in going "ring hunting" and you have to assume Miami would re-work deals to bring him in if he's at all interested.

    As much as I want to make a move now, the rational side of me says this:

    Granger can (and likely WILL) play better than he has this season. I base this off of the playoff performance last season.
    Paul can, and probably should, be really good next year. He's turning into the best finisher at the rim, and a deadeye from long range. It isn't a stretch to predict an All Star appearance in his near future.
    Roy can improve still, and his recent surge has been very encouraging. After going through the annual slump, he's gotten it together. This is a great sign, as in years past he has faded dramatically.
    West can, and probably will, play better next season. Give him the entire offseason to work out, get another year away from the injury, and he should return to something resembling his scintillating '10-'11 campaign.
    DC, I just don't know. I still think he has a ton of room for improvement, so we'll see.

    Basically, I look at this team and firmly believe that at the very least Granger/West can and will be more efficient/effective than they have so far. If the two of them increase their output/efficiency, and Roy/PG continue developing and contributing, I don't believe it's a stretch to see this team competing with Chicago.

    I think you need to give this team another year before doing anything dramatic, unless something obvious comes up (Nash, Rondo). Set your sights on '13, decide whether West is coming back etc. To me, that would be the best strategy. Clearly I'm not a GM though

  21. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Derek2k3 For This Useful Post:


  22. #15

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Quote Originally Posted by CooperManning View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Rings:

    Lebron James, Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant, Danny Granger: 0
    Shaq first ring: 27 years old
    Michael Jordan first ring: 27 years old

    Lebron: 27
    Granger: 28
    Durant: 23
    Rose: 23

    The two best players of the last 25 years didn't win rings until their late twenties. Unless a player is drafted to an already great team like Larry or Magic or Duncan, it takes years before they can build up all the skills and team necessary to win a ring as the best player on a championship team.

  23. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to King Tuts Tomb For This Useful Post:


  24. #16
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,485

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Deron Williams is the key.

  25. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to mattie For This Useful Post:


  26. #17

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Not to keep harping on this, I just find the topic interesting so I did a little more research. Looking through basketball reference, since 1980 I found only three instances where the best player on a championship team was younger than 27: Magic in 82, Duncan in 99 and Wade in 06. In all three of those cases there was a hall of fame center just past his prime on the team (Kareem, David Robinson and Shaq).

    Also interesting, the first time they won titles as their team's best player, Shaq, Isiah, Chauncey, Michael and Larry Bird were all 27 years old. Between 27 and 30 seems to be the age range we should be judging players by, not their early twenties.

  27. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to King Tuts Tomb For This Useful Post:


  28. #18

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    In terms of comparison, the Bulls have made more lottery picks than us (top 10 in general). But their success was solely because they got lucky in getting the #1 pick despite the very slim chance. The acquisition of Rose was the key to their current achievements. But if they didn't Chicago would have just ended up the same as the Pacers of the year's past (middle of the pack). So with respect to rebuilding, the Pacers are the same as that of Chicago, but Indiana is much better in terms of utilizing what was present in terms of draft picks and salary cap and comparing the current results of the rebuild.

  29. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Dillon, Co
    Posts
    3,586

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Quote Originally Posted by PGisthefuture View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I already posted this article.
    Yes, this was posted a few days ago and it's still on page one.
    Maybe someone could merge the threads.

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=71097

  30. #20
    Dutch Pacers Fan
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Age
    26
    Posts
    508

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Also interesting, the first time they won titles as their team's best player, Shaq, Isiah, Chauncey, Michael and Larry Bird were all 27 years old. Between 27 and 30 seems to be the age range we should be judging players by, not their early twenties.
    If they were all 27, and Lebron is 27 now, should I go out and bet the farm on him and Miami winning it all?
    yay, we're going back to the play-offs!

  31. #21

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Quote Originally Posted by pacersgroningen View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If they were all 27, and Lebron is 27 now, should I go out and bet the farm on him and Miami winning it all?
    I hope so!

  32. #22
    Member Sparhawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Age
    34
    Posts
    4,969

    Default Re: What is the Pacers ceiling? "ESPN Insider"

    Durant will win it this year.

    Pacers have the talent to win a first round series, but I don't see them beating any of the elite teams.

    Derron Williams would help solve that issue though. Too bad it won't happen.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

Similar Threads

  1. Pacers roster: Full speed ahead?
    By 90'sNBARocked in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-08-2011, 03:51 PM
  2. Replies: 89
    Last Post: 07-28-2010, 06:16 PM
  3. STAR: Pacers reach deal with city? (link)
    By Reggie4Three in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 68
    Last Post: 07-18-2010, 10:11 PM
  4. How the Pacers can convince Carmelo
    By Pacersalltheway10 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: 07-17-2010, 10:29 PM
  5. Pacers-Celtics Matchups (IndyStar)
    By ChicagoJ in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-28-2010, 09:36 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •