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Thread: Class basketball being reconsidered?

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Class basketball being reconsidered?

    INDIANAPOLIS — If you want to talk class basketball, the Indiana High School Athletic Association will lend an ear.

    It’s now 15 years since North’s Cougars won the last all-inclusive state boys’ basketball title, and that passage of time might have taken the class basketball issue off the front burner for some fans.

    But anybody who wishes the IHSAA to reconsider the subject can have their say at a series of 11 public meetings at various Hoosier locales from April 10 through May 24.

    IHSAA Commissioner Bobby Cox will be there, listening. State Sen. Mike Delph, R-Carmel, who sponsored a bill this past legislative session calling for a return to the traditional tournament, will also attend as many of the meetings as he can make.

    Cox and Delph conducted a joint press conference Thursday at the IHSAA offices announcing the series of “town hall” forums. All will transpire at high school venues, and the first is set for April 10 at Fort Wayne Northrop. The others are: Vincennes Lincoln, April 16; Plainfield, April 17; Seymour, April 23; Pendleton Heights, April 24; Merrillville, April 25; Milan, May 1; Plymouth, May 8; Marion, May 10; Connersville, May 16; and Gary Roosevelt, May 24.

    Delph said he considered the IHSAA’s willingness to reopen public dialogue on the issue “courageous” and called upon the public to make its views known.

    “It is my hope that the public turns out, in overwhelming fashion, and stands with me in demanding that we restore a proud Indiana tradition that made legends and built our identity as a basketball state,” Delph said. “Basketball is part of the national identity of the state of Indiana. As such, it must be respected.

    “I asked Bobby (Cox) what he would do if there was an overwhelming public voice for a return to a single-class basketball tournament. He said he’s always encouraged his membership to listen to the voice of their communities, and that’s all we can ask for in this case.”

    Delph noted that Article 8 of the Indiana Constitution gives the General Assembly “complete authority” over educational matters within the state, but that some have argued it shouldn’t wield that authority regarding high school athletics. Ultimately, as things currently stand, the 408 high school member principals have the final say in establishing the rules and regulations of the IHSAA, including the basketball tournament.

    Former IHSAA Commissioner Blake Ress conducted a 2006 survey of the state’s principals and only 10.6 percent (36 of the 341 to respond) favored returning to the old basketball tournament format.

    Cox said that “while the IHSAA is a private, nonprofit membership organization with elected representation, I feel it is important for our organization to listen to the opinions of the general public in an effort to clearly communicate those sentiments to our member schools.”

    Hence the town hall meetings. Cox said members of the public will get two minutes apiece to express their opinion, in an effort to allow as many people as possible to speak, and attendees can also indicate their preferences in “straw polls” conducted at the meetings. Athletic directors and coaches can attend the meetings and will also be canvassed electronically. The data collected from the meetings and germane constituences will be turned over to Delph, disseminated to the IHSAA member principals and also released to the public by the IHSAA.

    Locations for the meetings were set in conjunction with the six IHSAA regular district gatherings, and five additional locations were suggested by Delph.

    Delph said that while he hoped for a groundswell in favor of the old tournament, he’ll accept a different verdict if that is what the response and data show. He also is open to suggestion of alternatives beyond the current four-class system and the old single-class approach.

    “We’re not going to pre-judge the outcome,” Delph said. “We’re going to let the process work. If the . response is contrary to my personal position, I’ll respect that. The input we’re trying to seek now is whether the current multi-class system is something you support, or you don’t. And if you don’t, should we try something else? And that ‘something else’ is still on the drawing board.

    “This is not about picking on smaller schools (who generally have voted in favor of the multi-class approach), as I understand fully the concerns that Commissioner Cox has, and others (have) as well. Bright minds ought to be able to fashion a path to address those concerns.”

    Cox noted that a proposal to alter the current state football tournament format is already pending before the IHSAA this spring, and that he feels “the notion of looking at every single sport with (the same) ‘cookie-cutter approach is fading . but it’s important for the membership to digest the data and contemplate what’s best for the student-athletes and their communities.”

    http://www.tmnews.com/stories/2012/0...rts.111805.tms
    Here's going to be the problem with the meetings-
    During Class basketball's experimental time period, when it was first tried on an allegedly 'see how it goes' basis, a lot of people assumed the immediate decline in interest, decline in revenue, and negative public reaction meant that the experiment was not a success and would be coming to an end. Lo and behold, as the decision date came close word leaked that the IHSAA was in fact determined to continue class basketball.

    Very little time for the opposition to really gear up again as they'd done prior to the original decision for trying class basketball with a limited time period. People assumed the results had spoken for themselves and backed up what had already been predicted and there was no need to reoganize and protest. How could the IHSAA continue class basketball in light of what had quickly transpired during the experiment. I'd venture to say many of the negative predictions happened quicker than expected and possibly even worse than expected.

    So, in the face of that, with the public now largely apathetic to HS basketball overall, with several years of class basketball as the norm, are we to believe the IHSAA is really now going to reconsider? Even if they are now willing, they've already sucked the fight out of the public who either doubts this is anything but a waste of time (which is the category I fall in) or another segment who no longer cares about HS basketball. ...Let alone I'm sure there's a group who is for maintaining the status quo... whatever that might be at the time.... whether they can articulate a reason or not.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    I should clarify... I don't mean I think it's a waste of time to consider going back to the single class tourney. I just don't believe the IHSAA has any interest in changing it and the opposition is wasting its time. The meetings are just for show IMHO. Even if the IHSAA IS interested in changing it and gauging public interest I think public sentiment is not to believe them so that in and of itself will throw cold water on the meetings and attendance at the meetings.

    Unless the IHSAA can answer the question "Why now (are we the IHSAA interested in the possibility of changing it)?" then how could public fervor be as high as it was back when people still cared about HS basketball with the passion they did 15-20 years ago?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    The rumor that I've been told, from a varsity HC who's been in smaller regional meetings, is that the IHSAA is actually going to go in the opposite direction and create 4 more classes for private schools.

    And I was told that last week.

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The rumor that I've been told, from a varsity HC who's been in smaller regional meetings, is that the IHSAA is actually going to go in the opposite direction and create 4 more classes for private schools.

    And I was told that last week.
    If this happens, I would almost guarantee that 100% of private schools withdraw from the IHSAA.

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    **** THE IHSAA

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    Time to right the wrong.

    Personally, I think we should start by tarring and feathering the jerks who made the switch to start with!
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    My question is this: is the drop in interest because a bunch of people who liked the old way and stopped going just to prove a point? In all of these stories I never see the kids' points of view expressed but rather a bunch of old people pining for the "good old days." I think school consolidation has done more to dampen the support there used to be than anything else. Are there not more important things to be taken care of in Indiana than to beat on this dead horse?

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    If this happens, I would almost guarantee that 100% of private schools withdraw from the IHSAA.
    Why don't the private schools have their own organization like they do down here in Texas? Are there not enough of them?

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    Quote Originally Posted by SycamoreKen View Post
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    My question is this: is the drop in interest because a bunch of people who liked the old way and stopped going just to prove a point? In all of these stories I never see the kids' points of view expressed but rather a bunch of old people pining for the "good old days." I think school consolidation has done more to dampen the support there used to be than anything else. Are there not more important things to be taken care of in Indiana than to beat on this dead horse?
    I'm currently a high school basketball player and I absolutely hate class basketball. IMO, it decreases the motivation to win because there really isn't a real "winner". In my view, it promotes selfishness and individual play more than team basketball. I loathe it with a burning passion. I hope class basketball dies a fiery death. It's like an advanced college bowl system. ( I hate college football too for this reason.)

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersalltheway10 View Post
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    I'm currently a high school basketball player and I absolutely hate class basketball. IMO, it decreases the motivation to win because there really isn't a real "winner". In my view, it promotes selfishness and individual play more than team basketball. I loathe it with a burning passion. I hope class basketball dies a fiery death. It's like an advanced college bowl system. ( I hate college football too for this reason.)
    OK, at what level do you play? If you are at a small school do you care that you will have no chance of ever winning anything? And actually, Class basketball is like the college system. Should we eliminate the NCAA divisions 2 and 3 because there is not a "real" winner, I think you mean "one," at the end of basketball, baseball, or volleyball season? Also, if your team won the state title in your class, would you refuse the medal because there were other teams that won their respective divisions? I just don't understand your reasoning or argument.

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    Quote Originally Posted by SycamoreKen View Post
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    Why don't the private schools have their own organization like they do down here in Texas? Are there not enough of them?
    Well, they could, and they'd probably be pretty successful. The trouble is, the IHSAA needs the private schools FAR more than the private schools need the IHSAA, and therefore bends over backwards to keep them happy. People will try to tell you differently, in fact, I can almost word for word predict one poster's response to this. But it's true.

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    I play in 2A. I'd rather play for the top spot than be in the shadows of the 3A and 4A winners. Who says small schools have no chance at winning. There are small schools that could easily compete with 4A teams. I wouldn't refuse the medal. I dont know anyone who would. It just wouldn't mean as much and it would probably end up in my drawer ,buried, soon after.

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    And I do mean there's no real winner. There are big schools who could be defeated by smaller schools. If you don't know how teams would fare well with others outside their divisions( on a consistent basis, not like how it is now where there's a small non-class schedule), how do you claim them to be the top 2 teams in the state?

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersalltheway10 View Post
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    And I do mean there's no real winner. There are big schools who could be defeated by smaller schools. If you don't know how teams would fare well with others outside their divisions( on a consistent basis, not like how it is now where there's a small non-class schedule), how do you claim them to be the top 2 teams in the state?
    Your comments are very interesting, because Since86, who I believe played for a 1A school, argued that in his mind class basketball was better for the players (and their parents) because the small schools had a chance to win something while the single tournament was better for casual fans and everyone else. It would be really interesting to poll players and parents and break down the results by class.

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    I think Park Tudor (2A school) would have probably won state this year in either 3A or 4A. We'll never know though.

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    When my 4A school got tripled up by a 2A school, single class is favored by me.


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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    If this aint an April Fools Prank, PREPARE THE TORCHES AND PITCHFORKS!

    http://hoosierhoopsreport.com/2012/0...or-each-class/

    With all the talk of the IHSAA, state senator Mike Delph, and town hall meetings, there will be an announcement on Tuesday that the coveted Mr. Basketball award will be extended for each class starting next season.

    “It’s been talked about for almost since the start of class basketball,” a source inside the Star said, “but it’s really picked up steam since the new year. And with all the discussion of going away from class going, it was time to throw our support behind keeping it as it is.”

    Even though the Indiana Basketball Coaches Association is behind the running of the Indiana/Kentucky all-star series, the hope is expanding the Mr. Basketball award will deepen the interest on both sides of the border. Neither game director from either state has been reached for comment yet, but there have been assurances that each class winner will have a spot on each state’s all-star team.

    The first Mr. Basketball was named in Indiana in 1939, George Crowe from Franklin, and since that time, with the exception of 1943 and 1944 (World War II) there has just been one winner. The first Miss Basketball, Judi Warren from Warsaw, was awarded in 1976, and it is also given to one winner.

    “The next thing we can do,” he said, “is debate whom the other class winners would have been from the start. It’s a fun endeavor and gets us talking about basketball again.”

    This year’s Mr. Basketball will be announced Sunday, April 8, and Jessica Rupright was recently named the 2012 Miss Basketball.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    Why don't we declare every starter as a Mr Basketball? That will certainly keep many feelings from being hurt at not be chosen.

    I'm also not sure why we don't do away with the tournament entirely. At the end of the season we simply declare all the schools as champions. In fact, let's quit keeping score during games. That way, everyone gets the opportunity to be a champion and nobody will have to suffer any losses.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    Well, Mr. Basketball is not an IHSAA award. Go to their site and try to find a list of past winners. You can't, because it's not their award and they don't care who gets it. If this somehow is true, it won't be their fault, it will be the Indy Star's decision.

    [edit]I actually was able to dig up a list at their site, but it hasn't been updated since 2003 and says right at the top that the coaches and media vote and that it is conducted by the Indy Star.[/edit]

    http://www.ihsaa.org/b-basketball/MrBasketball.htm

    Yeah, I'm chalking this one up to an April Fools joke and calling BS. Hope I'm right though.
    Last edited by travmil; 04-01-2012 at 11:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    i agree with everything bball said. and i would add i have said this before and will say it again- i believe the ihsaa would rather see hs basketball just die before they admit they made a mistake and do what the majority would want (provided the majority wants to end it).
    no matter how many come out and make it clear they want an end to class basketball, it won't happen.
    there is a small possibility that it might go back but honestly- i seriously doubt it.

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    If this happens, I would almost guarantee that 100% of private schools withdraw from the IHSAA.
    Well, they shouldn't have been apart of the IHSAA. My school goes north for regionals, and we run into LCC. There's no reason why a catholic schools should be able to recruit and control their enrollment numbers, and then play against schools that can't recruit and can't control enrollment numbers.

    Instead of the IHSAA fixing the problem, after this year they will go in the opposite direction. No school districts.

    There's a mad rush right now in Delaware Co. for volleyball players. Burris, Wapahani, Yorktown, etc are all just foaming at the mouth to get all the younger Muncana girls coming into HS.

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    I graduated around the time class basketball was being brought in.

    In my mind, the sectionals were the greatest thing ever. The Martinsville sectional was all morgan county schools pretty much and was a packed house for all sessions. Then if you got through that, you had to go to Terre Haute at the Hulman Center to play, which was a very cool experience. I remember when Monrovia won the sectional, hell, they still talk about it to this day, more so than the run they made a few years later to the semi-state.

    I just don't see how anyone in 1a or 2a would be happy playing in the morning session being completely overlooked by 3a and 4a. Sure you are a champion, but nobody remembers it outside of your town. 2 weeks later, I can't tell you who the champions are from this year, and I follow high school basketball.

    I just don't see the need for 4 classes personally. I think they could easily just make it two classes. Make it 4A/3A/Private schools, 1A/2A in the other class. Easiest way to go about it. Then you can have semi-finals/finals in one day again like it used to be.


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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    I can almost guarantee you that Loogootee's run to the finals twice back in the 70's (where they lost) has more resonance than what this current class championship will have in a few weeks.

    It's a cheapened, watered down title. I feel sorry for the kids because they worked hard and I'm sure they are happy they won.... but it will all fade much quicker for them and the community than what a valiant run in a single class tourney would've meant... even if it ended in a loss.

    But you can only play the teams you're supposed to play.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    I hate class basketball.

    Yes, bigger schools and private schools have an overwhelming advantage over small country public schools.

    ...but who cares? Does being from a small school mean you're mentally disabled? Do you have to play by different rules? Are the courts different dimensions?

    At the end of the day, it's still 5-on-5, 94 feet, 10 foot rims. The school with 5,000 kids does not get to use more players than the school with 500.

    Full disclosure: I graduated from a class B private school in metro Detroit of 410 and we went undefeated that year and won both the Detroit City and Michigan class B state titles, blowing out the eventual class A champs along the way.

    I always thought it was funny that Detroit has its own all-inclusive city championship game, but we all had to go to class basketball for the state playoffs. Stupid. I would rather have lost in an all-inclusive state tourney than win a second-class bracket. It didn't feel like the accomplishment it should have.
    Last edited by Kstat; 04-03-2012 at 04:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Class basketball being reconsidered?

    Yeah, players are disabled that's why it's so hard to compete.

    It's a pure numbers game. The statistic probability that a school with 60 kids is going to have 8 kids pretty good at basketball is significantly lower than a school with 1200 kids having 8 kids that are pretty good at basketball.

    I didn't think I would have to explain how statistic probability works, and about how population numbers influence it.

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