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Thread: 2012 Indycar thread

  1. #301
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...nard-part-1/P1

    Too much to cut and paste but it is an absolutely excellent summary on how Bernard reached the point where he was fired. It doesn't answer exactly how 'now' was chosen as the time to do it (at least before a replacement was lined up... which apparently there's no immediate replacement lined up, let alone how it (the timing) sends all the wrong signals to fans, partners, sponsors, and potential sponsors (and promoters)), and nothing to really counter that. But it squarely shows you how Bernard lost respect and support in the paddock.

    It also goes to show you how the anti-Bernard crowd were emboldened because the board never strongly stood up for Bernard. So things quickly snow-balled from there.

    Robin Miller became a bit of a Randy Bernard cheerleader and I think Pruett's summary of events as well as the knowledge of how it ended shows that Miller left some dirty laundry issues out of his reports (because he had to know these things and know they at least had the potential to quickly grow serious and were growing serious). Bernard certainly wasn't fired out of left field as it appeared to fans and as Miller led us to believe.

    It'll be interesting to read Pruett's Part Two where he'll address the other side of the issue with supporters of Bernard.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  3. #302
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetimeís worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    I'd rather have a flip off smiley.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

    "And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
    Want your own "Just Say No to Kamen" from @mkroeger pic? http://twitpic.com/a3hmca

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  6. #304
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    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  8. #305
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    Alright. I've read both parts. Reads a whole lot like somebody decided that he had to go and kept ratcheting up the pressure from inside. Who the hell was in charge of telling him that Rome was burning? Comments?
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetimeís worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    I was screwing around on youtube and was watching the old 500 intros on ABC. Man these are classic. Here is the 1995 one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lVNTkKTpVM

    That of course was the last 500 before the split.

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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    It's amazing how less special the 1996 one is compared to the 1995 one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9lMG...eature=related

    The gist of this one is: "It's still called the Indianapolis 500 and is still run at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway." But you can tell from the video that even they knew the race was missing the special flavor that it had in all of the years prior. The excitement in the early 90's intros is so much different.

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  13. #308
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    Someone at ABC made the stupid decision to imply an apology of sorts for the '96 lineup as if the majority of people watching would've known the difference. The 'you may not know his name now but just as ___insert prior Indy winner here___ did he'll drink the milk and..... yada yada yada...' was the wrong approach.

    Stupid decision IMHO.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Someone at ABC made the stupid decision to imply an apology of sorts for the '96 lineup as if the majority of people watching would've known the difference. The 'you may not know his name now but just as ___insert prior Indy winner here___ did he'll drink the milk and..... yada yada yada...' was the wrong approach.

    Stupid decision IMHO.
    You think so?

    I'm too young to remember the 1996 race and the split, so every bit of knowledge I have comes from reading or watching these videos. I have no first hand experience. But the CART-IRL feud gained major national attention in the sporting world for months, didn't it? If you paid the slightest bit of attention to the sport, then you would have been well aware that the famous drivers had been locked out of the race and that a completely separate league had been formed. Only someone completely out of the racing loop wouldn't have known what was going on. If you cared enough to turn on the race, then I'd think you would have been well aware of the situation. That's just my take though, and it's all through a revisionist vantage point, not first hand experience.

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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    No, I think your right. Most people knew damn good and well what was going on. What they didn't know was how it would ultimately affect the 500. I remember being all for it until they locked out the top drivers and CART decided to do the US 500.
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetimeís worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

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  17. #311
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    What CART should've done is ran those first two races (WDW and Phoenix I believe were all there was before Indy) and then came to Indy with the IRL points so the stupid, ignorant, disgraceful 25-8 rule never came into play. Or came into play by guaranteeing some IRL regulars were on the outside looking in at the 500. THEN step away from the IRL with a point made (or negotiate with some more strength). In '96 equipment was not an issue for CART... CART could've dusted off their 95 machines and loaded them on the transporters. New IRL cars didn't appear until 97. They weren't 'locked out' in the sense the IRL said "Don't come"... they were instead painted into a corner needing IRL points to not be fighting for the 8 open spots with 25 spots reserved for IRL points earners at Indy. They were always 'welcome' but only 8 at large spots were available for non IRL points carrying teams. That didn't mean they started in the final 8 spots, the 8 spots would be wherever their speed allowed them to qualify. Still, a stupid, awful, PR disaster of a rule.

    Did the 25-8 rule even make it for a season? Was it '96 or '97 that it bit the IRL's own teams in the a$$ and they scratched the rule and started 35 cars?

    My point about ABC and 96 was the diehards and regulars knew what was going on, the fringe viewers had little idea exactly. CART was way better at selling the 'IRL drivers are replacement drivers and we're locked out of the Indy 500' angle to casual observers and fringe fans (and to an Indycar ignorant sports media) which only helped the split linger... because the IRL had the Indy 500 and could hold out longer than CART. ABC didn't need to 'help' that in any way, shape, or form IMHO.

    But while we're talking about stupid decisions let's not forget the US 500. It doesn't get much more stupid than that either. In the words of Bob Varsha as they are coming to the green flag "And make no mistake, you are witnessing a NEW tradition....." crash... boom... bang.... Major pileup on the way to the green flag.

    Karma was trying to tell both series something but they preferred to stubbornly keep shooting at their feet.

    IMO....
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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  19. #312
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    What CART should've done is ran those first two races (WDW and Phoenix I believe were all there was before Indy) and then came to Indy with the IRL points so the stupid, ignorant, disgraceful 25-8 rule never came into play. Or came into play by guaranteeing some IRL regulars were on the outside looking in at the 500. THEN step away from the IRL with a point made (or negotiate with some more strength). In '96 equipment was not an issue for CART... CART could've dusted off their 95 machines and loaded them on the transporters. New IRL cars didn't appear until 97. They weren't 'locked out' in the sense the IRL said "Don't come"... they were instead painted into a corner needing IRL points to not be fighting for the 8 open spots with 25 spots reserved for IRL points earners at Indy. They were always 'welcome' but only 8 at large spots were available for non IRL points carrying teams. That didn't mean they started in the final 8 spots, the 8 spots would be wherever their speed allowed them to qualify. Still, a stupid, awful, PR disaster of a rule.

    Did the 25-8 rule even make it for a season? Was it '96 or '97 that it bit the IRL's own teams in the a$$ and they scratched the rule and started 35 cars?

    My point about ABC and 96 was the diehards and regulars knew what was going on, the fringe viewers had little idea exactly. CART was way better at selling the 'IRL drivers are replacement drivers and we're locked out of the Indy 500' angle to casual observers and fringe fans (and to an Indycar ignorant sports media) which only helped the split linger... because the IRL had the Indy 500 and could hold out longer than CART. ABC didn't need to 'help' that in any way, shape, or form IMHO.

    But while we're talking about stupid decisions let's not forget the US 500. It doesn't get much more stupid than that either. In the words of Bob Varsha as they are coming to the green flag "And make no mistake, you are witnessing a NEW tradition....." crash... boom... bang.... Major pileup on the way to the green flag.

    Karma was trying to tell both series something but they preferred to stubbornly keep shooting at their feet.

    IMO....
    The 25/8 rule was in place for 1997:

    It was the first time since 1979 that more than the traditional 33 cars comprised the field. The debacle was a public relations black-eye, but the officials were applauded in the media for rightfully adding the cars back to the grid. The 25/8 rule was from that point abandoned, and would not be used in 1998.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Indianapolis_500

    Like I said, everything I've learned about the split is from reading about it as I was too young then. I didn't go to Indy until 1998. However, my guess is that all of the bad blood could have eventually been worked out if it weren't for the stupid 25/8 rule. That rule dishonored the chain of excellence at Indianapolis, which had always been reserved for the fastest 33 drivers. That rule was insult to all of the men who died at the track while trying to be the fastest. It ruined any chance of reconciliation for a long long time. But the 25/8 rule was the only way that TG was going to initially control the series, because the CART machines would have likely smoked the IRL in qualification at Indy had it been an open competition.

    CART certainly could have played it better, but there is no casebook to go by when someone is trying to ruin your business with a deficit spending series that doesn't even need to make money to survive. CART actually had to make money to survive while the IRL didn't. How do you defend yourself against someone who doesn't even have to make money to succeed in ruining you? Tony George had Brickyard 400 money and the IMS cookie jar to dip from. The Speedway makes so much money that it really didn't matter if how much IRL was losing, because he could hold out for as long as needed. For that reason alone, CART was doomed.

    But the US 500 was certainly an awful idea. They would have been better off running the 8 spots at Indy or staging a protest outside of the Speedway all month.

  20. #313
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    This would've been expensive but in hindsight it might've been a bargain... CART show up and take the 8 at large spots while their other drivers are frozen out, even with better qualifying times, to IRL regulars getting their guaranteed 25 spots. THAT would've been a PR disaster for the IRL and maybe ended the split right there. It would've sure put some pressure on TG to reopen negotiations.

    What we (fans) ended up with is watching two sides, neither as strong and stable as they thought, battle it out and do their own side as much harm as they inflicted on the other...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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  22. #314
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    And finally we have gotten around to naming names.

    http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...he-cheerleader
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetimeís worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

  23. #315
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    The names aren't much of a surprise in the end.

    I know one thing, even Nascar is having trouble filling the bleachers compared to where they were.

    If I'm Indycar and I'm really trying to figure out what is happening with racing fans overall I'd be asking myself if racing fans in general are being turned off by cars differentiated only by paint and stickers and by manufactured racing where the rules keep the field close and gimmicks are expected to create excitement (PTP for Indycar and 'Have at it boys' for Nascar for example).

    The economy is an easy excuse but I'm not sure it's actually the problem.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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  25. #316
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    Apathy perhaps? You are right, there isn't anyone on that list that I was really surprised by. I knew Barnes, TG, and Chipster anyway.
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetimeís worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

  26. #317
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    http://youtu.be/-OCAjZltti8
    1941 Indy 500 in color...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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  28. #318
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    http://youtu.be/mGt7ONY9CB4
    1952 highlights...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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  30. #319
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    http://youtu.be/-OCAjZltti8
    1941 Indy 500 in color...

    Great footage. This was the last race before WW2. It would take a four year hiatus before coming back in 1946 when the Hulman's purchased the track.

  31. #320
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    ..And wasn't that a rear-engined car in the 41 film?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  32. #321
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    Belskus will be staying on as CEO, barring something unforeseen. The car owners want him. Guess why.
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetimeís worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

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  34. #322
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    I see NBC Sports.... formerly Versus... has moved into the low 200's on Directv instead of being channel 603. That puts it in the neighborhood with the ESPN networks as well as NBA TV and NFL TV.

    Should make it easier for casual fans to find the channel or stumble across racing and quals while channel surfing....
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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  36. #323
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    http://www.indystar.com/article/2012...w-CEO-s-vision

    For at least one more day, Mark Miles' career sits scattered in boxes on the 18th floor of a downtown office building.

    That changes Monday when he moves into new digs at Indianapolis Motor Speedway to become CEO of Hulman & Company, the parent organization of IMS and IndyCar.

    Miles already finds himself at the center of IndyCar issues.

    He said two things have stirred fans and people in the sport: His interest in having lights at the Speedway and wanting IndyCar to have a playoff system.

    The latter, in particular, is just a thought he's had from afar, he said.

    "A couple of people have written me and said, 'You idiot, why would we want to be like NASCAR?'" he said Thursday. "All we're doing is asking ourselves questions."

    Miles spent 15 years as head of men's professional tennis, and he said that sport struggled to hold people's attention late in the season.

    "Most great sports leagues have some form of culmination that moves the needle near the end of their season," he said. "While (IndyCar) has a championship and it gets some attention, I wonder whether there's a way to create more value and more interest for fans at the end of the year.

    "That's kind of the question we're having right now."...
    F... that....
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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  38. #324
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

    "And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
    Want your own "Just Say No to Kamen" from @mkroeger pic? http://twitpic.com/a3hmca

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  40. #325
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    Default Re: 2012 Indycar thread

    Anything I could say would get me in trouble, so we'll just go with NUCLEAR STUPID.
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetimeís worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

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