Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

Collapse
X
Collapse
 
  • Page of 5
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
Previous 1 2 3 4 5 template Next
  • #1

    Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

    I’ve re-written this thing 3 times already and I’m not doing it again. I have tried my best to mask any form of disgust or disappointment in my previous drafts and each time I deleted them because to me it was just fake and artificial.

    I know that some of you hate any form of negative or at the very least overly negative postings, with that in mind I kept editing myself.

    I can’t do it.

    I will write this for myself if nobody else and this may be the last one I do for awhile because I do not want to add to the overly negative nature of the board.

    But how the hell can anyone be anything but negative after the month that we have had. Remember guys it’s not just a game, it’s not just a back to back loss of a home & home series. This has been going on for over a month now. 11 wins & 12 losses if you go back to February 1 with six of those wins coming against the bottom of the NBA and another one against a team that three days later fired their coach and blew up their team (in other words they were in collapse as well). But if you just go back a month we have had one good win, ONE. The Philly win was a good victory and that can’t be taken away.

    But other than that we have been falling faster than the Hindenburg.

    To make matters worse tonight after the game I get home to flip on the TV to see NBAtv making fun of both the Pacers (thanks to the way overblown reaction to Danny’s very innocuous statement) and the city of Indianapolis or as they were calling it Lindianapolis.

    I have no real idea what is going on here. Is it the defense? Is it the offense? The answer is yes to both.

    I know everybody is ready to hang Darren Collison and he sure deserves a lot of what he is getting but let’s not look past the fact that for the first time that I can remember our power forwards forced Frank Vogel to do something that he hasn’t had to do before. He went small for an extended period of time. This was because David “I can’t rotate laterally without the aid of a hoveround” West nor Tyler “who needs a vertical when you can flail” Hansbrough brought their absolute A games to play tonight.

    I mean I can understand Tyson Chandler affecting shots and controlling the painted area. He is an athletic big with quick hands and big hops, but for Gods sake did we have to make Jarred Jeffries look like Dwight Howard? We could not go inside on them with anyone other than Roy & on a couple of occasions Danny (when he wasn’t busy trying to miss a jumper). But at the very least West grabbed a few boards in the game but Tyler grabbed a whopping one rebound (yes you read that right 1). So other than Dahntay Jones who grabbed zero in his almost 9 min. of play & Mike Bibby who also grabbed one Tyler was outrebounded by every single member of both the Pacers & Knicks.

    Smash mouth basketball indeed.

    Our defense has got to change right now, if we do nothing else at our next practice we need to make it so that we quit having our 7’2” center rotate off of his man during the pick and roll and attempt to force the dribbler away from the basket leaving him 18-20’ away from the rim while either his man or another cutter makes a mad dash at the rim for the usual and customary and 1 play. This by the way is not Roy’s fault, there may be a hand full of legitimate big men who could rotate back that fast & sadly Chandler is one of them. I would much rather give up an open 18’ jumper than have the layup line that goes on during games. This happens time and time again.

    Yes I know other players are supposed to rotate over to help, well guess what when they do then the cutter just tosses it to the now wide open player leaving our help defender scrambling back to him with arms flailing as he watches the mostly uncontested three point shot go flying up.

    Even when these shots miss the likely hood that the offensive team gets the rebound is now becoming more and more likely as once again we have been outrebounded.

    I am sick to death of reading about how this is ok, this is what we expected in the pre-season and that we all knew we weren’t as good as Chicago, Miami or Oklahoma City. I don’t even know what that last part is supposed to mean because right now if you ask me we are not only not as good as them but I now put us below Orlando, Atlanta & well frankly the Mike Woodson led N.Y. Knicks.

    This was my great fear about D’Antoni leaving, I wanted him to be their coach for life because he is horrible. He is just Jim O’Brien with the benefit of having Steve Nash run his sets for him in Phoenix. N.Y. has a lot of talent and now that they have a coach who will actually demand defense & not just throw up slop (why does this sound familiar) they will start winning.

    Yes we happened to catch them on a high. If we were a good team that wouldn’t matter, they might have caught us once at home but there is no way a good team would lose back to back games like this.

    But right now, I’m sorry but we are just not a good team.

    Also I know this will make a lot of you mad as well but I’m saying it anyway. I don’t want to hear that the schedule is going to get easier. That is absolute B.S. that we have to get to playing weak teams just so we can get some wins. Again good teams will get to the rough part of a schedule and sure they will struggle but for the most part they will not collapse.

    We have collapsed when it comes to playing teams with decent records (other than that very good win vs. Philly).

    I am going to blame most of this on players but sorry Frank has to take his lumps here as well. I like a rotation as well as the next guy, getting guys regular min. and knowing that they will come in and out at certain intervals of the game makes for a good routine and in a compressed season will help with the legs.

    Now having said that I want to say that there is a time and a place to forget about the egg timer as well. Tonight Paul George in the first quarter was just slamming it to the Knicks, they had no answer for him and he was keeping us in the game scoring 10 points. Then the egg timer went off and up jumps Tyler. Ok, good sign George Hill is not up so he must be going to let him play on, one play later in check George for Paul and then Paul proceeds to sit until almost 20 min. of real time (not game time) has elapsed. Paul now comes in and is cold and does not score again until 6:38 mark in the 3rd quarter.

    You do not take out a young athletic player who is on fire unless they are in foul trouble or are winded and neither was the case here. He killed any momentum that he had going on and it took Paul a quarter and a half to recover.

    The Knicks did employ the sure fire guaranteed way to stop the Pacers, they played a 2-3 zone. Each time the Pacers face this it is worse than the last time they faced it. They approach it as though it were voodoo and they are afraid of getting bad mojo. Of course it doesn’t help that we don’t have anyone who can hit a three point shot on a consistent basis so that is a problem. But how about anybody hitting a shot, that would help.

    I’m hoping Barbosa will help here.

    Overall I would have to say this has been a very disappointing weekend of Pacers basketball & once again they had a big crowd in the house and once again they left the sold out crowd wondering why anyone would actually pay to come see them play. Most of the people there tonight were Lin fans & that is what makes it worse, they weren’t all die hard Knick fans. So the Pacers had a chance to get some of these fans if they would have played well, but as is almost always the case when they have a big crowd on hand they bring a knife to a gun fight.

    Let’s pretend to be objective here during our player evaluations, which we will do in grade format.

    Roy Hibbert: A Was embarrassed in N.Y. City last night and to his credit he did almost everything he could do to make us at least be competitive for awhile. He rebounded, he scored in the post & he drew fouls and hit his shots. I don’t know if there was much else he could do to help the team. I am proud of him for standing up to the challenge. He made Chandler just human tonight.

    Paul George: A- He tried, he would have had a better game if he wasn’t inexplicably held out for half of the second quarter. He just has to get better handles and not throw some silly passes but since the all-star break he has turned it up and is really becoming the player we all think he can be.

    Danny Granger: C- This pretty much will tell you how the night went for him. Pre-game huddle he stopped Jeff Pendegraph from doing his usual fire up the team speech. Danny instead is in the huddle and is giving an impassioned speech. Then again just before tip he gathers all of the starters around him and again is giving what looks like a fiery win one for the Gipper speech. Then N.Y. wins the tip but blows a layup and the Pacers get the ball down court quick to Danny on the baseline who lines up and fires a wide open jump shot. I’d love to tell you that it went in to give the club the lead but no he short arms the shot and misses so bad that it hits the underside of the outside of the rim and N.Y. recovers gets it down court only to have Carmelo hit a three point shot with Danny running at him flailing his arms. It was that kind of night. He did do some nice post up work for awhile and he did block a shot. But other than that you really would hope for a better game from your leader.

    David West: D- Horrid, soft, no hops, lethargic. Am I leaving out any other adjectives to describe how putrid his game was? Oh yea, slow.

    Darren Collison: D- When Jeremy Lin decided in the 4th quarter to just start driving and shooting Darren provided him with a clear path to do so, he wouldn’t want to get in his way or anything. Darren did get some rebounds but other than that? Well let’s say there was this one time that he dribbled the ball right off of his foot out of bounds, this of course led to another N.Y. score. His dribbling is getting worse and that is the part that is just mystifying to me, I knew he wasn’t a great passer but I had no idea that he was this lousy of a ball handler. But it was his defense that was just the death of us and is on most nights. The only time we made any impact on Lin at all in the 4th quarter was when we switched over and put Hill on him. By then it was all over.

    Tyler Hansbrough: F Sorry I don’t care if you flailed your way for 5 points, one rebound as a power forward is beyond pathetic. I feel like those guys from office space when I want to ask him “what is it you say you do here”? Because on nights like tonight I have no idea. No defense, no rebounding, no hustle plays. I just have no honest clue as to what he does out there when he isn’t scoring.

    George Hill: C- The only thing saving him from an F is the fact that he did not embarrass himself on defense. He didn’t set the world on fire from the defensive end either but at least he made effort and did actually slow Lin down when he finally was put on him.

    Lou Amundson: C Again why this guy sits in games like this when Tyler plays like this is beyond me. I would have loved to put him in next to Roy and see what he could do at the four spot for awhile. Foul magnet but it’s because he was one of the few Pacers stepping up to defend all night long.

    A.J. Price: F His 9 min and 2 seconds on the floor was 9 min. to long. Other nights when he is content to run the offense he can be a good player and a valuable defender. Tonight he was interested in getting his own shots up and was not running any form of offense other than how long can A.J. dribble before he shoots. I’m not kidding, I would much rather have Lance than this version of A.J.

    Dahntay Jones: C- Hit the two shots he took but did not defend with the normal vigor that we are used to with him. I will say this, he was not to happy to be yanked quickly in the second half.

    I don’t even know what to say anymore. I only look forward to a break in the schedule just because I would like to see us win again, but I am not at all happy that this is what it has come to. This is the only way we can win is by playing the dregs of the NBA. I really fear that Blake Griffin will score 50 points on our power forwards on Tuesday.

    I have already decided that the two primary concerns in this off season & yes I am now already starting to be concerned with the off season, is we have to get a new point guard and we have to get an athletic big to take over at the four spot. I doubt seriously we get that but I would take a player who could back up the four and five till West leaves as a free agent.

    I apologize to any and all of you who do not like negative posts, I honestly tried not to but like I said it just was fake and not me.



    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

    Peck, this IS the break in the schedule.

    2 games like this could be a fluke, a weird matchup, a boost from a coaching change or whatever anomaly you want to assign it to.

    But frankly these 2 games made me hate rooting for this team. Now it makes the CHI, ATL and ORL losses look suspicious again and casts doubt on the "well it was a tough spot" view.

    Maybe I was only half-right, maybe Philly stinks but maybe so do the Pacers.



    I promoted the easy schedule as a sign of a big run of wins but how could anyone seriously bet on the Pacers IN MIL, for example. At this point a whole bunch of obvious wins just went in the toilet. It looks more like .500 against bad teams in favorable situations is what we have to hope for which really isn't an improvement over last year given the 2 (and now 3) additions.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

      By the way, you know what the problem really is?

      The Pacers have been "solved". Their offense 100% chokes at the first sign of an aggressive double team. The Knicks badly overpursue and pull themselves into bad position, but the Pacers let them do it. Many teams have been going with hard doubles and traps the last few weeks and the Pacers appear to have no clue how to react.

      This isn't just one guy either. DC and Roy really freak out, but Danny lets himself get trapped on the baseline and half of West's scores are just him forcing it and stepping awkwardly (but impressively) though a double.

      Rotation and ball movement out of traps or doubles is slow and easy for the defense to react to. Rather than setting up the defense with fakes and anticipation moves that are countering the defense before it can even get to the ball, the Pacers let these traps just force them way out of position and into over the top slow lob passes and nasty cross-court skips that require a leap to catch at all.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

        I'm not too worried. Knicks seem to be a different level of team post-Dantoni . They are pretty stacked and now seem to be playing really inspired ball. I'd actually love to see them at the 7th or 8th seed to give Miami or Chicago trouble. We need to have realistic expectations. The Knicks have more talent at every position, aside from sg.
        https://soundcloud.com/geoclipse

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

          One thing that I notice a lot of is that the entire Team has a tendency to dribble the air out of the ball....look for someone to pass it to.....then resets to the Point Guard on the floor...or whoever is open...with less then a few seconds left in the shot clock...thus forcing that Player to take a bad shot with the clock running down. Am I the only one that notices this?

          I don't know if it's just a matter of poor clock management, no real play in mind, part of the overall gameplan...or just an inability to do something on the offensive end.....but despite the somewhat anemic ball movement among the Players....it's not really enough ball movement to create scoring opportunities...because they hold the ball so long it allows the other Team to reset their defense. It's like they are playing NBA 2k12 and trying to find some opening in the defense...but taking forever to find the opening.

          I don't know how many times that we have taking really ill-advised and poor shots with a few seconds left in the shot clock.
          Last edited by CableKC; 03-18-2012, 02:31 AM.
          Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

            All good points. Our problem is that our offense is just too damn simple. I know Vogel hasn't had a full training camp yet and what not, but you would think he would be able to make tweaks here and there to complicate our offense more as the season goes on. Also, I think DC and Roy's struggling are in part due to Vogel's system. As mentioned, Roy always stays up to help on a pick and roll and leaves his man along with the lane wide open which causes for easy offense for the opposing team. As for DC the numbers show that he was better in New Orleans and that was because it was more of a point guard system.

            I'm also confused with the fact that some nights (like against Philly) we look like we should and are hitting shots along with playing good defense and other nights we can't hit the ocean with a rock and we allow so many easy buckets. This team is so up and down and I don't know if age is a reasonable excuse anymore. I really hope Barbosa can help by hitting shots and showing some of what he showed in Pheonix when they were contenders. I feel bad he had to come here and watch his new team get blown out twice by a sub .500 team.

            I too have started thinking about this off-season and have come to a few conclusions.... A) We need an upgrade at the point guard. I know it's a topic that is always discussed on here and it is becoming more and more noticeable. In Vogel's system there must be a guy like Nash who can facilitate the offense. B) We need an athletic power forward who can block shots. It sounds all too familiar because that is what we needed coming into the season and it is starting to show that we still do. I love David West, but he is simply too slow to guard the many athletic 4's he is faced with most nights. I hope we can get such a guy in the draft which is why I'm glad we kept our first round pick. With Larry running the show I don't honestly know how things will be this summer. I think he has a lot of false hope that this team will eventually pull it together, but there are still major needs and I hope he sees them.

            I am having strong doubts about our game against the Clippers on Tuesday and I hope I'm wrong.

            EDIT: I am really frustrated by the fact that Vogel takes PG out at the same time every game. He always makes him sit for an extended period of time too. He had it going tonight and honestly I could have seen a different outcome if he had stayed in the majority of the game. Vogel can't do what O'Brien did and sit such a young player with great potential on the bench for so long. He needs to learn to leave the guy with the hot hand in the game.
            Last edited by PGisthefuture; 03-18-2012, 02:41 AM.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

              Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
              By the way, you know what the problem really is?

              The Pacers have been "solved". Their offense 100% chokes at the first sign of an aggressive double team. The Knicks badly overpursue and pull themselves into bad position, but the Pacers let them do it. Many teams have been going with hard doubles and traps the last few weeks and the Pacers appear to have no clue how to react.

              This isn't just one guy either. DC and Roy really freak out, but Danny lets himself get trapped on the baseline and half of West's scores are just him forcing it and stepping awkwardly (but impressively) though a double.

              Rotation and ball movement out of traps or doubles is slow and easy for the defense to react to. Rather than setting up the defense with fakes and anticipation moves that are countering the defense before it can even get to the ball, the Pacers let these traps just force them way out of position and into over the top slow lob passes and nasty cross-court skips that require a leap to catch at all.
              Young team, little to no practice time to put in sets, nobody who knows how to pass and move without the ball, everybody trying to create for themselves. That works when your team has the superior athleticism which the Pacers do against a good number of teams. Against teams that have better records and understand defense, the Pacers cannot get away with this and generally get blown away unless the shots are falling.

              I miss Dunleavy and McRoberts and their basketball IQ and the fundamentals they learned from Coach K which they continued to apply during their time here. They were far more important to the franchise than most give them credit for. I could not care less that McRoberts has not played much for the Lakers, and I honestly have no clue how Dunleavy has been playing for the Bucks, or if he even has been. I just know that both were undervalued here, and their contributions on both ends of the floor are becoming more obvious as this season is progressing.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

                Originally posted by Ratking View Post
                I'm not too worried. Knicks seem to be a different level of team post-Dantoni . They are pretty stacked and now seem to be playing really inspired ball. I'd actually love to see them at the 7th or 8th seed to give Miami or Chicago trouble. We need to have realistic expectations. The Knicks have more talent at every position, aside from sg.
                I think the Knicks will cool down eventually. Once they play a team like Miami, Chicago, or OKC they will get hit with reality. After a game like that they should lose momentum. I am worried though I want to wait to see how we play them in April to judge whether I would want to face them in the playoffs. Even then I don't think we stand much of a chance, it might be an interesting series, but we would probably lose.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

                  Originally posted by Brad8888 View Post
                  Young team, little to no practice time to put in sets, nobody who knows how to pass and move without the ball, everybody trying to create for themselves. That works when your team has the superior athleticism which the Pacers do against a good number of teams. Against teams that have better records and understand defense, the Pacers cannot get away with this and generally get blown away unless the shots are falling.

                  I miss Dunleavy and McRoberts and their basketball IQ and the fundamentals they learned from Coach K which they continued to apply during their time here. They were far more important to the franchise than most give them credit for. I could not care less that McRoberts has not played much for the Lakers, and I honestly have no clue how Dunleavy has been playing for the Bucks, or if he even has been. I just know that both were undervalued here, and their contributions on both ends of the floor are becoming more obvious as this season is progressing.
                  Come to think of it I miss that from Dunleavy as well. Never thought I would say that... He has been putting up pretty solid numbers for the Bucks too. I think maybe it was a mistake to let him go, we should have signed him for a cheap deal during the off-season.

                  http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1708/mike-dunleavy

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

                    Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                    Their offense 100% chokes at the first sign of an aggressive double team.
                    Pretty much. Even if you see some good ball movement that ends with a corner three or someone getting fouled on his way to a layup, it's because of poor help defense from our opponents. If any sort of hard double comes, it's either Danny being unable to dribble the ball, DC being too short or poor-sighted to get it out of the double (and having to call a TO), Roy forcing something, or any number of other boneheaded, rushed executions. I'm not sure at this point to just not believe Vogel when he says that they have been drilling the offense for three straight practices or to understand that he doesn't himself understand what that means.

                    Either way, this team needs to go back to what got it that nice start to begin the season: defense. It has really trailed off since February and March began. We are still tenth in defensive efficiency, though I believe we were fourth or fifth after the first month or so. We're not going to get much (or any at all) better on offense. We need to focus up and get back to helping strong, deflecting penetration, and stopping open looks. We will still have to foul, something Pacers teams have done for years now.

                    What really needs to step up is the ****ing transition defense. Some said that DC had increased his aggressiveness in these defensive situations in the beginning of the year. Fine. But he cannot come close to doing it by himself. And if he needs to foul someone to prevent a hoop, suffice it to say that if the player he is fouling is even kind of strong, he stands no chance. The Pacers need to get back on defense. The Knicks absolutely killed us these past two games with fast breaks off turnovers (+10 in the first game, +3 in this one).

                    There's no other way to say it, the Pacers need to recommit to being a top defensive team. Everyone. Right now.
                    You Got The Tony!!!!!!

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

                      Originally posted by CableKC View Post
                      One thing that I notice a lot of is that the entire Team has a tendency to dribble the air out of the ball....look for someone to pass it to.....then resets to the Point Guard on the floor...or whoever is open...with less then a few seconds left in the shot clock...thus forcing that Player to take a bad shot with the clock running down. Am I the only one that notices this?
                      I posted this over a year ago:

                      http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...light=Collison
                      Collison

                      1. Good scorer (when he's on)
                      2. Not a good distributor
                      3. Not a good defender
                      When your point guard is a bad distributor, your team will take bad shots with the clock expiring and be last in the league in assists.
                      Last edited by McKeyFan; 03-18-2012, 07:21 AM.
                      "Look, it's up to me to put a team around ... Lance right now." —Kevin Pritchard press conference

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

                        Peck, I don't know how somebody couldn't be negative, or at least concerned if you look at the last month.

                        Some won't like to hear this, but I'm starting to question the D West pickup/expenditure. The only hope I'm holding out is year two the knee will be physically better and his play along with it.

                        Otherwise, it turns out we get a mediocre, athletically challenged four for 10 million per. Not really what we needed at the position. Lately he's not bringing much more than Tyler might in the same minutes. Obviously, we still have not addressed the gaping hole of a truly athletic 4/5 type guy we've all been on here clamoring for for going on two years.
                        I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                        -Emiliano Zapata

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

                          As usual great post Peck. I don't no why you are so apologetic for speaking the truth. That is not a negative. If people continue to turn a blind eye and think things are going to change when nothing is done to create change, that is a negative.

                          The same problems this team has now are the same problems it had entering the season. Absolutely undeniable terrible point guard play, a strong PF who can defend and rebound, not necessarily score a bunch. We don't need him to score alot. It is very weak mentally and alot of nights they do not play with energy and effort. They have never been a smashmouth team, they don't even know what that means.

                          I am so tired of hearing Vogel in his post game pressers saying we are a very good team and if we play well we can beat anybody. Good teams adjust when things don't go well. They tweak lineups, change schemes a little and yes sometimes light a fire under someone's ***. You can't be mister nice guy and try never to hurt somebody's feelings and expect that to get the job done. Vogel preaches we are smashmouth, maybe the coach needs to be a little smashmouth himself.

                          I say start Hill. At least we will have someone in that position that defends. Why not give Lou a chance at PF. Stop playing him out of position. He will give you energy, athleticism and defense every night. The West and Hibbert combo is way to slow. Hansbrough has spent most of his time complaining to the officials and being very ineffective.

                          I think Barbosa will give us some punch, but he is another guard in the line of what we already have. Score first and when your scoring everything is OK, but when you are not, you have to be able to do something else. I am not sure he will.

                          Finally I would like to hear the front office stop preaching we are building the deepest team we can build. If you look at the top teams, they win with stars. They don't depend on the bench to win games, they depend on them to contribute.

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

                            Originally posted by AesopRockOn View Post
                            Pretty much. Even if you see some good ball movement that ends with a corner three or someone getting fouled on his way to a layup, it's because of poor help defense from our opponents. If any sort of hard double comes, it's either Danny being unable to dribble the ball, DC being too short or poor-sighted to get it out of the double (and having to call a TO), Roy forcing something, or any number of other boneheaded, rushed executions. I'm not sure at this point to just not believe Vogel when he says that they have been drilling the offense for three straight practices or to understand that he doesn't himself understand what that means.

                            Either way, this team needs to go back to what got it that nice start to begin the season: defense. It has really trailed off since February and March began. We are still tenth in defensive efficiency, though I believe we were fourth or fifth after the first month or so. We're not going to get much (or any at all) better on offense. We need to focus up and get back to helping strong, deflecting penetration, and stopping open looks. We will still have to foul, something Pacers teams have done for years now.

                            What really needs to step up is the ****ing transition defense. Some said that DC had increased his aggressiveness in these defensive situations in the beginning of the year. Fine. But he cannot come close to doing it by himself. And if he needs to foul someone to prevent a hoop, suffice it to say that if the player he is fouling is even kind of strong, he stands no chance. The Pacers need to get back on defense. The Knicks absolutely killed us these past two games with fast breaks off turnovers (+10 in the first game, +3 in this one).

                            There's no other way to say it, the Pacers need to recommit to being a top defensive team. Everyone. Right now.
                            I agree with you, but I think the Pacers maybe never were a top defensive team. With the shortened preseason and training camp teams offenses were way behind the defenses which explains the horrible shooting and low scoring early in the season. Now the offenses have caught up and this is what we got.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Odd Thoughts: Empire state of mind...

                              Unless Granger shows me some sustained good offensive play over the course of season/playoffs, I will be more than happy to move him this offseason. I'm not talking a hot streak in a short playoff season a la Chicago last spring.

                              I'm talking consistently good play over a long duration. The guys is supposed to be one of our top offensive players and one of our perimeter shooting threats. But he can't shoot consistently!

                              If anything, the pressure has been taken off him by the depth of legitimate options around him, but it makes no difference. His 18 ppg avg is very misleading. Many nights his scoring does not positively impact the team and he's not a dependable guy per %s to get the outside shot when you have to have it. And he doesn't do enough overall to influence the game in other ways (consistently).

                              When you're supposed to provide veteran team leaderships, it has to start with leading by example when that's defined as your role. A role you have defined and accepted. I personally need to see more consistency from him. I think the team as a whole would be better for it.
                              I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                              -Emiliano Zapata

                              Comment

                              Previous 1 2 3 4 5 template Next
                              Working...
                              X