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Thread: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by PGisthefuture View Post
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    Maybe Kaman could be our Dale Davis?
    I know your joking but with Kaman we win the battle of the boards tonight and this game. Larry needs to make it happen if the price is really just a 2cd.
    Either N.O. is dragging this out in hopes of getting more then a 2cd. or Larry is dragging this out in hopes of finding a better long term player for out cap space.

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    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Another random fact. Pacers are 10-2 when Roy Hibbert has 3 or more blocks in a game and 13-3 when Hibbert has 10 or more rebounds in a game. I don't understand why Frank didn't plug Lance into the lineup tonight. Last time against the Hawks he had the best game of his career shooting 5 of 7 for 12 points along with 5 reb, 3 as, and a block and a steal.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Probably not possible, but I would like to see us acquire a Crawford/Barbisa type guy, get Kaman, and put Hill at the starting 1.

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  5. #104

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by PGisthefuture View Post
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    Maybe Kaman could be our Dale Davis?
    i doubt it. kaman is a terrific player, but what he does and what dale did are about as different as it is for 2 bigs to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I know your joking but with Kaman we win the battle of the boards tonight and this game. Larry needs to make it happen if the price is really just a 2cd.
    Either N.O. is dragging this out in hopes of getting more then a 2cd. or Larry is dragging this out in hopes of finding a better long term player for out cap space.
    if kaman plays, pacers should win. if for no other reason roy doesn't have to play as many minutes.

  6. #105

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbert View Post
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    Another random fact. Pacers are 10-2 when Roy Hibbert has 3 or more blocks in a game and 13-3 when Hibbert has 10 or more rebounds in a game. I don't understand why Frank didn't plug Lance into the lineup tonight. Last time against the Hawks he had the best game of his career shooting 5 of 7 for 12 points along with 5 reb, 3 as, and a block and a steal.
    not sure what vogel was doing tonight. AJ, lou, dahntay all played no time. seemed like they lost franks confidence or something. strange.

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    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Probably not possible, but I would like to see us acquire a Crawford/Barbisa type guy, get Kaman, and put Hill at the starting 1.
    DC+Tyler for Felton/Crawford should get it done, maybe throw a second round pick or something.

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    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    DC+Tyler for Felton/Crawford should get it done, maybe throw a second round pick or something.
    This plus Kaman and we'll be scary...

  9. #108

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    I feel like everyone talks like we already have Kaman locked up.
    "We've got to be very clear about this. We don't want our players hanging around with murderers," said Larry Bird, Pacers president.

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  11. #109

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    DC+Tyler for Felton/Crawford should get it done, maybe throw a second round pick or something.
    I doubt they even consider it

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    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by rock747 View Post
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    I feel like everyone talks like we already have Kaman locked up.
    Breaking News: A man who was being kept in a cage inside of Banker's Life Fieldhouse is on the loose. Families are being warned to stay indoors as the very gruff, hairy man is known to have a devastating left hook. An eye witness shared that he was "looking for that guy using my likeness to begin the game threads." Twitpics at Eleven.

  13. #111

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    I went to the game tonight and the only two players I thought played well coming out of it were West and Hill. That probably goes for the majority of the board.

    The real problem is our point guard play makes a lot of the players look worse than they really are. DC and GH both have a shoot-first court vision mentality, and it drives me nuts. I'll cut Hill some slack since he's a combo guard, but DC has to realize that he's out to put the four other guys in position to score. I've been joking most of the week with my friends about a trade involving Granger and Rondo, but at this point, I honestly wouldn't be against it.

    And really, what is up with Roy Hibbert? His effort on boxing out and pulling down rebounds with some hard authority is laughable. Actually, no one on this team pulls down rebounds with some toughness. Hell, let's expand it. No one on this team shows any toughness at all.

    I guess I'm just venting, but it was a painful game to watch tonight. This team won't compete with any of the playoff contenders if they're going to play like this every night.

  14. #112

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    I missed the game tonight, luckily I forgot to record it. First game I've missed all year. It's probably a good thing though because I would have posted something "negative", and it seems some people have been getting their panties in a bunch over my posts. (yeah not too classy... but I'm smashed )

    I just have two questions, then I'll go back to my hole... how did Roy get only 6 shots in 40 minutes? And who was (or wasn't) guarding Pargo?

    p.s. Have yourself a Goose Island beer (i prefer Sofie). You'll be glad you did.

  15. #113
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    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    I wonder a tad bit about all the criticism of DC. He has pluses and minuses. He is a very decent shooter. He's fast. He generally handles the ball OK (although there were some conceded lapses last night).

    His minuses are he's undersized a lot of the time. Sometimes he has a great deal of difficulty defensing the pick and roll (he seems to have a lot of trouble particularly getting around Roy when Roy comes out to hedge or temporarily switches off the pick & roll when DC gets picked). I also question his peripheral vision. Lance, for example, has more (maybe because Lance is taller, maybe because when DC drives he has his head down too much. I dunno). His timing sometimes with his passing is bad (DC's sometimes slow to recognize an open man -- a problem with a lot of guys on the Pacers and not just DC). It's frustrating sometimes to see DC hesitate to dump down to Roy or West or PG, for example when they're open for a couple of instants posting low, and then only belatedly try to make the pass when the defense has already recovered and the momentary window of opportunity has closed and his target is covered up again.

    I've also noticed, however, that the Pacers, generally, can't (or don't) fast break. How many times do we pull down a rebound, outlet to DC, and then have DC speed upcourt only to be the only Pacers player on the opponent side of the midline and then facing a 1 on 2 or a 1 on 3? DC then invariably does the only sane thing - circle back and wait for the rest of the team to come up, and get into a half-court set. It happens over and over again - like Groundhog Day.

    We're simply a pretty slow team and we don't fast break well and your point guard can't pick up an assist on occasions when there's simply no one up there to pass to. Then we're always faced with a half-court situation. Roy moves up, sets the pick and DC then is expected to dribble off the pick and make something happen. But usually, then, he's only got the choice of attacking the basket as an undersized guard taking on all the opposition's big men inside (which DC does or tries to do sometimes - usually with poor results) or stopping and taking the pull up J (which he usually opts for, often with pretty good results) or kicking out to someone outside (which he opts for a lot too - usually to Danny or PG (who are typically behind the 3-point stripe and not cutting to the hoop). About the only time we fast break is when we generate a defensive turnover. There's nothing about our offensive scheme geared to a point guard running fast breaks.

    I guess what I'm saying here is that DC doesn't dole out a lot of assists because of his own limitations sometimes. But also because we don't or can't seem to run much. We're really not very good in offensive transition. I kind of wonder sometimes if a Rashon Rondo would be doling out many assists if he (and not DC) was playing for our team.
    Last edited by IndyHoya; 03-07-2012 at 08:48 AM.

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  17. #114
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    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    When he gets the ball as often as other 6th man contenders he scores like they do. He's 12th in the NBA in bench points. But he's 39 shots and 18 points behind 11th then 75 behind 10th and 100+ behind the others in Top-10 with a amazing 221 attempts behind the leagues leader in bench points. As bad as Tyler's percentage is it's not far off many of those players who are in front of him.
    First of all, continually beating this drum of trying to force feed shots, to a scorer who is so woefully inefficient, will never make sense. It is ridiculous. Maybe if he was able to make more shots, he'd be getting more shots. As it is now, the fewer attempts he's getting, the better it is for the team.

    If he was able to help out in other ways beyond scoring, the minutes he's getting would be justifiable. Unfortunately, that is far from the case. Right now, Vogel being forced to stick with Tyler in such a big role, is becoming a real issue. He has done nothing to deserve the rotation spot he's been given. Vogel just doesn't have any other options. I hope Bird is able to alleviate that issue by adding a big man in the next 2 weeks.

    Second of all, where are you getting these numbers? You'd be well served to actually post a link to show some proof of your arguments. As best as I can tell, this argument that you continue to harp on, not only has no basis, but the evidence you are using to back it up, isn't even accurate. Are you just making these figures up?

    You're giving all of us who like to use statistical measures, in conjunction with observation, a bad name.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...r_by=pts_per_g

    Right now, Tyler is 16th in bench scoring. The leader, James Harden is taking about 2.6 more shots per game. Those additional attempts are netting him about 7.3 more points per game. Perhaps the reason why he is getting more attempts, is due to the fact that he is so much more efficient. If Tyler was able to score like Harden, nobody would have any issue if he was getting a couple more shots every game.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...rder_by=fg_pct

    Percentage-wise, he's 53rd out of the 61 qualified bench players. 53rd out of 61. Again, why should we try to force shots his way when he makes so few of them?

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...der_by=efg_pct

    He is also one of only 11 of these players who have not attempted a single 3 pointer. When you factor in where he's getting his shots from as a power forward, he is 58th out of 61 in eFG%. He's not just slightly behind the league leaders off the bench. He's nearly the worst.
    Last edited by Mackey_Rose; 03-07-2012 at 08:50 AM.

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  19. #115
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    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyHoya View Post
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    I've also noticed, however, that the Pacers, generally, can't (or don't) fast break. How many times do we pull down a rebound, outlet to DC, and then have DC speed upcourt only to be the only Pacers player on the opponent side of the midline and then facing a 1 on 2 or a 1 on 3? DC then invariably does the only sane thing - circle back and wait for the rest of the team to come up, and get into a half-court set. It happens over and over again - like Groundhog Day.

    We're simply a pretty slow team and we don't fast break well and your point guard can't pick up an assist on occasions when there's simply no one up there to pass to. Then we're always faced with a half-court situation. Roy moves up, sets the pick and DC then is expected to dribble off the pick and make something happen. But usually, then, he's only got the choice of attacking the basket as an undersized guard taking on all the opposition's big men inside (which DC does or tries to do sometimes - usually with poor results) or stopping and taking the pull up J (which he usually opts for, often with pretty good results) or kicking out to someone outside (which he opts for a lot too - usually to Danny or PG (who are typically behind the 3-point stripe and not cutting to the hoop).

    I guess what I'm saying here is that DC doesn't dole out a lot of assists because of his own limitations sometimes. But also because we don't run much. We're really not very good in transition. I kind of wonder sometimes if a Rashon Rondo would be doling out many assists if he (and not DC) was playing for our team.
    I think this is an error of cause and effect. The reason we're not very good in transition, is largely because DC is really bad in transition. He's bad for a variety of reasons, but they all essentially fall back on the same overarching theme: Darren Collison has a low basketball IQ.

    He rarely makes the right play in the open court, and when he does it is almost never on time. He almost always passes it far too late, and when he doesn't, he frequently passes it too early. Obviously, more often than not, he doesn't even look to pass. He'd rather take the ball, on his own, into a wad of defenders and try to get his own layup. Because he's such a poor passer on the break, that's probably the best option really.

    He never makes an effort to get the ball into the middle of the court. He always tries to take it up one of the alleys outside the lane. This is a major violation of basketball 101. By doing this, he allows defenders to multiple players and shut down our fast break.

    There was a good example last night that epitomized the DC-led fast breaks all too well.

    The first one was an example of him passing too early, we had a three-on-one with Collison leading the break down the right hand side. Again, why he didn't try to get to the middle is beyond me, because by doing this he forced Paul George to fill the lane in the middle of the court, and Danny Granger was on the left. I can't remember who the lone Hawks' defender was, but he was able to effectively guard all 3 Pacers due to the way Collison refuses to use the middle of the court.

    He never made the defender commit to him, and he dumped it back to George trailing down the middle. He was able to draw a foul and get to the line, but it should have been an easy layup if he had drawn the defender to him before passing it. I don't remember if he made both free throws or not, but it was an absolutely awful fast break, even if we got the 2 points out of it anyway.

  20. #116
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    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    in the 4th qtr last night we seen Tyler Hansbrough actually excute a baseline drive where he sealed off his defender giving him an open baby hook about 5 feet from the basket only to see him instead hop step into another defender, hesitate, giving his original defender time to recover and then of course he gets his shot blocked in typical flailing of the arms fashion.

    After seeing that I am really unsure if this guy knows what he is doing out there.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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  22. #117

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    Arguably neither one is a true PG, but at least Jack brings leadership, passion, moxie and consistent scoring ability. DC IMO hasn't brought squat in terms of consistency in any area.

    At this point you have a bundle of cap space an nobody untouchable. I'd be very active seeing what's out there unless there is a very quick turn around.

    The team is not bad, but it's not clear how good they are. And I don't think it has the pieces to develop into ECF/NBAF contenders even with more seasons involved. So there's no reason not to see if some of that reshaping process can't start now.

    You basically said in a post I put together last night in a rebuttal, but by error deleted while posting it. I was too tired to do it again.

    Collision has no leadership abilities, none. He couldn't lead a group of starving homeless people to the dinner table.

    He has little if any court vision. He doesn't understand when to pass the ball to others.

    Collision doesn't have Jack's tuffness nor his fire.

    Jack is bigger and stronger than Collision, but not as quick.

    Jack plays better "D". He can get physical and Collision can't.

    Since leaving the Pacers Jack has become a better player. I haven't seen Collision get better. I know umpteen coaches in his short career.

    Viewing both players stats they shoot 43% FG, Collison has the better 3 pt %, where Jack has the better FT%. Jack PPG is 14.5 and Collision PPG is 11. Jack asts are 1 ast higher than Collison, and a half reb higher. "It's the things previously stated that really makes Jack the better PG."

    Jack isn't the long term answer, but I feel he is the better answer at the present time. I'd love to have D'will but then there is reality. Jack's contract is only another year at 5 mil. 5 mil for a starting PG not on a rookie contract is extremely reasonable. 5 mil is reasonable for a "good quality" b/u PG that procduces like Jack does.

    I brought up Jack b/c Kaman is a player I'd like to see Bird acquire, and while he's doing so why not Jack as well? It's not like the Pacers couldn't use a fresh approach at PG.

  23. #118

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Free throws (or missing them) killed us tonight, and I'd argue it hurt more than the allowed o-reboundings and Pargo.

    Yes, it hurt. If the Pacers had hit 60% of their missed FT last night they would have won. But at the same time letting Pargo shoot 3's, not playing "D" the paint, poor rebing, poor shot selection, and not getting loose balls didn't help either.

  24. #119

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbert View Post
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    Your talking about Tyler right? Minus the turnovers, Roy had a pretty solid game tonight. Him, West, and Hill were the three reasons we were in this game at all. Roy doesn't have the highest PER (19.48 - 45th in the NBA) on the entire team by mistake, he hardly has played like "crap" this year let alone every game like you say.
    But 2 straight poorly played games against good teams doesn't bode well and gives credence to his disappearing.

  25. #120

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    You know what, I didn't watch the game tonight. Sucks that they lost.

    Instead, I watched the Big East women's tournament.

    The Uconn team is young. They've struggled this season. They're likely to finish the season with more losses than the last four years combined (they have to win the tournament not to) They lost to an unranked opponent, on their home floor (something they haven't done in probably 20 years) the lost the Big East regular season title, something they haven't done in a LONG time (at least 8 years) Notre Dame had beaten them three times in a row, something a Big East opponent hadn't done in 20 years..

    They won tonight. They beat Notre Dame. They grew up. Instead of not being able to score in the last 8 minutes of the game, 2 players stepped up and scored. Instead of loosening up the defense because they were tired, they got tougher. Instead of letting Notre Dame get offensive rebound after offensive rebound, our little shooting guards (forced to play PF) went in and battled an All American PF.

    It was all about maturity. Notre Dame is a significantly more talented team than they are. Not impossible for my girls to beat, better, but still significantly better. They just weren't mentally able to handle those games earlier in the season. They aren't completely developed, so they aren't consistent.

    People are all into the here and now. Well I'll tell you something, I've enjoyed watching this Uconn team more than any team in the past probably 8 years (whenever the heck Taurasi's senior season was). Because I've got the patience to understand that young players screw up..and they lose games they aren't supposed to lose. And they struggle to score at the end of games, particularly against better more mature teams. And they aren't consistent.

    But when something clicks, and they finally do grow up. That's a heck of a lot more fun than buying a great team. And if this team, as it stands now, gets better and more consistent, and say..makes it to the ECF, that'll be a heck of a lot more fun for everyone who watched them.

    Do players on this team have their faults, absolutely. I would never say their only problem is youth and inexperience. But you'd be surprised at the huge difference it makes.

    And I've watched it happen for teams at every level. (WCBB, MCBB, WNBA, NBA)

    So call it an excuse, enjoy being pessimistic, whatever. This team is talented and good, and much improved from last season - flaws and all.

    I like your new avater. Not sure what it is or represents, but it's nice.

  26. #121

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    I think this is an error of cause and effect. The reason we're not very good in transition, is largely because DC is really bad in transition. He's bad for a variety of reasons, but they all essentially fall back on the same overarching theme: Darren Collison has a low basketball IQ.

    He rarely makes the right play in the open court, and when he does it is almost never on time. He almost always passes it far too late, and when he doesn't, he frequently passes it too early. Obviously, more often than not, he doesn't even look to pass. He'd rather take the ball, on his own, into a wad of defenders and try to get his own layup. Because he's such a poor passer on the break, that's probably the best option really.
    I'm not sure yet whether it's a poor basketball IQ, his actual ability to see over players, as mentioned above, or whether it's just poor court "vision." It just seems that at least a few times each game, he has no aptitude in seeing the development of plays.
    Last edited by joeyd; 03-07-2012 at 10:54 AM.

  27. #122

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyHoya View Post
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    I guess what I'm saying here is that DC doesn't dole out a lot of assists because of his own limitations sometimes. But also because we don't or can't seem to run much. We're really not very good in offensive transition. I kind of wonder sometimes if a Rashon Rondo would be doling out many assists if he (and not DC) was playing for our team.
    I think this is a good point, and one that ultimately may have been or is a deciding factor in a lack of action on the part of Bird in moving to get a Rondo or even Nash.

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  29. #123
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    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by joeyd View Post
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    I'm not sure yet whether it's a poor basketball IQ, his actual ability to see over players, as mentioned above, or whether it's just poor court "vision." It just seems that at least a few times each game, he has no aptitude in seeing the development of plays.
    Wouldn't you say that is a pretty major part of basketball IQ though?

    I'd argue that seeing how plays develop, and being able to anticipate what is going to happen ahead of time, is the main function of a basketball IQ.

  30. #124

    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Wouldn't you say that is a pretty major part of basketball IQ though?

    I'd argue that seeing how plays develop, and being able to anticipate what is going to happen ahead of time, is the main function of a basketball IQ.
    Hmmm. Maybe. But in academia at least, all the "book-learned" intelligence in the world won't help you if you cannot apply it, and some people simply can't. I have seen very "smart" people do poorly on IQ tests which really evaluate logic and application.

    I guess I'd argue that in the case of basketball, you can anticipate, and I guess that has to do with basketball IQ, but court vision has more to do with dealing with the actual dynamics of the game in real time as they are developing.
    Last edited by joeyd; 03-07-2012 at 11:25 AM.

  31. #125
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    Default Re: Hawks/Pacers postgame thread 03/06/12

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersRule View Post
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    I try not to be affected by homerism, but in my opinion the Pacers should be better than those three teams ORL, ATL, PHI. The fact that we're not has got me a bit frustrated. If only we could get a legit starting point guard and move DC to the bench...
    The Pacers shouldn't be better than Atl, Phi and Orl. At least, not this year. We should be better than them next year. This year we're roughly on par and all we need to do is to beat on them and advance to the 2nd round.

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