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Thread: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Ignoring his defense because he makes good passes and is a good leader is ridiculous to me, didn't we destroy Troy Murphy for his horrible D for years even though he was putting better numbers than West? crazy right?
    You act like there are three degrees of defensive players. Good, bad and average and that both Troy and West are bad, therefore they are the same. West is a much better defender than Troy. Troy is probably the worst defensive power forward in the whole NBA. West isn't near that level

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    You act like there are three degrees of defensive players. Good, bad and average and that both Troy and West are bad, therefore they are the same. West is a much better defender than Troy. Troy is probably the worst defensive power forward in the whole NBA. West isn't near that level
    West is not near that level but he is pretty bad, by the way could it be possible that Murphy looked worse because he was playing with teammates that were just as bad on D? I've seen him on the Lakers with Bynum and he is not looking as bad as he looked here.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    You act like there are three degrees of defensive players. Good, bad and average and that both Troy and West are bad, therefore they are the same. West is a much better defender than Troy. Troy is probably the worst defensive power forward in the whole NBA. West isn't near that level
    agreed West defense is a lot better than people are making it out to be

    the reason the game of basketball is so intriguing and how teams are built is intriguing IMO because the players have to fit each other. Carlos Boozer is a awful defender almost Troy bad. But The Bulls have done a beautiful job of putting guys around him that mask his weakness. Lou Deng and Noah are the perfect guys to put next to a weak defender. Basketball players cant be judged on their play alone the system and the players around them have a lot to do with how they perform and that is why constructing a team that fits well together is key.


    I have to laugh at Vnz Tyler is a "beast" yet West is superior on both sides of the ball(but he sucks) and on offense it isn't even close.

    just love the hypocrisy

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    agreed West defense is a lot better than people are making it out to be

    the reason the game of basketball is so intriguing and how teams are built is intriguing IMO because the players have to fit each other. Carlos Boozer is a awful defender almost Troy bad. But The Bulls have done a beautiful job of putting guys around him that mask his weakness. Lou Deng and Noah are the perfect guys to put next to a weak defender. Basketball players cant be judged on their play alone the system and the players around them have a lot to do with how they perform and that is why constructing a team that fits well together is key.


    I have to laugh at Vnz Tyler is a "beast" yet West is superior on both sides of the ball(but he sucks) and on offense it isn't even close.

    just love the hypocrisy
    I guess you had me on ignore or you only read what you want because I've been dissapointed of Tyler all year I even mentioned "our power forwards made Anderson/Young look like Hall of Famers", find me a post on this thread were I'm saying that "Tyler is a beast" yep once again you are full of crap.

    I also like that you are mentioning Boozer as an awful defender and Boozer's D is similar to West's, so I wonder what that makes West.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 03-01-2012 at 01:48 PM.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    I feel like almost every thread ends in a stupid argument over pointless, minor details.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The Pacers aren't going to make it out of the first round, because of how badly DWest is on defense?

    Here, waste your time with this instead. Pee away.

    This.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    This sounds great and all but if he keeps playing the same type of defense he has been playing until now we won't be moving pass the 1st round, his D is horrible, his offense is not that great either.
    We should have paid Nene 14 million dollars and then we would be NBA champs.

    We may not make it out of the first round, I don't know, (though right now I would like our chances against the Hawks or Sixers), but West's D won't be the reason why. As long as George and Granger are bringing effort defensively, it helps mask everything West cannot do on defense. West's impact on our offense has been huge. He clearly helps Roy when it comes to spacing much more than Tyler or McRoberts ever did.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 03-01-2012 at 02:47 PM.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    We should have paid Nene 14 million dollars and then we would be NBA CHAMPIONSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
    Good way of trying to get those thanks coming, good job.

    I predict over 10 thanks, that should make you feel good.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    My point of not making out the first round is because I am looking at the playoffs match ups and there are probably 3 teams that have power forwards that are as equal or as bad defenders as Dwest(Chicago, Sixers, Orlando), other than that I don't see a power forward that West could stop for doing his thing.

    Ignoring his defense because he makes good passes and is a good leader is ridiculous to me, didn't we destroy Troy Murphy for his horrible D for years even though he was putting better numbers than West? crazy right?

    Again, to win on the playoffs you need to play defense, there is a reason why Tom T always uses Gibson to shut people down instead of Boozer's passing ability and shooting, you win with defense.


    edit: I mentioned Orlando and Philly but if I remember correctly our power forwards made their guys look like Hall of Famers(Young and Anderson).
    Of course you give West a pass you never gave Murphy because of his leadership. And I think West's D actually shows improvement in crunch time, something you could never say about Murphy. West has delivered on more than one occasion in big situations already for us and he's not even 100% yet. I give him great credit to even be this far along on his ACL recovery. Very few players ever have done as well he has to come back as quickly as he did and even at this level of play.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Good way of trying to get those thanks coming, good job.

    I predict over 10 thanks, that should make you feel good.
    I had already edited it by the time you posted, you're slow on the draw.

    Also, you're the one who always brings up "thanks" when talking to me or about me. I, for one, could care less whether one person, zero people or -10 people thank one of my posts, but you seem to be very intent on harping on it. Doesn't make much sense to me.

    Vnzla, you're one of the biggest "stats don't mean everything" guys on this board and yet here you are bringing Troy Murphy into a conversation about David West, how does that make any sense?
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 03-01-2012 at 02:54 PM.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by PurduePacer View Post
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    I feel like almost every thread ends in a stupid argument over pointless, minor details.
    Is this really a minor detail in this case? Vnzla is wondering why people give David West a pass for his average to below average D, but never gave a pass to Murphy...I mean try to digest that one for a second.

    EDIT: Also, everyone is acting like West's stats are terrible, when in reality, they are pretty close to on par with his career averaged. He's just playing 5-6 less minutes a game then he has in his career in the past. Last year West played 35 MPG, this year he is playing 29.7 MPG. And even with playing nearly 6 minutes less per game, he is only averaging .7 less rebounds a game than he did last year. West averaged 7.5 RPG last year and is at 6.8 last year. So maybe his assists are down? Nope again. Last year in nearly 6 more MPG West averaged 2.3 APG that has dropped down a whopping .1 APG this season to 2.2 APG.

    So yeah, his scoring is down, but he's also recovering from one of the most catastrophic physical injuries you can have. However, his rebounds and assists are virtually identical to last year and he is doing it in 6 less minutes a game. That is impressive. David West having a poor statistical season? I say bullocks.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 03-01-2012 at 03:02 PM.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Jeez, how many people actually read the article?

    It's about West's complementary nature offensively.

    Not about his stats, not about his defensive play.

    Why is it that people want to pick apart each individual player's weaknesses, when most of those don't manner in the milieu of a game that's played as a team?

    Most NBA players have to be spectacularly bad at a specific skill (read: Murphy) or poorly matched up with non-complementary teammates (read: GSW) for it to have real, fundamental meaning.

    I can see pointing out that we have no real consistently effective second team lineup. I can see pointing out that we, as a team, seem to struggle feeding the low post effectively.

    But to pick apart West's average to subpar team defensive skills seems like a waste of time, and borderline trollish.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by PurduePacer View Post
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    I feel like almost every thread ends in a stupid argument over pointless, minor details.
    I think that's pretty accurate, although the details aren't always minor - it's just the way some people structure their arguments (and don't know how to let anything go) that's the problem, imo. I try to read all the posts before I respond in a thread and for the past 6 months or so by the time I get to the end I am annoyed enough that I don't even bother half the time. I can't avoid it by using my ignore list because the people I want to ignore the most tend to get quoted over and over again. Besides, the thread has often been narrowed down into "Yes, he is/X sucks!" and "No, he isn't/x doesn't suck!" anyway, so I figure - what's the point?

    It's disheartening, especially when the team is doing so well overall. That's not to say there shouldn't be disagreement and discussion - of course there should be, it's a message board. But does almost every thread have to end in ? There have definitely been periods of time when in-depth but at least semi-respectful disagreements were normal around here, and no, it wasn't "boring." Now the board seems to be dripping with sarcasm, exaggeration, and self-congratulation. I'd hoped the combativeness would ease up just a bit post-JOB, but it really hasn't.

    Ah well. I should be working anyway.
    Last edited by gummy; 03-01-2012 at 04:57 PM.
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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    If West really wanted to, he could score more points than he currently is. Same's true of Roy, Danny, Paul George, and Collison.

    Every one of the starters has sacrificed a couple ppg in order to build a well-rounded offense.
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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    If West really wanted to, he could score more points than he currently is. Same's true of Roy, Danny, Paul George, and Collison.

    Every one of the starters has sacrificed a couple ppg in order to build a well-rounded offense.
    And our team is better for it.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    If West really wanted to, he could score more points than he currently is. Same's true of Roy, Danny, Paul George, and Collison.

    Every one of the starters has sacrificed a couple ppg in order to build a well-rounded offense.
    Indiana is in the middle in scoring I'm pretty sure they are looking to score more and yes I know we are 22 and 12.

    Edit: and we are still on the bottom 8 at shooting percentage.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 03-01-2012 at 05:41 PM.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Again, to win on the playoffs you need to play defense, there is a reason why Tom T always uses Gibson to shut people down instead of Boozer's passing ability and shooting, you win with defense.
    This part is true. However, Gibson can shoot and pass as well. Gibson is not only a good defender. He is a great role player that can defend and provide you valuable offense to boot.

    We don't have a player like Gibson to back up West. Hans may be a better scorer than Gibson (mainly because he can draw more fouls and hit most of his FTs) but defensively he is not the upgrade that Gibson is to Boozer.

    Lou is our best defender at PF. I doubt that we would want to see Lou getting major time during the playoffs. He is an excellent defender but offensively he is not as good as Gibson.

    If we could merge Lou and Hans together (and get a Louer Amundsbrough or a Tylis Hanson) then we could use this hybrid in the same way that Tom T uses Gibson. We cannot do this, though.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Edit: and we are still on the bottom 8 at shooting percentage.
    Do you know any way to see team shooting percentage by game? I'd like to see what it's been like recently. I expect that a lot of the really poor shooting came early in the season, and will drag down the percentage all season long. But I don't know how to get that data.
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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Do you know any way to see team shooting percentage by game? I'd like to see what it's been like recently. I expect that a lot of the really poor shooting came early in the season, and will drag down the percentage all season long. But I don't know how to get that data.
    According to teamrankings.com we are shooting 44% in the last 3 games. Our effective FG is at 48.4%. Our non-blocked 2 Pt is at 52.2%.

    I guess that the most disappointing fact is that we are in the 28th place in non-blocked 2 Pt attempts for the whole season shooting 49%. In this category we're only better than the Pistons (48.7%) and the Bobcats (48.1%). Even the Wizards are slightly above us (49.1%).

    The good thing is that we still are a good team despite missing several open shots.

    PS: Here's the link -> http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...ocked-2-pt-pct

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-chat-w...rk-nugent-3112


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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Do you know any way to see team shooting percentage by game? I'd like to see what it's been like recently. I expect that a lot of the really poor shooting came early in the season, and will drag down the percentage all season long. But I don't know how to get that data.
    I have no idea but I know that this last few games got us moving from bottom 5 to bottom 8, we are still missing a lot shots.

    edit: Here are the numbers from the last five games, we are ranked at 11th(last five games).

    http://www.nba.com/statistics/sortab...able1.html#top

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    I think the best measurement of team offense and defense is OFF EFF and DEF EFF because that way you don't get deceived when a team has a low FG% but gets offensive rebounds (or defensively, gets people to miss but can't get enough D rebounds), plus it balances every team by accounting for pace.

    The Pacers are currently 13th in the league in OFF EFF (which sounds about right to me), while our DEF EFF is currently 7th, which also seems about right to me.

    We're fine. Nothing spectacular, but we're doing quite well overall. When you're in the top half in both OFF EFF and also DEF EFF, and one of the two is top 10 (preferably top 5, however), you're doing a lot of things right.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/tea...ff/order/false

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