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Thread: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

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    Default NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.c...act-on-pacers/

    David West is, by most individual measures, having one of the worst seasons of his nine-year N.B.A. career. His scoring is down per game, per minute and per possession. He’s currently posting a career-high turnover rate. His Player Efficiency Rating (P.E.R.) has plummeted from 20.4 last season to a far more average 16.9 this season. West’s production has taken a significant hit in the transition from New Orleans to Indiana (and more specifically, from Chris Paul to Darren Collison), and yet the Pacers have risen to offensive competence specifically by way of West’s addition. His impact is rooted in teamwide augmentation rather than individual dominance, but West has nonetheless served as the impetus behind Indiana’s rise to the Eastern Conference’s second tier.

    West’s influence begins with Roy Hibbert, who has made the most profound leap among all Pacers. Not all of Hibbert’s improvements stem from West’s addition alone, but Hibbert himself is the first to credit West (via Conrad Brunner of Pacers.com):

    “[West is] probably the biggest reason I’m an All-Star this year,” Hibbert said. “Hands-down, he’s helped my career so much offensively and defensively. We communicate really well on the court. To tell you the truth, we don’t even have to talk.

    “We just know each other really well. As weird as that sounds, we can just look at each other and we know what to do. He’s helped me out so much. No disrespect to Tyler (Hansbrough) or Josh McRoberts or Jeff Foster but since D-West got here my game has elevated so much.”

    Hibbert’s claims are certainly borne out in the statistical representations of West’s impact. The Pacers have only two consistently effective lineups, both with West and Hibbert as crucial components of their offensive and defensive strategy. That’s indicative of the drop-off between West and reserve forward Tyler Hansbrough, but it also speaks to Hibbert and West’s synergy – that organic compatibility of playing styles and personalities that allows players to feed off one another.

    West never shared the court with a true, back-to-the-basket post threat in New Orleans, but he is a natural as Hibbert’s counterpoint. West has not maximized his individual scoring impact with the Pacers yet, but he walks the fine line between spacing the floor for Hibbert with midrange jumpers and remaining active on the offensive glass. When West isn’t spotting up from 18 feet as a way to clear out some room for Hibbert, he gravitates toward the baseline on the block opposite Hibbert. From there, West is technically out of the play action (and out of bounds entirely), but he keeps the passing angles open for Hibbert to kick the ball out to his shooters, doesn’t bring an extra defender into the post, and somehow maintains solid offensive rebounding position in the process. West simply ducks under the rim and fights outward once a shot attempt goes up, giving an off-ball post player the rare box-out advantage on the offensive glass.

    And that’s to say nothing of Hibbert and West’s inverted high-low relationship, which creates open spot-up opportunities for Hibbert and high-percentage interior looks for West. The two players have their favorite spots on the floor, but the beauty of their chemistry is that both are largely interchangeable – they form a high-low tandem that is just as easily low-high. Hibbert has many talents, and the reason he and West work so well together – oddly enough – stems from their similar versatility. Both share in and profit from their flexibility, a theme that extends from their specific chemistry to a teamwide context.

    Similarly beneficial lines exist between, among others, West and Danny Granger (who shoots a substantially better percentage from every zone with West in the lineup), and West and Darren Collison (who finally has a capable pick-and-roll partner in lieu of Hibbert’s plodding or Hansbrough’s freneticism). The Pacers are still a flawed team with holes to fill, but West’s off-season signing filled perhaps the biggest –- that of the rare, do-it-all post player who brings streaks of offensive and defensive dominance in a team-friendly, facilitating style. West may still not be performing up to his personal standard, but he has managed to fill in the gaps spectacularly.
    Wow, this guy totally nailed it. Between making Collison a legitimate facilitator through the seemingly constant barrage of pick/pops, to creating space with Hibbert with his deadly midrange game... he's just really worked out well.

    Part of the reason I get so nervous about Hill taking over for Collison though, is that the pick/pop game will go away... which breaks down Hibbert's effectiveness as well, if West isn't drawing that defender.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    I know a stat that shows West's impact:

    22-12.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    BTW, here is the data the article alludes to:

    http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits...-2012&team=IND

    These are actually fairly startling data, which expose our relative lack of depth.

    It's also interesting to see how playing Hill at the 2 seems perhaps more effective than George... however there's a small sample size there, and George's game has really come on here lately.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Fantastic write-up.
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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Good thing he is not talking about West's D.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    The fact that West is playing below his regular standards is not too alarming to me personally, I think it may be post-injury related readjustment, and he should only continue to improve as he rounds back into form.

    In fact, I think its a great sign, because we are already playing great, and we will only get better as West recovers to pre-injury form.
    "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Honestly, I think D West will be more valuable to us next year than this one. He'll have an entire summer to train and get him self back to pre injury form as well as having the experience of getting acquainted with the team this season.

    I think in terms of developement, the team is 1 year ahead of the curve and Wests vet presence has played a good role in that. Factor in whatever Legend does to "strengthen this team" and whatever success we have this season will be magnified next year.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Strangely West has better numbers in our losses than he does when we win.

    PER36
    14.4 and 8.2 in Wins on 45.9% shooting
    16.2 and 8.5 in losses on 47.2% shooting

    I knew he had big back-to-back games in our losing streak earlier this month but was still a bit surprised to see an almost 2 PPG difference on the PER36. I was also surprised Tyler has a .3 higher PER36 PPG than West despite shooing far worse and taking .9 less shots on the PER36 rate, but I guess making more FT PER36 then the next highest guy on the team even shoots will do that for you.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    Strangely West has better numbers in our losses than he does when we win.

    PER36
    14.4 and 8.2 in Wins on 45.9% shooting
    16.2 and 8.5 in losses on 47.2% shooting

    I knew he had big back-to-back games in our losing streak earlier this month but was still a bit surprised to see an almost 2 PPG difference on the PER36. I was also surprised Tyler has a .3 higher PER36 PPG than West despite shooing far worse and taking .9 less shots on the PER36 rate, but I guess making more FT PER36 then the next highest guy on the team even shoots will do that for you.
    of course he brings Hans into it...

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDavisBrothers View Post
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    of course he brings Hans into it...
    I was just looking at the those numbers for West and was legit surprised to see Tyler scoring at a higher rate despite all those low scoring games he's had when not getting many shots and all the post of him killing the team. I know West is and should be the stater and have never said otherwise. But by all means feel free to make a big deal out of something so minor, you seem good at overreactions posts so why quit doing what you're good at.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    Strangely West has better numbers in our losses than he does when we win.

    PER36
    14.4 and 8.2 in Wins on 45.9% shooting
    16.2 and 8.5 in losses on 47.2% shooting

    I knew he had big back-to-back games in our losing streak earlier this month but was still a bit surprised to see an almost 2 PPG difference on the PER36. I was also surprised Tyler has a .3 higher PER36 PPG than West despite shooing far worse and taking .9 less shots on the PER36 rate, but I guess making more FT PER36 then the next highest guy on the team even shoots will do that for you.
    West will call his own number more when we are behind, doesn't surprise me he scores more in losses. He's trying to bring us back into games.

    And of course Tyler has a higher PER36 PPG, when Tyler is in the game he is looking to score all the time. West isn't.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    West will call his own number more when we are behind, doesn't surprise me he scores more in losses. He's trying to bring us back into games.

    And of course Tyler has a higher PER36 PPG, when Tyler is in the game he is looking to score all the time. West isn't.
    And a lot of times when West is scoring the rest of the team sucks or we are losing bad.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Good thing he is not talking about West's D.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    I was just looking at the those numbers for West and was legit surprised to see Tyler scoring at a higher rate despite all those low scoring games he's had when not getting many shots and all the post of him killing the team. I know West is and should be the stater and have never said otherwise. But by all means feel free to make a big deal out of something so minor, you seem good at overreactions posts so why quit doing what you're good at.
    I just good at pointing out your continued Hansbrough agenda

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    I haven't checked in a few weeks, but last I did, West's per 36 stats were almost exactly what he's bene producing for multiple seasons. If that's holding up, I think it's mostly a matter of how many minutes he does or doesn't play.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    And of course Tyler has a higher PER36 PPG, when Tyler is in the game he is looking to score all the time. West isn't.
    West has a 18.1 PER36 PPG in his career acting like Tyler or anyone but Danny being in front of him is some lock is totally off base to me. West needs to get more shots off, as in my view it should be Danny, West, Roy Tyler, PG, Hill.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    image
    A OK I forgot let's look the other way.......................

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDavisBrothers View Post
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    I just good at pointing out your continued Hansbrough agenda
    I do like Tyler that's no secret, but where is a agenda to this post? I know West is better and should be the starter? I want West to get more shots but you are here attempting to hijack the thread and make it all about Tyler and yourself.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    I do like Tyler that's no secret, but where is a agenda to this post? I know West is better and should be the starter? I want West to get more shots but you are here attempting to hijack the thread and make it all about Tyler and yourself.
    Don't get your panties in a bunch, jeez

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    A OK I forgot let's look the other way.......................
    I'm sure this mentality goes over well with your friends/family/spouse when you point out their flaws, weaknesses, and the things you find unattractive about them...

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I'm sure this mentality goes over well with your friends/family/spouse when you point out their flaws, weaknesses, and the things you find unattractive about them...

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDavisBrothers View Post
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    Don't get your panties in a bunch, jeez
    I'm not the one worked up here. I made a passing comment about something that was a legit surprise when looking at West's and the teams numbers and you make a big deal out of it when there was no reason to. If I was in here saying West sucks and Tyler should be starting then I could see your point, but I clearly know that's not the case.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    West has a 18.1 PER36 PPG in his career acting like Tyler or anyone but Danny being in front of him is some lock is totally off base to me. West needs to get more shots off, as in my view it should be Danny, West, Roy Tyler, PG, Hill.
    You realize that Roy gets a whole .4 shots more per game than West right? And considering Roy is shooting over 50% for the season, shouldn't Roy be taking more shots than West?

    This team wins as a team. And looking at their FGA's, only Danny and Roy are ahead of West, Roy by .4. I really don't see the need to West to get more shots. Our starting 5 is a very balanced unit and I just want good shots to be taken each time down the court. All 5 of our starters are more than capable on the offensive end.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    You realize that Roy gets a whole .4 shots more per game than West right....
    West is the better overall scorer and needs to take more shots, Roy needs to cut out the long jumper and make his living on the post and off the offensive glass. When playoff time gets here we don't know if Roy is 100% going to have his head on straight and be in the game mentally or if he will get into foul trouble like last year. We know West isn't afraid to take the big shots as he's clutch and come playoff time his mid-range game is going be golden, we need to start using our players like we are going to come May.

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    Default Re: NYT: Stats Fail to Show West’s Impact on Pacers

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../westda01.html

                                                                                                                     
    Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
    2003-04 23 NOH NBA 71 1 930 4.2 8.8 .474 0.0 0.1 .000 2.2 3.1 .713 4.5 7.0 11.5 2.3 1.0 1.1 1.9 4.5 10.6
    2004-05 24 NOH NBA 30 8 552 4.9 11.2 .436 0.1 0.3 .400 2.2 3.3 .680 2.6 5.8 8.4 1.5 0.8 1.0 2.4 4.0 12.1
    2005-06 25 NOK NBA 74 74 2526 7.6 14.8 .512 0.0 0.2 .273 2.8 3.4 .843 2.4 5.4 7.8 1.3 0.9 0.9 1.5 3.0 18.0
    2006-07 26 NOK NBA 52 52 1900 7.1 15.0 .476 0.2 0.5 .320 3.5 4.3 .824 2.4 5.6 8.0 2.2 0.8 0.7 1.9 2.7 18.0
    2007-08 27 NOH NBA 76 76 2870 7.9 16.4 .482 0.1 0.3 .240 3.8 4.4 .850 2.3 6.2 8.5 2.2 0.8 1.2 2.1 2.6 19.6
    2008-09 28 NOH NBA 76 76 2982 7.4 15.6 .472 0.1 0.3 .240 4.4 5.0 .884 1.9 5.9 7.8 2.1 0.6 0.8 2.0 2.5 19.2
    2009-10 29 NOH NBA 81 81 2949 7.6 15.0 .505 0.1 0.3 .259 3.6 4.2 .865 2.0 5.4 7.4 2.9 0.9 0.7 2.1 2.8 18.8
    2010-11 30 NOH NBA 70 70 2451 7.8 15.3 .508 0.0 0.1 .222 3.9 4.8 .807 2.3 5.5 7.8 2.4 1.0 0.9 2.1 3.0 19.4
    2011-12 31 IND NBA 34 34 1009 6.1 13.2 .464 0.1 0.3 .250 2.6 3.3 .796 2.1 6.2 8.3 2.7 1.0 0.9 1.8 3.0 15.0
    Career NBA 564 472 18169 7.2 14.8 .489 0.1 0.3 .263 3.5 4.2 .837 2.3 5.8 8.1 2.2 0.8 0.9 1.9 2.9 18.1


    Those are David West's per-36 number right now. Aside from the points (which is because he's both making and attempting two less shots per game, and his FG% is down this year), he's basically giving you the same production as last year. About the same rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, turnovers, and fouls.

    If he can get his FG% back up closer to 50, it'll almost be identical. One or two less difficult in-traffic attempts replaced by one or two more pick and pops would probably do the trick.

    Oh, and I notice his FTAs are down (as is his %). Odds for a shooter to go down like that. Makes me think it'll go back up by next season.

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