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Thread: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

  1. #176
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    http://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/09/sp...ned-20000.html

    Vernon Maxwell, the Houston Rockets' starting shooting guard, was suspended for at least 10 games and fined $20,000 by the National Basketball Association today for running into the stands and punching a heckler during a game at Portland.

    Rod Thorn, the league's vice president for operations, called the case unprecedented in his 10 years in the league and said, "We've never had anybody go into the stands, unless it was a fight among players that spilled over into the seats."

    The fine matched the highest in league history and the suspension was the second longest, exceeded only by the 26-game ban in the 1977-78 season handed Kermit Washington of Portland for breaking the jaw of another player, Rudy Tomjanovich of Houston, now Maxwell's coach.

    During his suspension, Maxwell must meet with league personnel. A decision will then be made as to whether he can return to active status after the 10th game. The suspension began with last night's game at Sacramento.

    Maxwell ran a dozen rows into the stands and punched 35-year-old Steve George during a timeout in the third quarter of Houston's 120-82 loss to Portland. George is a home products salesman from Atlanta.

    And from Wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernon_Maxwell
    1995: In a game at Portland on February 6, he ran into the stands to punch a fan, later claiming the fan had heckled him over his wife's miscarriage (which was denied).
    Note the lack of a fan brawl with Houston players at this point.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    I wonder how different, if at all, things would've played out if Reggie would've stayed for one more season? Would he have been the glue to hold things together and focus that team on a "Us against the League" tour the following season.... If Reggie stays does Dale Davis stay? With Reggie here does Ron still want traded and if he does can Reggie talk him back? Or if not, with Reggie and Dale here does that negate some of the on the court sting of losing Artest from the floor? Does it even open possibility of trading Artest on our own terms, possibly even before he requests a trade?

    What if... What if... What if....
    It's brutal BBall. Spilled milk I realize, but dang...so close to being something awesome.

    And I was always mad that they didn't keep James Jones as the new "Reggie", meaning guy who runs off screens and hits 3s. Jones is still brilliant in that role, and could easily match Reggie's end of career defensive level. He at least had the hops to block shots which is something Reggie didn't do.

    Clutch? Who knows, but people might have forgotten how clutch he was in Reggie's last season when they played the Nets and Reggie got them back in it with a flurry of late scoring. Jones was the one who hit the final key shot and then FTs, not Reggie.


    So many ways this team could have survived the brawl. Stern wasn't the only one who killed the team.

    I guess I agree with a lot of you who feel it was inevitable or maybe just for the best in the long run. But it will always remain a really pointless detour in the team's history, and in the careers of all the main culprits.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Just now got the time to read all this, but it's an awesome read. Definitely worth the time. Can't believe all that happened.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    So many ways this team could have survived the brawl. Stern wasn't the only one who killed the team.

    I guess I agree with a lot of you who feel it was inevitable or maybe just for the best in the long run. But it will always remain a really pointless detour in the team's history, and in the careers of all the main culprits.
    Talking about the brawl, "what-ifs" and such these past two days really makes it hard to focus on how well we are doing right now. I keep forgetting about DG and Hibbert. West, etc. To me when I think about all this it's just not happening.

    To me these what-ifs are making me really light-headed.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Gnome and Hicks have also done plenty of trips to other arenas and can at the least attest to different spirits/attitudes in various arenas. For example, in OKC Gnome has mentioned that they don't sit till the first made basket by the Thunder. In Indy that's never been close to happening, its just not something people do and you'd end up with people behind you upset until everyone started doing it and it got accepted.
    Dude, this reminds me of our discussion in the Golden State thread...I don't sit until Indy makes a basket

    I always let the people behind me know, so they usually stand too. But, yeah.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hibbert View Post
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    For all intensive purposes, you only caught this because of your extra-century perception.
    He is the real deal, a bonified grammarian.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Great job again by the Grantland Gang. Love that site!

    I'm glad to see something publicly acknowledging that the Pistons were clearly looking for a fight well before it finally broke out (mentioning all the hard fouls after the game was decided - especially Ben's uncalled flagrant on Ron that probably would have started the brawl if World Peace hadn't been put on "double secret zero tolerance probation" by Stern prior to the game). That seemed to be ignored by all reporting media, but I think is very relevant to the events of the evening.

    Ben Wallace caused it all acting like an idiot, then not leaving after he couldnít goad Ron into a fight (as he was so desperate to do). Other things may have been able to reduce the carnage, but the fact remains, one guy was acting like a wild jackass who would not be tamed and he got off easy in spite of igniting the entire melee.

    I also liked that someone finally pointed out the Pacers short bench. I donít know how many times Iíve heard talking heads ponder why Ron was still out there after the game was decided (ignoring why Ben was still out there) when the answer for the Pacers was obvious.

    As to ESPNís change of how the story got reported, John Saunders did address this on a ĎSports Reportersí sometime later (due to some other unrelated incident of idiot fans behaving badly). I donít remember exactly what he said, but it was along the lines of management telling the on-air talent after the brawl that the paying customers are always right and Saunders was pretty much saying, ďI donít care what you tell me to say, Iím telling you that people who act like idiots arenít right and Iím not changing my story then or nowĒ. He seemed kind of defiant while just pointing out the obvious but he mentioned that he was "supposed" to not blame the fans for the Malice at the Palace which shocked me.

    Its not healthy, but I donít think Iíll ever not be pissed off about this thing and the way the Pacers were targeted for punishment.

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  10. #183

    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    With Reggie here does Ron still want traded and if he does can Reggie talk him back? ...

    Does it even open possibility of trading Artest on our own terms, possibly even before he requests a trade?

    What if...
    We will never know of course, but my opinion:

    Ron was in denial, focused on his rap album, feeling like a victim, and (still) refusing treatment for his issues. If he hadn't demanded a trade at the beginning of the season, he would have acted up and either gotten suspended, demanded a trade, or caused a trade by his own actions long before that season was out, whatever the team record, regardless of whether team leaders wanted him to change in any way.

    In retrospect, ChicagoJ was right. Ron's fuse was lit and it was gonna blow, sadly, and we perhaps even got more decent years out of him than we should have based upon his history before the Malice at the palace and, truthfully, before he ever donned a Pacers uniform.
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  12. #184
    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    I remeber I was home from Purdue for the weekend and was out at a party that night at Botswin dorm at Ball State for some casino night type thing. I remember after the party winded down went back to one of my other friends dorm room and decided, well hopefully the Pacers kicked the Pistons ***.

    Then turn on the TV to espn and just see rolling coverage of Artest and Jackson and JO and the fighting and going into the stands. I remember being absolutely stunned and wondering how it all started and watched well through the night and it really seemed like ok well this was the Pistons fault they started and their idiot fans escalated it. Good for our guys for standing up for themselves, hope they knocked a couple of those morons out. I figured since it seemed like the media had absolved us for the most part that public perception and opinion was on our side. I though most of the blame was going to fall on the pistons players and fans and where the brunt of the punishment was going to fall.

    Then reality hit, and the suspensions were announced. I can remember thinking it'll be alright we'll just hold serve till our guys get back then take it out on people in the playoffs and artest was only suspended for the season not the playoffs.

    I remember like others have mentioned the worst part was next season when Ron demanded a trade and all the other ensuing off-court problems started happening. I remember talking to my friend at one point who knew I was a huge Pacers I think around the 2007 season sometime asking me. When do you think the Pacers will recover from that? I remember going online and checking when the contracts of JO, Jackson, and Tinsley were all gone and off our books and said...ooohh 2009 or 2010'ish.

    I honestly dont think if Bird wouldn't have cleaned house, and came up with his whole vague 3 year plan, or if I wouldn't have been to see Hibbert play his first game for us in Pepsi Colliseum, I don't think I'd have continued to follow the Pacers as closely as I have. I don't think I would have stopped being a fan but definately wouldn't have suffered through all the bad and just jumped back on probably this year.

    It definitely has put where we are right now in perspective, and made it that much sweeter for those of us that stuck with it.

  13. #185
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    As has been said, a great article. The responses have been great as well. I remember having to go to school the next day and having to explain why my favorite team, had a Reggie poster on the wall, had done that.

    So, if the refs calls "all balance out in the end" then I'm looking forward the lebron d wade and rose all fouling out in the playoffs to "balance out" the four point play and this little episode. Don't ever say again the officials don't affect the outcome.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    "Breen: There were a bunch of people right above where the Pacers were going out. And there was this one young woman who was very nicely dressed in the midst of it. I remember thinking, Oh, this poor woman. In the midst of this mob mentality, I hope she's going to be OK. And as I'm saying that in my head, she pulls out a bottle, a full water bottle, and throws it at point-blank range at the Pacers going off the floor. I couldn't believe it. Even this nicely dressed woman who seemed so out of place in the mob, she just got sucked into the whole mob mentality and it showed you how scary it could be."

    Exactly right. Mob mentaility.

    I will always remember watching this game. I hadn't gone to a Pacers game in a long, long time. I had purchased tickets a week prior for the first home game directly after this game. Crazy.

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  16. #187
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I will say the sight of Jamaal Tinsley waving that dustpan around as if he will fight everyone in the arena with that thing, was without a doubt one of the funniest things I have ever seen in my life. To this day I still laugh whenever I see that or just when I think about it

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  18. #188
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    I couldn't help but laugh when the Tinsley with a dustpan part came up.

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  20. #189
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Tom Wilson acted like the Pistons staff wasn't at fault at all. He's a complete idiot.
    Last edited by Pacersalltheway10; 03-02-2012 at 04:14 PM.

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  22. #190
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    What an awesome read. The saddest part about that nigt for me was seeing Reggie (in that $x,000 suit) getting pelted with drinks, food, and other objects.
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    That night we were at a buddies house watching the game and were planning on playing poker as soon as the game finished. About a minute before "The Brawl" happened, we decided the game was over and that we were going to start playing. As we started to deal the cards my friend asks his wife what the score was. She replied very plainly, "I'm not sure, somethings going on I think theyre fighting or something I dunno." We jumped up out of our chairs and ran into the living room to the replays of Ron grabbing the fan, Jax open hand slapping the other fan, JO slipping as he swung on another, Ron leaping over the scorers bench, etc. It doesn't seem that long ago. Im proud of how far we have come. I feel like Bird knows how close we were and that he's not going to stop until we are back to that level again and hopefully further.
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by Grover View Post
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    Great job again by the Grantland Gang. Love that site!

    I'm glad to see something publicly acknowledging that the Pistons were clearly looking for a fight well before it finally broke out (mentioning all the hard fouls after the game was decided - especially Ben's uncalled flagrant on Ron that probably would have started the brawl if World Peace hadn't been put on "double secret zero tolerance probation" by Stern prior to the game). That seemed to be ignored by all reporting media, but I think is very relevant to the events of the evening.

    Ben Wallace caused it all acting like an idiot, then not leaving after he couldnít goad Ron into a fight (as he was so desperate to do). Other things may have been able to reduce the carnage, but the fact remains, one guy was acting like a wild jackass who would not be tamed and he got off easy in spite of igniting the entire melee.

    I also liked that someone finally pointed out the Pacers short bench. I donít know how many times Iíve heard talking heads ponder why Ron was still out there after the game was decided (ignoring why Ben was still out there) when the answer for the Pacers was obvious.

    As to ESPNís change of how the story got reported, John Saunders did address this on a ĎSports Reportersí sometime later (due to some other unrelated incident of idiot fans behaving badly). I donít remember exactly what he said, but it was along the lines of management telling the on-air talent after the brawl that the paying customers are always right and Saunders was pretty much saying, ďI donít care what you tell me to say, Iím telling you that people who act like idiots arenít right and Iím not changing my story then or nowĒ. He seemed kind of defiant while just pointing out the obvious but he mentioned that he was "supposed" to not blame the fans for the Malice at the Palace which shocked me.

    Its not healthy, but I donít think Iíll ever not be pissed off about this thing and the way the Pacers were targeted for punishment.
    Wow. Just wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow

  25. #193
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Am I the only idiot who thought the brawl was awesome when it happened? Granted I was 18, in my first semester of college, and somewhat drunk when it happened, but I didn't fully understand the implications of it until some days later. That night, I thought they players would be getting 10-15 game suspensions max and it wouldn't cost the Pacers much more than a seed in the playoffs.

  26. #194
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    **First off I appologize for the aimlessness of this post I kind of go all over the place**
    I won't forget where I was when this happened. I was watching it my buddy Chuck. Pacer fans most certainly circled the wagons. This sums up to me how much we circled the wagon. I can't remember what game it was if it was right after the brawl or in the playoffs but I remember the Pacers needed a defensive stop and a time out was called. The ENTIRE crowd chanted De-Fense the whole timeout and throughout the possession. Does that happen now? No. Did it happen often before, I don't know I didn't go to a LOT of Pacer games before that. All I know now is that the crowd doesn't get up unless MG tells them too.
    Like I said that season was the first season I went to a lot of pacer games. That's the season I absolutely fell in love with the Pacers. I had always liked them but I obviously I didn't go to a lot of games before that season. I didn't plan my weeks out around Pacer games as I do now. This was the season that inspired me and my friend Carly to get season tickets. I remember being okay with out losses that year because the team just went out there and busted their butts and that's all we really look for as fans.
    As for the brawl itself I've always blamed Ben for what happened. I thought the guy could dish out a hard foul but couldn't take one. While it really sucks what Ron did I don't blame him. I always looked at it like If someone came into my work after I just got into a heated argument with a co-worker and threw beer in my face, there's a very good chance I would react the same way. I've always had and will always have a soft spot in my heart for Ron, but the intro video on here made me say "What a prick" I remember where I was when he asked to be traded. I was at one of my wrestling shows and Carly called me and told me. My heart dropped.
    SJax I didn't like one bit until the brawl. I respected the fact that he went to help his teammate. SJax was new here, he didn't have to go help Ron but he did. I will always and forever respect him for that.
    Now on to JO. JO gave us his best years here. It's an absolute shame he gets booed like he does when ever he comes back. Absolute shame. I always make sure I over cheer him when he's introduced to try and cancel out one or two booers. I personally don't think JO should have been suspended any games. The guy he hit was on the court. I wrestling we're taught, that if your outside the ring get back in, and as soon as they come through the ropes they're fair game and we defend ourselves. That's how I look at what JO did. His comments on how he's proud of what the team is doing right now almost brought me to tears. I would LOVE to sign JO to come off the bench or to a one day contract to retire a Pacer. Thanks for reading my ramblings.

    I lied The 03-04 season was the first year I went to a lot of games. I remember leaving happy a lot. Then the next year I wasn't too bummed with losses because the team busted their butts.
    Last edited by JonnyB83; 03-03-2012 at 04:06 PM. Reason: I lied
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