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Thread: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace


    Jackson: I actually think [Stern] took it light on us, because he could have easily kicked us out the league. This is my opinion. Taking $3 million was harsh, but I'd rather give that $3 million up and still have my job than keep the $3 million and be kicked out the league.

    O'Neal: I never even told my daughter what happened — she found out at school. One day she came home and figured it out and said, "Dad, are you suspended for fighting?" That was hard for me. It was hard for me to have that conversation with my daughter. It was hard for me to go to the Boys & Girls Club, which I was very close with in Indianapolis, St. Vincent's Hospital, talking to the people at St. Vincent Hospital. It's hard for me as a leader of a community. To have these conversations and see the effect that not just the fight itself had on our team, but the perception that it had on the community. A lot of people don't even know that I won all of my court cases.29 I got reinstated. Every case — civil, criminal, and suspension from the league — I won all of those.
    O'Neal: Nobody knows this — the Pistons security had just told that man to leave the building before that even happened. Nobody knows that that same guy threatened Yao Ming.21 People don't know that. People don't know some of the bad scenarios of the people who were caught up in that situation. But they know everything about the players. That man had been plotting to start fights against players so he could get paid. That's a fact.

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    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    If anyone has paid attention to me over the years, you probly know that I get very upset when Artest comes up in discussion. I've always felt, from the night it happened, that the actions of that night (and other indicators that led up to that) absolutely crippled our team.

    In the immediate aftermath, despite what had happened, Artest STILL had a huge support following, at least on the forums. It was a divided online community. There were so many people who not only supported what he did, but was willing to forget it because he was a "special talent". That baffled me, that a player who's actions (and other incidents) had so crippled our favorite team... was still so supported, and proved to me that people didn't know how to spot a bad sector of an entity even if it stared them in the face --- and that's exactly what Artest was doing to many, many people. This article nails it home for me, further validates my feelings on the subject that Artest was a walking wrecking ball. The Brawl AND the trade request are bonafide proof of that. The Brawl was questionable enough and his blinded teammates still had his back, until he requested that trade and drove that wedge between himself and the guys who "had his back", proving that there's nothing goin on "up there" with that guy. You could sense the betrayal in their comments when they talked about him requesting that trade.

    He was by far the worst acquisition this team ever made... we've been suffering the consequences ever since, even if we didn't deserve it. No one deserves that. Our current team, great as it is, is still suffering the consequences. All the proof you need is to look into the stands and see the empty spots. That wouldn't have occurred pre-Brawl. The reality of it is, this team has to win and win and win just to win back a still snake-bitten fanbase.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 02-29-2012 at 01:57 PM.
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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    I disagree. The worst and most destructive decisions in history were made by people in uniforms or suits. In my opinion, the dress code was not about changing player behavior as much as it was about changing fans' perception of that behavior.
    I stand by my opinion - in many of the cases you obliquely refer to, people's everyday WAS the uniforms and suits, and they wear/wore them all day and not as an exception. There are many studies to show that if you dress differently than usual, you act differently than usual.

    I agree it had to do with public perception as well, but that is why I said a reason, not the reason.
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    A couple of thoughts as a [admitetly biased] Pacers fan


    - Interesting to hear people say something about the announcers being so pro-player. IMO the NBA was far too pro-Detroit, and refused to say anything bad about the arena or [lack of] security
    It depends on when you watched it. If you watched it that night, John Saunders and Stephen A. Smith were for the Pacers all the way. Called the fans thugs and how they should be banned from the arena and ashamed of themselves

    Next day though, Pacers were thugs, out of control, etc. It was amazing how they were able to flip flop 100%. Haven't liked John Saunders (or was it Tirico) since then.


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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Forget what you thought of the way he played basketball, is there anyone here who would be opposed to JO getting the ceremonial one day contract so he could retire a Pacer? The man did a great deal for the community and clearly loves the city.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I stand by my opinion - in many of the cases you obliquely refer to, people's everyday WAS the uniforms and suits, and they wear/wore them all day and not as an exception. There are many studies to show that if you dress differently than usual, you act differently than usual.

    I agree it had to do with public perception as well, but that is why I said a reason, not the reason.
    That's fair. If you dress differently, you are more likely to act differently - I'll buy that. It makes sense, and I can say from my own experience that I've demonstrated it at times in my own life. Differently isn't always better though. That's the important thing. We should never judge a person by their appearance, but instead by their words and actions. I don't care too strongly about the dress code one way or another, but I do have strong feelings about what was implied by what you said. I would never want to separate myself from my everyday emotions - they are what define me.

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    Can see thru wooden doors dal9's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Not to mention he just had a brother of his die a couple of days earlier.
    SJax just about was trying to make it two dead brothers of his lol

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Forget what you thought of the way he played basketball, is there anyone here who would be opposed to JO getting the ceremonial one day contract so he could retire a Pacer? The man did a great deal for the community and clearly loves the city.
    YES!

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Yes, you would be opposed to it?

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Going back and looking at the video. 2 of the refs are just standing there with their hands on their hips. Geez...if they step in and break it up, never happens.


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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    This article has really just ruined my day. Went back and watched the video, now I'm just pissed off.


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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Forget what you thought of the way he played basketball, is there anyone here who would be opposed to JO getting the ceremonial one day contract so he could retire a Pacer? The man did a great deal for the community and clearly loves the city.
    Ill one up that and say we offer him a front office gig (player relations, PR, something like that) or a coaching gig.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersCenter View Post
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    It depends on when you watched it. If you watched it that night, John Saunders and Stephen A. Smith were for the Pacers all the way. Called the fans thugs and how they should be banned from the arena and ashamed of themselves

    Next day though, Pacers were thugs, out of control, etc. It was amazing how they were able to flip flop 100%. Haven't liked John Saunders (or was it Tirico) since then.
    The story was Stern personally put pressure on ESPN over that. Detroit got off RIDICULOUSLY easy, they should have had to play 3 or 4 of their home games in an empty Palace.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    It's amazing, all this time later they now are playing in an empty arena...same for us though :-(


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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    This didn't make me angrier at Artest. It made me pity him. All of the stories make him come off as someone with a mental illness or personality disorder of some sort, like when he was asking if he would get in trouble and when they said how detached he looked right after the brawl. I honestly don't think he knew what he was doing at the time. He definitely had some problems.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    The story was Stern personally put pressure on ESPN over that. Detroit got off RIDICULOUSLY easy, they should have had to play 3 or 4 of their home games in an empty Palace.
    I always doubted that rumor, but I wouldnt be shocked if it was true

    This story makes me thinking about what could have been......and Uncle Reggie

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Yes, you would be opposed to it?
    Yes, let's do it.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersCenter View Post
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    Going back and looking at the video. 2 of the refs are just standing there with their hands on their hips. Geez...if they step in and break it up, never happens.
    And to think that the ref who actually tries to break it up is the littlest one on the floor and cannot even be seen in all of this havoc.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    I don't think I have ever read Reggie Miller's comments on the brawl. Which is probably for the best, as I am sure he still harbors a grudge at what happened. I just kind of wish I knew his reflections on the incident.

    Also the part about Reggie Miller almost getting pepper sprayed and saying "Don't this is a x-hundred dollar suit, was hilarious"!

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    This didn't make me angrier at Artest. It made me pity him. All of the stories make him come off as someone with a mental illness or personality disorder of some sort, like when he was asking if he would get in trouble and when they said how detached he looked right after the brawl. I honestly don't think he knew what he was doing at the time. He definitely had some problems.
    He's like the Gollum of the NBA.
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    Ill one up that and say we offer him a front office gig (player relations, PR, something like that) or a coaching gig.
    Put my vote down as no. There was a little more to JO and some of his behind the scenes activity to get my blessing for an office job. Retire as a Pacer then ok, any more than that no.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Can see thru wooden doors dal9's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    I think I speak for almost everyone when I say "good article."

    My comments on some parts:
    Tom Wilson (CEO of the Detroit Pistons and Palace Sports and Entertainment): When he laid on the scorer's table, it took the natural barriers away. There's nothing between you and the crowd. Normally, there's the player's bench. Or you'd have to climb over chairs or climb over the scoring table — it requires that instant that keeps you from doing something crazy or gives people a chance to grab you.

    Montieth: In a way, he provoked it passively by lying down on that table. He picked up a set of radio headphones like he was going to talk to people back home. He was clowning around a bit too much. In his mind, he was saying, "Look, I'm not doing anything here. I'm trying to be good." It didn't work out that way.
    Bad examples of blaming the victim (for the initial attack on Artest).

    Boyle: Instinctively or reflexively, I did step up and Ronnie trampled right over me. I fractured five vertebrae. The thing I laugh about now is my wife says to me, "If you could have stopped Ronnie from going into the stands, none of this would have happened." I say, "Well, Jesus, if I could have stopped Ron from going into the stands, I would be playing in the NFL." My partner, Slick Leonard, was smarter than me — he moved out of the line of fire.


    Chris McCosky (Pistons beat writer, Detroit News): I remember trying to stop Jamaal Tinsley from going into the stands, and he went through me like I was butter. It was a pretty failed attempt on my part.
    If you are going to get trampled by someone, it gives you more "cred" if it is Artest compared to Tinsley. I didn't realize Boyle was injured so badly--did he have to miss time?


    Auburn Hills Police Chief Doreen E. Olko: We have zillions of security plans for the Palace, for all kinds of things. But none included a player going up in the stands. That just is not something anybody foresaw.
    "Nobody could have forseen" is a common defense to incompetence. It's not as if something like this is un-forseeable if you have a "zillion" security plans.


    Pollard: Some of the fans, they get down on the court and are saying, "I'm going to go punch this guy. I'm going to go punch this guy." Then they get close and they're like, "Wow. I can't reach his face."1
    lol

    O'Neal: Nobody knows this — the Pistons security had just told that man to leave the building before that even happened. Nobody knows that that same guy threatened Yao Ming.21 People don't know that. People don't know some of the bad scenarios of the people who were caught up in that situation. But they know everything about the players. That man had been plotting to start fights against players so he could get paid. That's a fact.
    Yao going into the stands is something I could have told my grandchildren about 50 years from now...


    Angel: The only time I felt I was about to get hurt was when a policeman popped his pepper spray container and started shaking it up. Reggie Miller was pleading with him, "Please don't. My suit costs x-hundred dollars."
    Reggie: worried about the big picture.

    Bryant Jackson (fan who threw a chair at the exiting Pacers): I, Bryant Jackson, have six kids. I try to do what's right … I got caught up in something I wish I hadn't got caught up in.24
    Do you want a sticker?


    O'Neal: They come in [to Indiana's locker room] and try to arrest us, the players. And all the stuff the people are out there doing, I didn't see anyone being handcuffed and taken out of there. That was a whole other conversation and argument and craziness.

    Mike Brown: This fellow says, "You guys got to stay in here. The police are going to arrest two players and a coach." They were talking about me because the guy said I was punching him from behind in the stands. I was going from almost getting my behind kicked by 20,000 people to getting arrested. It's like, "Wow. This is not happening."

    Gray: They were trying to arrest Artest. Kevin O'Neill really did an unbelievable job that night. He dealt with the police and they rushed [Artest] out on the bus.
    Incredible that the police are trying to make arrests in the locker room. Credit to Kevin O'Neal, who is having a tough year at USC--hope he does not get fired.


    EDIT: last quote

    Jackson: The person who I have more respect for since then is Ben. We make it a point to shake hands and speak before games now. I respect Ben. Ben was not wrong at all for what he did. Ron did something that only a moron would do. Something real selfish. Ben just protected himself, and for Ben's part, he had a lot going on at the time. That was the wrong person to foul, let alone the biggest dude on the court.
    Surprising quote from SJax about Artest, but it is understandable that he was hurt by the trade request, after he (Jax) sacrificed so much for him (Artest)
    Last edited by dal9; 02-29-2012 at 02:54 PM.

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  35. #73
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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
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    I don't think I have ever read Reggie Miller's comments on the brawl. Which is probably for the best, as I am sure he still harbors a grudge at what happened. I just kind of wish I knew his reflections on the incident.

    Also the part about Reggie Miller almost getting pepper sprayed and saying "Don't this is a x-hundred dollar suit, was hilarious"!
    I think it's why he retired when he did; he wasn't on his last legs. He could have gone at least one more year.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    I am torn on the first quote. I agree with both about Artest making an inredibly stupid decision, but the bottle line is the fans still did what they did, and were in the wrong.

    I beleive the article said Mark did not miss any time. I remember him coming ot PD the next year, that is when he first started posting.

    I also would love to hear what Reggie has to say, but I bet we have a better chance of learning his feelings from Mr. Boyle or RobfromPacers, or someone who is closer to the players, and I doubt we will ever hear from Reggie or his PR people.

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    Default Re: An Oral History of the Malice in the Palace

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    I'll disregard the first part but the bolded part hits the nail on the head.
    Agree, but I would change fans to fans/sponsors

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