Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 102

Thread: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

  1. #51
    Member ilive4sports's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    6,870

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Hill isn't a point guard. Before he was injured, we were all discussing whether AJ needed to be a part of the bench unit because Hill wasn't a point guard. I know people don't think DC's a point guard, but he clearly ran an offense significantly better, IMO. And it's not like our offense was good to start out with.

    Regardless, it would be a mistake to take either of them out of the starting lineup. If you need to give Hill more minutes, because either one is playing poorly, that's fine. But don't screw up chemistry.
    I agree with Sookie. Right before the losing streak, DC was running this offense very well. Being a point guard is more than just assists. Look at last night, a couple of times DC made a nice pass to an open West, which got Roy open and West threw it down to Roy for the easy basket. Also, DC doesn't really turn the ball over.

    Everyone played terrible during the losing streak, so its hard for me to just blame it on DC.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ilive4sports For This Useful Post:


  3. #52
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Furthermore, to those of you dissatisfied with Hill at the point on offense, have you considered that once he's consistently not only at the 1, but doing so with our 4 other best players, that he might improve at finding people and making good decisions on a basic level? And I don't mean that in a "he's going to improve his game over what it already is" sort of way, I mean that in a "he was bouncing back and forth between 1 and 2 and playing minutes with guys like Lance, Jones, Tyler, and Lou, and those things probably/possibly made him look worse than he really is at some of these basic PG things".

    No one expects him to be Steve Nash, but again I think after a handful of games you won't notice a single thing offensively that you miss DC bringing to the table over George. I really do.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Hicks For This Useful Post:


  5. #53

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Also, if Hill replaces anyone in the starting lineup, it'll be PG.

    Regardless of what people here think of DC, Vogel clearly has a pretty high opinion of him. Shown by the amount of playing time DC gets, and has always gotten even when Hill was healthy.

    I don't think he'll replace any of them. I think this was just Vogel saying "Hill is like a sixth starter" which he is. But you aren't going to bench your starting PG on an 18-12 team.

  6. #54
    Gotta Play Big BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    15,424

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    If offense were the only part of the game, I'd agree that DC should start and Paul come off the bench.

    Of course, that other 50% is the part that has me going the other way...

  7. #55
    crazy shinaniganz BringJackBack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    7,351

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    I'd prefer Paul on offense and defense over DC though...

  8. #56
    Chairman of the Boards 90'sNBARocked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Chicago, but Brooklyn/Naptown Raised!!
    Posts
    7,614

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    I dont know how people can say G Hill is not a PG. He was the primary, if not only, back up to Tony Parker in San Antonio. Given TP's prior injury history that the Spurs were well awaree of , Popovich must have trusted the PG posiiton to G Hill , if TP was injured or out for an exteneded period of time. G Hill also backed up TP at the point when he was healthy. The only reason I believe the Spurs traded Hill (considering he was one of Pops all time favorites) is because Hill was up for an extension and the Spurs couldnt find a solid deal for Tony Parker. So if Pop see's G Hill as a PG, im sure he is good enough to play the point. Although it can be argued if he plays both positionms well, but not one better than the other

    The most immediate and impactful benefit of swapping Hill/DC in the starting line up would be defense. Although the merits of Hill/DC can be debated, I think most would agree George Hill is by far the better defender
    Sittin on top of the world!

  9. #57
    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Johnson's Bay, Lake Wawasee
    Age
    28
    Posts
    5,312

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    I struggle to find any aspect of Collison's game, outside of height, that makes me think he is any more of point guard than George Hill. If we're going to start a combo guard at point, as we have all season, we may as well start the better one. That is George Hill.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

    -Lance Stephenson

  10. #58
    Droppin' knowledge, yo. Mackey_Rose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Dragon's Lair
    Posts
    4,106

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Not that he's been great, but if Vogel takes Paul George out of the starting line-up, or reduces his minutes instead of DC, Frank and I are going to have some issues.

  11. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Mackey_Rose For This Useful Post:


  12. #59

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If offense were the only part of the game, I'd agree that DC should start and Paul come off the bench.

    Of course, that other 50% is the part that has me going the other way...
    We all know DC is terrible on defense. But Hill isn't a point guard. (I don't understand the Pacer's insistence on trying to force a player who isn't a point guard to become a point guard..but it rarely works.) And as much as everyone likes the idea of the defense the offense will be worse, and we can't afford that. (And what happens when the Pacers face a good defensive PG?) Particularly when, in a majority of cases, it's pretty easy to make up for DC's defense - because most teams don't have a scoring 1 and 2, so DC usually only has to stick with a shooter.

    PG has seen an increase in minutes since Hill's been out, not DC. (DC's minutes were arguably higher with Hill playing). And PG has struggled more than DC has of late. (Although, seems to have gotten out of that funk) The board just prefers PG, and the NJ game is fresh on our minds. (not that I would sit down Paul George. Nor do I think Vogel will. I just think, if one of them sits, it would be Paul George.)

    Anyway, I think it's all moot, unless the Pacer's start struggling again. Then Vogel will have a decision to make. I don't think either of them come out of the starting lineup. But unless it's Lance that goes to the bench instead of AJ, I think it's very likely that PG's going to be getting less minutes (aka, back to where he was pre-Hill injury) instead of DC losing them. (Unless a bad matchup happens.)
    Last edited by Sookie; 02-20-2012 at 04:24 PM.

  13. #60
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Also, if Hill replaces anyone in the starting lineup, it'll be PG.
    I strongly disagree. Defense matters, and he usually brings that even when his offense is lacking, and he and Hill together is a tremendous defensive backcourt to start with.

  14. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Hicks For This Useful Post:


  15. #61
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    31,047

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Not that he's been great, but if Vogel takes Paul George out of the starting line-up, or reduces his minutes instead of DC, Frank and I are going to have some issues.
    If he benches him, I might have a mini stroke.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  16. #62
    Droppin' knowledge, yo. Mackey_Rose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    The Dragon's Lair
    Posts
    4,106

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If he benches him, I might have a mini stroke.
    Mini? I'd be full-on Tedy Bruschi.

  17. #63
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    31,047

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Dang, that was cold blooded.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  18. #64
    Gotta Play Big BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    15,424

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    We all know DC is terrible on defense. But Hill isn't a point guard. (I don't understand the Pacer's insistence on trying to force a player who isn't a point guard to become a point guard..but it rarely works.)
    Got some news. DC isn't any better at the point and he might be less of a floor general. Great mid range and open floor player on offense. Decent from three. But point guard? Nah.

    Speaking of points, the only point I'll make is that Hill and DC are about the same player on offense. It's on defense where Hill pulls ahead...

  19. #65

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Furthermore, to those of you dissatisfied with Hill at the point on offense, have you considered that once he's consistently not only at the 1, but doing so with our 4 other best players, that he might improve at finding people and making good decisions on a basic level? And I don't mean that in a "he's going to improve his game over what it already is" sort of way, I mean that in a "he was bouncing back and forth between 1 and 2 and playing minutes with guys like Lance, Jones, Tyler, and Lou, and those things probably/possibly made him look worse than he really is at some of these basic PG things".

    No one expects him to be Steve Nash, but again I think after a handful of games you won't notice a single thing offensively that you miss DC bringing to the table over George. I really do.
    I think he can improve with more consistent time at the 1, but it's limited. I still prefer him over Collison in late game pick and rolls, but that's because he can shoot and finish well in clutch. He really, really struggles to see the open man (mostly West) in those situations, decides to pass when it's too late (instincts/feel), and doesn't execute the pass well when he makes it. Those are three key things that make a good point guard. I think you're born with #1 and it's hard to expect improvement with #'s 2 and 3 when you've played your entire life with the ball in your hand and haven't yet figured it out.

    I thought Collison showed considerable point guard improvement at the beginning of the season, which was almost entirely in setting the tempo and knowing when not to shoot. These are the areas Hill can improve the most, but Collison is better overall in the other areas (maybe tied with #s 1 and 2, but definitely better with 3).

    I think Hill can be serviceable at the point and a huge upgrade on defense, but we really need a true point guard with this roster full of offensive players that can't create off the dribble. That should be priorities 1-5 in roster upgrades.
    Last edited by imawhat; 02-20-2012 at 06:53 PM.

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to imawhat For This Useful Post:


  21. #66

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    i hope hill starts... he deserves it.... would cause a lot of mismatches in favor of us for once...and that would be one hell of a defensive and offensive starting 5

  22. #67

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Starting Hill weakens us. Right now Hill can come into the game at either SG or PG as needs dictate. If Paul George gets in foul trouble then Hill comes in at SG. If Collison is having trouble defending the point then Hill comes in at PG.

    I prefer my combo guard coming in off the bench.

  23. #68

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Got some news. DC isn't any better at the point and he might be less of a floor general. Great mid range and open floor player on offense. Decent from three. But point guard? Nah.

    Speaking of points, the only point I'll make is that Hill and DC are about the same player on offense. It's on defense where Hill pulls ahead...
    Hill is, without question, the better player. Defensively, he's miles ahead of DC. He's also just as capable of a scorer, bigger and stronger etc.

    But that doesn't matter too much. Granger is a better player than Tyler, that doesn't mean I want to see Granger as a PF.

    DC runs an offense, and runs it pretty well. GH doesn't. I don't know how people have managed to forget that before he was hurt, we were all discussing the possible need to put AJ in the bench unit, because Lance and Hill weren't point guards. Now we want to play without a point guard in the starting unit?

    and my point was about what Vogel was more likely to do. Most likely, his quote was just a compliment to George Hill. But if he was truly thinking about it...PG has been replaced by George Hill in crunch time twice, DC hasn't. PG tends to lose to most minutes to Hill throughout the majority of the game. And PG's been struggling more than DC has.

    So the idea that if Hill were to enter the starting lineup, it would definitely be for DC and not PG is silly to me. (Also, I know not everyone likes the stat, but the best +/- lineup is DC, PG, Granger, Hibbert, West. The second best is DC, GH, Granger, Hibbert, West. You have to go to the 9th to get a lineup where Hill is the point guard. And that lineup has only played together for three minutes..) Vogel plays DC a lot of minutes. He hesitates to pull him. He clearly respects him more than a lot of people here. I doubt he loses his spot.

    And that's not even thinking about the logistic of..who is the backup shooting guard? Because DC can't play that position. Are we going to give Lance more minutes? Dahntay? Are we going to play AJ at the 2? Are we going to make Hill play 40 minutes?

  24. #69
    All Hail CJ Watson! Nuntius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Somewhere in Southern Europe
    Posts
    19,193

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    At this point, I want to point something out. A starting line-up is not always made up of a team's 5 best players. There's a reason that Thabo Sefolosha and Daequan Cook start over James Harden.
    Last edited by Nuntius; 02-21-2012 at 09:14 AM. Reason: wrote "made" instead of "line-up"

  25. #70

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    DC runs an offense, and runs it pretty well. GH doesn't. I don't know how people have managed to forget that before he was hurt, we were all discussing the possible need to put AJ in the bench unit, because Lance and Hill weren't point guards. Now we want to play without a point guard in the starting unit?
    None of the "point guards" on our team run the offense well. Not Darren, Hill, Lance nor AJ. There's a reason our offense looks best in the hands of Hibbert and West.

  26. The Following User Says Thank You to imawhat For This Useful Post:


  27. #71
    Member spazzxb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    fort wayne In
    Age
    35
    Posts
    2,824

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Lineup change. Collison was benched for his defense two games ago, Hill is a good defender, our bench needs more scoring, Vogel's new comments, etc. It feels like all signs are pointing in the direction of a lineup change.
    That was against DWill and Morrow. The time before when we played New Jersey Collison and GH were both abused , just like DC was in the most recent game. For that reason I don't think the New Jersey game is a a good evaluation tool .If we only use New Jersey as a data point then both LS and AJ outplayed either of these guys. New Jersey, however, is an anomaly. Dwill, as I said before the game, is Dc's Kryptonite. HE is the exact worst Pg in this league for Collison to have to defend.

    Personally I like the idea of giving GH a chance to start at point. However I really dilike the idea of GH and DC playing together regularly. The only time I don't mind them on the court together is when the opponents back court is undersized. If the opponent has a 2g, larger than 6'4, that can shoot, we are just asking for trouble playing DC and GH together.

    I am a huge advocate of staggering the time PG and DG spend on the bench, however I don't see anyone challenging PG for his spot in the starting lineup.

  28. #72
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Age
    36
    Posts
    44,417

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    What was wrong with Sarunas? I wasn't watching any NBA basketball back then so I don't know what went wrong. Was his bad defense the cause of him not being what we were expecting?
    Poor defender, didn't seem to get along with his teammates (probably because he was always barking at them for failing to cover his mistakes), and his shot went south when he got here.

  29. The Following User Says Thank You to Shade For This Useful Post:


  30. #73
    Member spazzxb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    fort wayne In
    Age
    35
    Posts
    2,824

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Poor defender, didn't seem to get along with his teammates (probably because he was always barking at them for failing to cover his mistakes), and his shot went south when he got here.
    He also had Trouble bringing the ball up the court.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus

  31. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to spazzxb For This Useful Post:


  32. #74
    On the Vogel Wagon gummy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Indy
    Posts
    3,926
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    He also had Trouble bringing the ball up the court.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
    Yeah. That's putting it mildly. Folded like a lawn chair once a bit of pressure was applied. We had to adjust by having someone else bring the ball up the floor to dump off to Cabbages once he crossed the half court line.
    "Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

    "Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire

    "Everyone's values are defined by what they will tolerate when it is done to others." - William Greider

  33. The Following User Says Thank You to gummy For This Useful Post:


  34. #75
    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    7,450

    Default Re: A change in the lineup once Hill returns?

    Sarunas is probably the reason well never see Stanko. Bird got burnt by the Euro Superstar.

    But to be fair to Sarunas, he was in a Rick Carlye system that was basically one on one ball back then. Not nearly the offensive master piece they run in Dallas.

    If Sarunas was around for the JOB ere, he probably would have looked pretty good.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 02-21-2012 at 12:04 AM.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

Similar Threads

  1. Mike Wells George Hill article
    By pacer4ever in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 60
    Last Post: 06-25-2011, 01:50 AM
  2. Whether starter or reserve, Hill fills many needs
    By Jose Slaughter in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-24-2011, 11:03 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-15-2011, 08:10 PM
  4. Dwyane Wade returns to Heat lineup against New Jersey [ESPN]
    By RoboHicks in forum NBA Headlines (RSS Feeds)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-20-2009, 07:10 PM
  5. The.Bunny@IndyStar.com > Pacers prepare for lineup change
    By ChicagoJ in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 01-11-2005, 03:23 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •