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Thread: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    This discussion always gets confused over D.C. as a player and as a point guard.

    As a player, he would be more difficult to replace and upgrade. He is a good player. As a point guard, not so much.

    It's like we have a toolkit with a wrench, screw driver, a nail, and two saws. We don't need the second saw, we need a hammer.

    With cap space and D.C. we can upgrade our point guard position. It gets even easier if we include picks.
    If that's all we have in our toolkit we better find some nails too... 1 nail won't build much!

    Any chance we could trade the screwdriver, nail, and 1 saw for a Makita and a box of a screws?
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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    DG is infinitely more tradeable than JO... IMHO.... Because of contract versus production, durability, etc.... but what we would want back is likely more than anyone is going to offer so it will be easy for Bird to stay loyal.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    I think I read an article recently about Danny laughing over how many times he's been traded. I seriously doubt we move him right now given the fact we have not shown the ability to play well without him. Also, he is the only player on the team that has shown he can get it done in the playoffs.

    Don't get me wrong, I understand the value of trading him for a young asset before his value is nil. People who don't get that, don't understand how the Indiana Pacers will ever build a real contender. But it's a risk. It could very well be the time to trade him, but it's awfully comfortable hanging on to him and at least making the playoffs. At least we are seeing decent basketball.

    At the same time, for people who don't want to trade him...you can pretty much forget about this iteration of the Pacers ever really contending. We don't have enough talent and it's going to be focused on the wing as Paul matures and Danny stays with the team. Also, don't expect good draft picks that make an impact around #20. Sure, it's possible but you'll be competing with #1-#19 and you will be losing forever. Forever.

    Point is, eventually you have to take some significant risks and build a team that matures and peaks at the same time in Indiana....because nobody is going to be "bringing their talents" to central Indiana...

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Granger has some trade value, but the highest trade value on our team belongs to Paul George or Roy Hibbert.
    And if we're gonna trade anyone to get a star, like, I Deron or something, I'd much rather ship George than Granger. would make more sense too.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I think I read an article recently about Danny laughing over how many times he's been traded. I seriously doubt we move him right now given the fact we have not shown the ability to play well without him. Also, he is the only player on the team that has shown he can get it done in the playoffs.

    Don't get me wrong, I understand the value of trading him for a young asset before his value is nil. People who don't get that, don't understand how the Indiana Pacers will ever build a real contender. But it's a risk. It could very well be the time to trade him, but it's awfully comfortable hanging on to him and at least making the playoffs. At least we are seeing decent basketball.

    At the same time, for people who don't want to trade him...you can pretty much forget about this iteration of the Pacers ever really contending. We don't have enough talent and it's going to be focused on the wing as Paul matures and Danny stays with the team. Also, don't expect good draft picks that make an impact around #20. Sure, it's possible but you'll be competing with #1-#19 and you will be losing forever. Forever.

    Point is, eventually you have to take some significant risks and build a team that matures and peaks at the same time in Indiana....because nobody is going to be "bringing their talents" to central Indiana...

    Bird isn't a risk taker... never has been never will be. The closest Bird took to taking a risk was trading last years pick for Hill. He was looking for short term need over long term need. I understand his thinking just didn't agree with it.

    I've said this b4, it will be almost impossible for the Pacers to trade for a Rondo or DWill. After watching the Pacers/Nets game, I'd really like the Pacers to get DWill, but the reality is it's just a pipe dream. The Pacers have 3 choices 1) stay the status quo & hope DC develops, 2) trade for a slight upgrade over DC, 3) draft the PG of the future. I'm more Pacers/inclined to try the latter.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    Been thinking about this. Danny is playing really good right now. His stock is fairly high and will get higher if he keeps it up. But a few thoughts...

    1) Watching Danny and Paul play together, it seems like Danny is in Pauls way. I feel like George should be the man and he can't, becausE he defers to Danny. So his play looks clunky at times. It's kind of like Paul doesn't know when to assert himself, because Danny is here. Also, I think Paul is playing out of position. I think he's a 3. Not a 2. I don't think Paul can fully blossom until Danny is out of the way.

    2) I like Darren Collison, but there are PG's available that could really push Indiana to a legit contender status. Darren just isn't there yet. He's solid though and I think he could get there. Which is why I think you keep DC.

    A George Hill, Granger and 2012 first rounder could net you something really nice. Boston might take that for Rondo and another contact. Maybe you get Nash and Dudley or Lopez or Gortat. I dunno, my point is, trading Danny Granger while his stock is high, makes so much sense right now and could not only make you a legit contender for the title depending on what you get back, but also could pave the way for #24 to become a top SF in the league.

    I love Danny. His defense, in my eyes, has been amazing . And his shooting is coming back. But it just makes sense to trade him. Sometimes the difference between a title contender and a title pretender is whether or not your GM has the guts to see past loyalty and make a cutthroat move at the deadline. This is the move. Danny is the peice.


    Bingo.........

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Apparently no one thinks we have a chance in free agency this summer. We have the money to bring in 2 impact players in the 8-10 mil range, or 1 max player like Williams, and still be able to keep Hibbert and most likely PG in the long run due to the timing of our other contracts expiring. It's really our last chance to make a big splash and I expect Bird to do so. We have a talented young team and I think other players will see what West did last summer which is that it's a very good situation to walk into while still getting paid.
    If Williams does want to leave NJ, I'd think we'd be on his short list. Who else has the cap space and talent we do next year?
    If we strike out on Williams we simply add talent and assets for a trade but it doesn't have to be Granger that's traded. If we add a big man like Kaman then we could move West, who with only 1 more year on his contract may have greater trade value to some teams. Nash would be a short term fix but a great consolation prize that might get us by while we try to draft the pg of the future. I'd like to see what Bird can do in free agency and not move any core players at the deadline this year. If we can pick up Kaman or Nash for almost nothing or pick one of them up off waivers I'd be all over that.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    This puzzles me....I can understand some of the arguments in this thread, but the biggest one that confuses me is the Danny holding Paul back, and therefor, Danny should be ousted....

    This in theory, makes sense, but in reality, look at the stats Paul put up when Danny was injured...They were minimal. To truly test this theory would be to simply make Paul Danny's backup for a couple games. Paul would get more rest, Danny would get more rest, if you need them both in due to the circumstances, you still have them both. Let Hill get healthy, start him a couple games at the 2, and Danny at the 3...Rotate George in for Danny, and you can see what the team would look like without Danny.

    IMO, Danny is not done, and unless you are getting a lopsided deal in the Pacers favor, this is a no go....

    I also read somewhere that Bird told Danny that he was the core of the team and we were building around him....History tells us that Bird is good to his word, and if he said Danny is our organizations' foundation.....He will be until he's done....

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    If we can pick up Kaman or Nash for almost nothing or pick one of them up off waivers I'd be all over that.
    What in the.....

    I actually think the Pacers have a good chance at getting DWill. There is only one big team who has any room for him and that is Dallas. Miami can't afford him, NY can't afford him, Boston could but they have Rondo, Lakers are can't afford him. Does he even give NJ the chance to sign Howard? NJ is a team with a losing culture I would not be surprised to see him bolt.

    A team like the Pacers would be a no brainer for him in terms of fit.


    If Danny is traded it will be in the last year of his deal.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Going by recent Pacer history, if we ever do trade him, it will only be after he has declined and his value in the trade market has dipped.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    I have read articles were Larry talks about loyalty a lot, I think his loyalty is a blessing and a curse at the same time, teams that win championships usually put those things to the side, Larry to me is too loyal and proud for the Pacers own good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    If DWill wants to contend for a ring, we have money this summer.

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    But, but, but, what about Eric Gordon?

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I have read articles were Larry talks about loyalty a lot, I think his loyalty is a blessing and a curse at the same time, teams that win championships usually put those things to the side, Larry to me is too loyal and proud for the Pacers own good.
    Sometimes loyalty works out for the best, though, like with Paul Pierce circa 2004-2007.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    I'm keeping DG, PG, and GH. I like Roy but his lack of athleticism, strength, and speed can be depressing. DC is just not a PG but a really short SG. I don't understand what has happened to Tyler.

    We are getting beat by teams wit lesser players and more athleticism.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie Gill View Post
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    But, but, but, what about Eric Gordon?
    Does Eric Gordon ever play? The NBA won't let him leave NO..


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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by ejwallace View Post
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    This puzzles me....I can understand some of the arguments in this thread, but the biggest one that confuses me is the Danny holding Paul back, and therefor, Danny should be ousted....

    This in theory, makes sense, but in reality, look at the stats Paul put up when Danny was injured...They were minimal. To truly test this theory would be to simply make Paul Danny's backup for a couple games. Paul would get more rest, Danny would get more rest, if you need them both in due to the circumstances, you still have them both. Let Hill get healthy, start him a couple games at the 2, and Danny at the 3...Rotate George in for Danny, and you can see what the team would look like without Danny.

    IMO, Danny is not done, and unless you are getting a lopsided deal in the Pacers favor, this is a no go....

    I also read somewhere that Bird told Danny that he was the core of the team and we were building around him....History tells us that Bird is good to his word, and if he said Danny is our organizations' foundation.....He will be until he's done....
    You miss the point. You trade a player like Granger when his value is high before he declines. He is the Pacers best player but he is not a game changer. If you can get something really good and younger for Granger, you do it.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Foul on Smits View Post
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    1) Watching Danny and Paul play together, it seems like Danny is in Pauls way. I feel like George should be the man and he can't, becausE he defers to Danny. So his play looks clunky at times. It's kind of like Paul doesn't know when to assert himself, because Danny is here. Also, I think Paul is playing out of position. I think he's a 3. Not a 2. I don't think Paul can fully blossom until Danny is out of the way.
    Replace Danny/Paul with Jordan/Pippen and re-evaluate this "problem".

    Paul HAD BEEN the designated "Pippen", the guy that does the first rotation with the bench as it is fed in, then later on he comes out and Danny comes back. So Paul had been getting plenty of "I'm the man" time. He was really struggling so Vogel switched that and instead kept Danny out with the bench instead to improve scoring, which has worked.

    I understand the overall point of your post, the idea that Danny is playing well right now, you like Danny, but you see a chance to re-org the structure. But I just disagree that this is a problem and I certainly wouldn't view this as "trading while he's hot". Danny has returned this year, he's not "Dunleavy in his career year". I think we can easily expect Danny to continue at this level for 5-6 more years.

    There is room for both even now. Paul is just young and confused about his role. All the guys are feeling their way still. But as they figure out who does what well, and when it's the right time to make a play or move, they are going to be pretty bad ***. It's the fact that when you try to ISO for a 2 man game and you end up stuck with either Danny or Paul as one of the defenders in most situations that makes the Pacers so strong on defense. Switches are harder to pull of and nearly everything on the wing is getting defended well (past the initial PnR).



    Personally I THINK (not just desire) that Danny ends up a lifer Pacer. He's shown the passion and will and I think that keeps his value higher within the org than without.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Sometimes loyalty works out for the best, though, like with Paul Pierce circa 2004-2007.
    Yes but I think we can all agree that Pierce is a better player than Danny making hard for him to be replace, the guy is a hall of famer, Danny is a good player but is easier to replace him, there are a lot of players like him in the NBA(Wallace,Deng,Gay,JJ,etc).

    You are right the Celtics were Loyal to Pierce but they were not Loyal to their young core, they traded their whole team for veterans to compete for a championship and I could never see Larry doing that, I hope I'm wrong though.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Danny has returned this year, he's not "Dunleavy in his career year". I think we can easily expect Danny to continue at this level for 5-6 more years.
    Are you sure about that? Danny has regressed every year in almost every category, if he keeps regressing at the rate he has he is going to be shooting a low percentage while averaging way less ppg that he is getting now or in 5 or 6 years.

    I would like to know why you are saying that "Danny has returned"
    Last edited by vnzla81; 02-19-2012 at 01:33 PM.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    you can pretty much forget about this iteration of the Pacers ever really contending.
    I just can't get how any Pacers fan ever thinks this. I'm actually really sick of hearing this general "we need a mega-star" or "we must have a top 5 pick/tank" angles from a team that already proved that is wrong.

    Everyone acts like they knew about Reggie, Smits, playoff success, etc when the team lost 3-1 to the Knicks the year before Brown. At that time the team's best player was DETLEF, not Reggie. Det was back to back 6th man and the CURRENT all-star. It had been a few years since Reggie's ONLY AS appearance (at the time).

    So if you were living in that era with the views on Danny/talent we show now you would have said the following:

    1) Detlef is your best player, you build around him. And if you trade him it must be for another regular AS player (McKey was NOT that, so fail 1)

    2) Reggie is a nice SG but he's never going to be Jordan, he can't get his own shot, he's not a great defender and the team will never get to the Finals if he's your best player. I like him but he's just not good enough. (Fail 2 because they didn't upgrade him)

    3) Smits isn't the answer at C. He's not athletic enough and can defend the paint. He's a soft, touch scorer, not a power player and not a defensive force. (fail 3, no upgrade here either)


    By the way, there is also no way you can expect to get a borderline AS PF from the 2nd round, maybe even sent to Europe to improve his skills. Antonio Davis does not exist and no one thought he could exist.


    Also there is no way you could acquire Mark Jackson at that point. He's not with the team and all you are going to have is guys like Fleming, Workman or Michael Williams who are not enough to lead a team. They are good bench types but not elite team starters.


    And then the team swapped coaches, did trade down in total talent level for Larry Brown's desire*, had 2nd rounder Antonio return from Europe, and with Workman at point they went to the ECF game 7. And then they did it again the next year. And 3 years, 4 years, and 5 years later. 5 ECF in 7 years is ELITE, and they did this from years of .500 with no high picks, no major FA, and not even a regular AS.

    The Pacers have won using the team concept, and the Pistons reproved it a few years ago as well. I'd say even Memphis has proven it in recent years.




    In short, this team has nearly all the talent it needs right now. Maybe you need one more guy on the bench, maybe you need Tyler to improve a little (or upgrade him), maybe you could slightly upgrade DC or Roy, but you probably don't need to do all of those things.


    *As a reminder, Det was 19.6, 9.5, 6.0 the prior year, so #2 ppg, #1 rpg, #2 apg. Traded. I understand the defensive thing and I liked McKey, but people forget that Det was a killer offensive all-around threat and went on to be part of a multi-threat elite Seattle team (the Pacers justification was too many options, needed a defensive specialist...that's Brown-speak for justifying his random roster changes, like trading Jax then benching Rose, then asking for Jax back)
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 02-19-2012 at 01:30 PM.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    OK Naptown Seth I get all what you are saying but you know that the Pacers never won a championship with that team and only made it to the finals one time right? is that the goal?

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Detlef was never the Pacers best player. He was a great 6th man, but without Reggie Miller that team was paralyzed.

    Also, looking at the team's best players...Smits was a #2 pick. Miller #11. You will not see another pick at that level unless we bring Jim O'Brien back in.

    ...and this team certainly does not have the talent it needs to contend. There is still no PG on this team and we are not that strong in the front court.

    Bottom line is, this team will need to win as a team, not a few super stars. So I think I agree on that point with you. But the problem I see is that Granger and George are 7 years apart in age. In contrast, James and Bosh are both 27 and DWade is 30. Having guys grow up and peak at the same time is quite important if you really want that ring...

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    I might add that another cog in that team was Dale Davis...picked at #13. Let's just say that he started and Antonio backed him up for a reason.

    See, the extreme talent on that team WAS actually picked in the draft by the Pacers. Those were the horses this team rode on in the 90's....

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    OK Naptown Seth I get all what you are saying but you know that the Pacers never won a championship with that team and only made it to the finals one time right? is that the goal?
    I think the point is it was a championship-caliber team, even if it never won a title. The '98 team in particular could have easily been a championship team in many other seasons.

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    Default Re: I dont think Danny Granger will be a Pacer at the deadline

    So, if we trade Danny PG is going to start dribbling a lot better, finishing in traffic, and he'll also stop bowling over someone in the paint for a charge 1-2 times per game?

    Great, sign me up!

    PG is not ready, folks. His sometimes laid back/not aggressive enough demeanor is a thing that scouts talked about with him going into the draft. There have always been questions about whether or not PG has that "killer instinct." It's not new, nor is it caused by Danny. If we trade Danny and try to thrust PG into a new position with the mantle of "that dude," this season I think we will be a bottom dwelling team again. We could miss the playoffs. PG has great talent but is still pretty inconsistent. We're a year or two away from knowing what we really have there.
    Last edited by gummy; 02-19-2012 at 02:08 PM.
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