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Thread: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    He plays sg. His job is to shoot not pass, yet he still manages to get more apg then our pg. In comparison our best player Danny gets less then 2 apg... I'd hate for someone to take the ball out of his hands.

    I can't agree with the notion that Monta doesn't look for his teammates. Maybe in years past I'd have agreed but not this year.
    He plays SG for a reason. That reason is that he likes to shoot and that he is good at it. It's not that the Warriors would not want to play him at PG. They'd love it as he would had a miss-match over most PGs. And they had the reason to play him at PG since Curry was injured. So, who got the PG starting spot when Curry was injured?

    Against New York it was Ish Smith. He did good (11 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists and 2 steals) but he was later waived and he signed with the Orlando Magic. He played for 29 minutes and Charles Jenkins filled in for 4 minutes. Some of the PG minutes in this game were probably played by Monta as Nate Robinson was not picked up yet.

    Against Utah it was Charles Jenkins. He only played 9 minutes as Nate Robinson got his spot by playing good and helping them make the comeback. I'm sure that Monta logged some minutes as PG in this game though since Jenkins and Robinson combined for 36 minutes (9+27 respectively) and I doubt that Klay Thompson (played 22 minutes) played PG. By the way, Monta threw a bad pass 17 seconds before the end of the game (it was tied 87-87), Hayward was fouled on the fast break, he split his free throws to give Jazz a 1 point lead and then Monta missed on the buzzer resulting in a Jazz victory.

    Against Miami it was again Charles Jenkins starting again (he played 10 minutes). Nate Robinson filled in for 36 minutes as well. The Warriors won, as we all know, mainly because the Heat were horrible at the free line (whereas Nate Robinson, who led the Warriors in scoring with 24, had 14/14 FTs).

    Against Detroit it was Charles Jenkins again. This time he played 28 minutes and Nate Robinson played 19.

    Against the Nets Charles Jenkins started as well. He only played 11 minutes and Nate Robinson filled in for 26. Apparently, Monta played some PG during that game as well.

    What all this say to us? That the Warriors prefer to start Charles Jenkins or Ish Smith (a player who they later waived as they considered themselves covered after signing Nate Robinson) over playing Monta at PG and starting Klay Thompson or Brandon Rush at SG. So, what's the conclusion? They don't view him as a PG. And that's fine. Cause he is NOT a PG. So, why do people expect him to be the PG of our future?

    As for the assists part. Good scorers command double team. If you can pass out of a double team you're most likely passing to an open man who has an easy to shot. He'll probably make this shot so you got yourself an assist. That's the reason that Kobe had season in which he averaged 6 assists (04-05) and that his assist average is at 4.7 per game. It's not that he is a willing passer or that he could run the point. Hell, it's not that he likes to share the ball either. He just just is such a dominant scorer that commands double teams and can pass it out of it. Thus, he gets assists. That does not mean that either of them would be best at running them. Could they do it? Yeah, probably. But it would not be what they naturally do nor would it be in the best interests of their teams.

    Another point about the assists. The Warriors are a shot happy team. When they take the ball in a good spot, they shoot the ball right away. This results in 2 things. A higher number of 3 point shots taken and a higher number of assists. On the other hand, we are not shooting it the moment we get the ball. We often try to create a better shot and take it closer to the rack. This leads to a higher number of 2 point shots but a lesser number of assists.

    Let us look at the statistics now and see if the above theory is verified. Indiana Pacers average 15.5 3 point shots per game, 65.3 2 point shots per game and 17.7 assists per game. Golden State Warriors average 21.0 3 point shots per game, 60.9 2 point shots per game and 22.6 assists per game.

    As you can see, they take more 3 point shots, less 2 point shots and have more assists. It just explains the differences our play style. We want to take the highest percentage shot, they want to take a lot of shots. It also explains why we get to the foul line more as we're getting it stronger to the rack. We're getting 25.4 FTAs per game, they're getting 20.5 FTAs per game. All of this, was highlighted when we played them.

    As far as Danny's assist numbers are concerned. Danny is a Small Forward. Monta Ellis is a Shooting Guard. Their style of play is different so they're not going to have the same numbers of assists. Compare Danny with a player who resembles his play style. Which brings me to my next point:

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    I actually believe having him around would help Danny's numbers go up in ppg and fg% and probably make him an all-star again. We all know that Danny's a better player than Deng. Deng just has someone that can draw attention away from him and get him open looks
    That's the player I believe that Danny resembles the most. Luol Deng is extremely comparable to Danny. Deng has 2.4 assists as a career average while Danny's is at 2.2. See? Comparable.

    I'm not sure which one of the two is better. They both are damn good. I do agree however that Danny would be a lot better if he had a player like Rose with him. I just don't see Monta being that kind of player.

    PS: All that said, Monta would make us a lot better on the fast break. And that's an area in which we need to improve on.

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Don't you guys ever get tired of talking about this?
    Sort of makes me wonder how many people on PD are in college or just out of college with very little repsonsibilities that require their attention.

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  4. #203
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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Sort of makes me wonder how many people on PD are in college or just out of college with very little repsonsibilities that require their attention.
    I'm in a university and we're currently on a break so you have a point here

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    He wasn't 5-21 though. 3PA are factored in FGAs. He was 5-14 36%
    Ok, you are correct. Of course, don't forget that 36% lowers his putrid FG% even more.

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    Umm how about you read what I posted? 0-6 is factored into the 5-14 already.
    I really find this funny. While you are absolutely correct, 0-6 from three against the worst team in the entire league...maybe league history...is nothing to be proud of for your franchise player....

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yes I quit I'm out
    Liar!!!

    You've already thanked two posts since you've been "out".


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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I really find this funny. While you are absolutely correct, 0-6 from three against the worst team in the entire league...maybe league history...is nothing to be proud of for your franchise player....
    See that is the problem. You guys consider him our franchise player and we just consider him the best player on our franchise.

    Franchise player to me implies Derrick Rose, Koby Bryant, LeBron James, etc.

    None of us who are defending Danny will ever tell you he is in that catagory. As I said before it's not his fault the Pacers have never obtained a player better than him. He can only be the player he is.

    BTW, I thought he had a very bad game yesterday. Not only did he shoot to many three's he blew a fast break by not getting the ball up court to Collison. Believe me in my mind I was giving him an earfull for that one.


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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    See that is the problem. You guys consider him our franchise player and we just consider him the best player on our franchise.

    Franchise player to me implies Derrick Rose, Koby Bryant, LeBron James, etc.

    None of us who are defending Danny will ever tell you he is in that catagory. As I said before it's not his fault the Pacers have never obtained a player better than him. He can only be the player he is.

    BTW, I thought he had a very bad game yesterday. Not only did he shoot to many three's he blew a fast break by not getting the ball up court to Collison. Believe me in my mind I was giving him an earfull for that one.
    There were people claiming he is better than Reggie Miller. That got me riled up a bit I suppose.

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    There were people claiming he is better than Reggie Miller. That got me riled up a bit I suppose.
    You really should be happy that you haven't attended a couple of the last party's.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    0-6 from 3 and 4-15 from the floor? I suppose it's best he has a game like this in a blow out.

    For those keeping score, that's 26%...worse then 6-20.
    Granger was actually 5-14. He was 3-10 in the first half, (.300) and 2 of 4 (.500) in the second half. And of course he didn't need to play more in the second half.

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I really find this funny. While you are absolutely correct, 0-6 from three against the worst team in the entire league...maybe league history...is nothing to be proud of for your franchise player....
    Yeah, Danny took too many 3's in a game where we built up a 40 point lead. 0-6 against any team is bad, but because its the Bobcats its worse? Nope, in fact it had even less of an impact on the game because it didn't even matter.

    I'm sorry, I'm just not really finding faults in anyone's performance when we win by 35 points with the starters not even playing in the 4th quarter.

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    There were people claiming he is better than Reggie Miller. That got me riled up a bit I suppose.
    Who was claiming this?

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    You really should be happy that you haven't attended a couple of the last party's.
    See.

    That's just crazy talk. Let's see where Danny is in 5 years. He'll be deferring to Paul George.

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    See that is the problem. You guys consider him our franchise player and we just consider him the best player on our franchise.

    Franchise player to me implies Derrick Rose, Koby Bryant, LeBron James, etc.

    None of us who are defending Danny will ever tell you he is in that catagory. As I said before it's not his fault the Pacers have never obtained a player better than him. He can only be the player he is.

    BTW, I thought he had a very bad game yesterday. Not only did he shoot to many three's he blew a fast break by not getting the ball up court to Collison. Believe me in my mind I was giving him an earfull for that one.
    BTW, I find it mind blowing that, on one hand he's not a franchise player. On the other hand, he's better than Reggie Miller...who is a future HOF'er. Help me understand this.

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    BTW, I find it mind blowing that, on one hand he's not a franchise player. On the other hand, he's better than Reggie Miller...who is a future HOF'er. Help me understand this.
    Our franchise has had two, count them (2), franchise players in it's history and neither of them played a min. in the NBA.

    Roger Brown & Mel Daniels (Some would argue Big Mac & I'll accept that) were the only two players that you could put almost any group of players around them and they were going to win.

    Reggie, jut like Danny, happened to be the best player for our franchise. By no means was he ever a franchise player.

    Through their first 7 years they have almost identical stats but the one difference is that Danny is a far better rebounder and while many complain about his lazyness on defense on the most lazy of lazy days for him he is still a better defender than Reggie was on almost any given day.

    The big difference on defense between the two is that Reggie worked very hard to become a mediocre defender and Danny has shown that when he puts his mind to it he can be a very good defender.

    Other than big playoff moments why do you think Reggie is so much better than Danny?

    I think they are remarkably similar.


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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    See.

    That's just crazy talk. Let's see where Danny is in 5 years. He'll be deferring to Paul George.
    Just like Reggie's 12th year where he was deferring to Jalen Rose?


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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    As someone who grew up in the 90's idolizing 31, the legend of Reggie is a far better player than Reggie ever was. That is completely blasphemous but it's true.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

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  27. #218
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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Just like Reggie's 12th year where he was deferring to Jalen Rose?
    Actually, with Danny and Paul, it will be more like a clear changing of the guards similar to what happened when Reggie quickly surpassed Chuck Person. ...and that's coming sooner than 5 years.

    BTW, I was a lone voice on this board when Granger came into the league claiming he'd be a great offensive player. Many others thought his strength was defense and he'd be fairly weak on offense. It's not like I haven't backed him because I have...but he's no Reggie Miller. Let's see him play with the game on the line and deliver year after year when the teams are actually competing in the playoffs. Gotta prove it.

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Actually, with Danny and Paul, it will be more like a clear changing of the guards similar to what happened when Reggie quickly surpassed Chuck Person. ...and that's coming sooner than 5 years.

    BTW, I was a lone voice on this board when Granger came into the league claiming he'd be a great offensive player. Many others thought his strength was defense and he'd be fairly weak on offense. It's not like I haven't backed him because I have...but he's no Reggie Miller. Let's see him play with the game on the line and deliver year after year when the teams are actually competing in the playoffs. Gotta prove it.
    Indeed.

    But he has to be given the chance to prove it as well. As I've said this is Danny's seventh season, this is the season Reggie made his name as well.

    The seventh season was the first time that Reggie had a team around him that was good and complimented his skill set. It just so happens that this is also the season that Danny finally has good players around him and they compliment his skill set.

    I know you watched all of the games, just like I have. Think about it for one small minute, see if you can visualize what I'm talking about here.

    What separated Reggie from Jalen?

    What separates Danny from Paul?

    In many ways Jalen was far more athletic than Reggie, probably more skilled than Reggie and had a better all around game than Reggie.

    In many ways Paul is far more athletic than Danny, probably more skilled than Danny and has a better all around game than Danny.

    So what actually makes the former more dangerous than the latter?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Actually, with Danny and Paul, it will be more like a clear changing of the guards similar to what happened when Reggie quickly surpassed Chuck Person. ...and that's coming sooner than 5 years.

    BTW, I was a lone voice on this board when Granger came into the league claiming he'd be a great offensive player. Many others thought his strength was defense and he'd be fairly weak on offense. It's not like I haven't backed him because I have...but he's no Reggie Miller. Let's see him play with the game on the line and deliver year after year when the teams are actually competing in the playoffs. Gotta prove it.
    I'm not saying that Granger is on Reggie's level or ever will be, but the thing that made Reggie a star and a future HOFer, which is his postseason play, is something that Granger hasn't got the opportunity to really show. I can't really fault him for not making the playoffs with all the crappy teams we've had lately. Another thing if you look at his stats the 2 times he actually made the playoffs he played very well, above his regular season avgs
    Last edited by TheDavisBrothers; 02-20-2012 at 11:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Indeed.

    But he has to be given the chance to prove it as well. As I've said this is Danny's seventh season, this is the season Reggie made his name as well.

    The seventh season was the first time that Reggie had a team around him that was good and complimented his skill set. It just so happens that this is also the season that Danny finally has good players around him and they compliment his skill set.

    I know you watched all of the games, just like I have. Think about it for one small minute, see if you can visualize what I'm talking about here.

    What separated Reggie from Jalen?

    What separates Danny from Paul?

    In many ways Jalen was far more athletic than Reggie, probably more skilled than Reggie and had a better all around game than Reggie.

    In many ways Paul is far more athletic than Danny, probably more skilled than Danny and has a better all around game than Danny.

    So what actually makes the former more dangerous than the latter?
    Aggressiveness, will to win, clutch performances...

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    ...What separated Reggie from Jalen?

    What separates Danny from Paul?

    In many ways Jalen was far more athletic than Reggie, probably more skilled than Reggie and had a better all around game than Reggie.

    In many ways Paul is far more athletic than Danny, probably more skilled than Danny and has a better all around game than Danny.

    So what actually makes the former more dangerous than the latter?
    Yeah, I know I'm back... But it's your fault. You brought the thread back on focus... So...

    A player of somewhat lesser ability is better not because of his talents, but because of a combination of three things: heart, willingness to adapt and what is between his ears.

    Jordan, despite his superior athleticism and skills, never would have reached his greatness without being smart enough to analyze his own game and determine what was missing in order to become truly the best h could be. So, after a couple of years of being a volume shooter and risk-taking defender he basically willed himself to put in the time to become an excellent mid-range and perimeter shooter and became much more disciplined defensively. The result? A virtually unstoppable offensive player and a defensive player that could wreak defensive havoc on three positions.

    I said it earlier in the thread, Jalen should have been at least Reggie's equal. Under Brown, Reggie bought in to Brown's sermons and became a good (not great, but good) defensive player... And was willing and disciplined to use his new found defensive talents from that point forward nearly every game he played. Jalen, who had offensive abilities near the level of Reggie's, was a significantly better defender than Reggie. Unfortunately, Jalen was not introspective enough to realize what would make him a truly great player. If he had just dedicated himself to playing hard, and disciplined, at both ends of the floor at all times, fans would have been chanting "Jaaa-len" every bit as often as they chanted for Reggie. AND... that would have included me.

    I think the verdict is out on Granger. He doesn't openly show his passion and joy for the game like Reggie, and he doesn't do anything flash, so fans, particularly the younger fans, aren't drawn to him like they were for Reggie. But Danny has that same smarts and introspection about his game and the needs of his team. He realized that Roy, DC and George would improve, and also that we had added Hill and would probably also be adding a new PF, so what did he do? He realized that he would have more offensive support and thus re-dedicated himself on defense. What I expect to see from Granger next season would be his recognition that he let his shooting slip this year, and that he needs to improve his handles. Granger has the prerequisites for greatness...willingness, heart and the smarts to know what he needs to improve on. I can't wait to see what kind of player he will be in another year.

    I am extremely excited about George. He's already a very good defender, but recognizes that he has a lot to learn to become a great defender. Offensively, I think George realizes that by improving his handles he could become the most unstoppable 6-10+ player in the league. Everything we are told informs how dedicated George is in wanting to improve and become the best player he can be. Now, let's see if he has the heart and internal drive to get it done. It seems to me that the only things that could stop George from becoming a truly great player are injury and George himself.

    This is why I'm a liitle concerned about the slam dunk contest. For lack of a lengthier explanation, I don't want success in the contest to get in the way of his focusing on other improvements that he needs to make. What I definitely see in George's game is the same outward expression of joy and passion that Reggie had. Fans, again especially the younger fans, are already drawn to George's talents and love of the game. The will always love Granger, at least the smart ones anyway, but if George is able to grow his game in the ways that we would hope, he has a very good shot of becoming one of the best and most loved Pacers ever.

    Jeesh.... What an epiphany. And to think... I hate kumbaya.

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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    The answer to my question is a little of what both of you have said.

    I'll just make it a little more simple.

    Both Reggie & Danny are killers.

    If you light a fire under either of them they will explode. They both play better when they are mad.

    Neither shy's away from a big moment and both will rise to the occasion of the game.

    Jalen & Paul I think are better overall players but they don't have that extra gear.

    It's not something you can teach or become. I think you are either born with it or your not.

    Now is Reggie more of a killer than Danny? Probably. But the spirit is certainly there for Danny.


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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    peck and beast pretty much have it spot on regarding danny. he's still the best player on our team and a very good performer in the fourth quarter when the game matters. the rest of the team, bar west, look up to him. what more could you want from a guy who we know is not an elite franchise player?

  36. #225
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravits article about Danny... (Vnzla81 you'll want to skip this) :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The answer to my question is a little of what both of you have said.

    I'll just make it a little more simple.

    Both Reggie & Danny are killers.

    If you light a fire under either of them they will explode. They both play better when they are mad.

    Neither shy's away from a big moment and both will rise to the occasion of the game.

    Jalen & Paul I think are better overall players but they don't have that extra gear.

    It's not something you can teach or become. I think you are either born with it or your not.

    Now is Reggie more of a killer than Danny? Probably. But the spirit is certainly there for Danny.
    My view on this is pretty simple. I see Reggie as being far more difficult to guard than Danny Granger...and that becomes extremely important in playoff games when winning is far more important.

    Consider the fact Reggie would literally be flying around the perimeter, catch the ball and shoot it with extreme elevation while fading away from the rim...yet amazingly, even when he was doing that, his FG% and 3pt% were still a lot higher than Danny's.

    That skill wins the big games Peck. That's why Reggie > Danny IMHO.

    Edit: ok...I said literally flying. I suppose I do remember the Reg with a little more flair than reality. Still, the point stands.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 02-21-2012 at 08:11 PM.

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