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Thread: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

  1. #176

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...P11_hot_topics

    I can't get anymore straight forward than that. Not to mention that the NFL turned to Dr. Hsu to get his opinion.
    He studied 7 or 8 NFL quarterbacks and 4 of them had the surgery. Thats not a lot to go on and he also says this..

    I don't know Peyton Manning's case specifically
    And from the paper..
    The position of quarterback was a positive predictor for career length after treatment; however, this could be explained by longer careers for quarterbacks in general
    I made this point before and I will make it again. This was a messy study and his statiistical anaylsis was sloppy at best which makes it hard interpret. Its not like he performed the surgeries and followed all 99 cases. He used what medical records he had and news articles and he admits that this could have skewed things.

    Fact is age is a factor, condition of injury is a factor in which case Manning was more than likley worse if he was initially injuried in 2006. He wouldn't have been able to even partake in the study but I understand that QB's tend to fair better and that makes sense to me.

    I fully expect him to be back in the NFL but I wouldn't say he has a good shot at being 100%.

  2. #177
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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    I understand that. I'm not arguing Peyton WILL be 100%.

    I'm arguing the absurdity of saying "we don't know what will happen" and then saying "but Peyton will never be 100% again." Not only is it down right stupid to argue on principle, it also just comletely ignores the fact that people have, and will continue, fully recovered from this type of injury and surgery.

  3. #178

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    No there is a lot more to regenerative research than nerves, for example bone. That is a huge field and then there is regenerative research relating to the heart to repair damage caused by heart attacks, and then there is regenerative research related to eyes caused by macular degeneration, and regenerative research related to liver damage and kidney damage so that people don't need kidney transplants and dialysis. Do you get the point now?
    They do not regenerate nerves regardless of what you might find on the internet which might I remind you is not considered a scientific source of information. If you want science go to real journals and not some fly by night internet article. Anyone can write any nonsense on the internet. Do you have a reference as to who did the work, how reputable the information is or not? You don't get science form the internet. OK. No scientist publishes anything in a magazine or newspaper article. At least cite an article that has a link to a journal where you can see the research evidence. Otherwise your citations are equivalent to cancer cures in third world countries by quacks.
    I'll save Since86 some time and post this.. ITs more than likely Dr Carlos Lima and here is an article.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1864811/

    You can look up the citations to learn more but he doesn't have a lot of publications personally but MSCells have been studied by others.

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  5. #179
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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    I wasn't even going to address it. I've wasted more than enough time leading the horse to water. If he doesn't want to drink, then that's on him.

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I wasn't even going to address it. I've wasted more than enough time leading the horse to water. If he doesn't want to drink, then that's on him.
    Not sure if coincidence, or bc his avy is a horse
    I Bleed Blue

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  8. #181
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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Didnt even notice.

  9. #182

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I wasn't even going to address it. I've wasted more than enough time leading the horse to water. If he doesn't want to drink, then that's on him.
    ITs tricky Since86. I have personally studied MSC's and people claim stuff all the time and there is a reason why the US won't allow certain therapies here. IT may work for nerves but multiple clinical studies have to be done and that takes a long time. As far as I can find Lima has one publication which wouldn't comfort me if I had to go under his knife.

    ITs not unheard of that a Quad could get marginally better over time but again its hard to say this was due to the cells especially when you can't track them. I have seen enough crappy scientific articles in my day to not believe any publication out right. In fact I can send you a 100 publications right now that I fully know are incorrect on one a specific stem cell type.

    This guy started in 2001 and thats enough time for others to repeat and for it to be a proven therapy. I guess it could be held up by patents but I doubt it.

  10. #183

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I wasn't even going to address it. I've wasted more than enough time leading the horse to water. If he doesn't want to drink, then that's on him.
    The Lima article i s not even close to a quad walking again. These are small steps and I have no problem accepting small steps that will lead to cures someday.

  11. #184

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    ITs tricky Since86. I have personally studied MSC's and people claim stuff all the time and there is a reason why the US won't allow certain therapies here. IT may work for nerves but multiple clinical studies have to be done and that takes a long time. As far as I can find Lima has one publication which wouldn't comfort me if I had to go under his knife.

    ITs not unheard of that a Quad could get marginally better over time but again its hard to say this was due to the cells especially when you can't track them. I have seen enough crappy scientific articles in my day to not believe any publication out right. In fact I can send you a 100 publications right now that I fully know are incorrect on one a specific stem cell type.

    This guy started in 2001 and thats enough time for others to repeat and for it to be a proven therapy. I guess it could be held up by patents but I doubt it.
    You are correct that it has to be demonstrated that the therapy actually caused the improvement and not mother nature. I am a believer in stem cell therapy for a host of maladies but I would like to see what results others found using olfactory mucosa. If you have studied this are there mouse experiments to verify Lima's results.

  12. #185

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    You are correct that it has to be demonstrated that the therapy actually caused the improvement and not mother nature. I am a believer in stem cell therapy for a host of maladies but I would like to see what results others found using olfactory mucosa. If you have studied this are there mouse experiments to verify Lima's results.
    Ask and you shall recieve. Here is a pilot study from India and Lima trained the group.

    http://www.nature.com/sc/journal/v47.../sc200954a.pdf

    Pretty much doesn't verify his results.

    As far as mouse studies here is one for hippocampal lesion which is not the same but shows the potential. JCI is also not a bad journal.

    http://www.jci.org/articles/view/44489

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  14. #186

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    You are correct that it has to be demonstrated that the therapy actually caused the improvement and not mother nature. I am a believer in stem cell therapy for a host of maladies but I would like to see what results others found using olfactory mucosa. If you have studied this are there mouse experiments to verify Lima's results.
    One thing I should point out when you read publications is the MD or PhD next to the name. MD's can take a different scientific approach and can be under trained IMO.

    My quick explanation for this is that their career path is different and of course is more clinical.

    PHD career path is like this.. 4 undergraduate, 4/5 years grad, 2 years post doc and maybe an additional 2 years before they get a PI job. Then they still have to try to get tenure LOL..

    MD's that want to do research basically skip the 4/5 years training and do a condensed 2 years (sort of like a postdoc) and a lot of times have clinical repsonsibilities as well. They can get more on the job training but there is a difference there that often times gets ignored and shows up in the research.

    Don't get me wrong I know plenty of MD's that do a fantastic job but I also know some that do a terrible job and don't think through things. I mean just think if a PhD wanted to be a clinician you wouldn't expect him to great doctor after 2/3 years of training would you?

    Hsu is a good example of what I am talking about. The guy used fantasy football stats to do analysis of performance. Over half the study included defensive players and his only way to measure was your typical FF stat line of sacks, picks, and return TD's.

    Its sort of appalling when you think about it. I mean he could have easily looked up tackles, tackles for losses, pass deflections etc. and did a much better job. IT was a easy sloppy approach that is far to common IMO.

  15. #187

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    One thing I should point out when you read publications is the MD or PhD next to the name. MD's can take a different scientific approach and can be under trained IMO.

    My quick explanation for this is that their career path is different and of course is more clinical.

    PHD career path is like this.. 4 undergraduate, 4/5 years grad, 2 years post doc and maybe an additional 2 years before they get a PI job. Then they still have to try to get tenure LOL..

    MD's that want to do research basically skip the 4/5 years training and do a condensed 2 years (sort of like a postdoc) and a lot of times have clinical repsonsibilities as well. They can get more on the job training but there is a difference there that often times gets ignored and shows up in the research.

    Don't get me wrong I know plenty of MD's that do a fantastic job but I also know some that do a terrible job and don't think through things. I mean just think if a PhD wanted to be a clinician you wouldn't expect him to great doctor after 2/3 years of training would you?

    Hsu is a good example of what I am talking about. The guy used fantasy football stats to do analysis of performance. Over half the study included defensive players and his only way to measure was your typical FF stat line of sacks, picks, and return TD's.

    Its sort of appalling when you think about it. I mean he could have easily looked up tackles, tackles for losses, pass deflections etc. and did a much better job. IT was a easy sloppy approach that is far to common IMO.
    My experience with MDs especially those who have both degrees is pretty much the opposite. Most MDs would not go near a research facility but those interested in research bring alot. Right there they separate themselves from the rest of their herd. Take a look at some of the really great researchers at medical schools, the NIH, and private research institutes and you will see very talented trained physicians. MDs have access to patients which PhDs don't so that makes a tremendous difference. They can move beyond the stage of working with rodents which is a real limitation in translating research into practice. Lots of Phds suck at research too.

  16. #188

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    My experience with MDs especially those who have both degrees is pretty much the opposite. Most MDs would not go near a research facility but those interested in research bring alot. Right there they separate themselves from the rest of their herd. Take a look at some of the really great researchers at medical schools, the NIH, and private research institutes and you will see very talented trained physicians. MDs have access to patients which PhDs don't so that makes a tremendous difference. They can move beyond the stage of working with rodents which is a real limitation in translating research into practice. Lots of Phds suck at research too.
    Md phds are different than mds alone. They go through much more training on the phd side. Just take it from a guy who has worked with plenty.

    Having one or two publcations tells me these guys are more on the clinical side of things and are not experts. Atleast that's my take on lima.

  17. #189

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Md phds are different than mds alone. They go through much more training on the phd side. Just take it from a guy who has worked with plenty.

    Having one or two publcations tells me these guys are more on the clinical side of things and are not experts. Atleast that's my take on lima.
    Very hard to judge MDs from different countries like China where in some places it is no more than a 4 year degree. The training is really different and not to be too chauvenistic we do a fairly good job training MDs in this country. So who knows what's Lima's equivalent education. So many MDs from foreign countries have to spend a few years before they can be certified here.

  18. #190

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Very hard to judge MDs from different countries like China where in some places it is no more than a 4 year degree. The training is really different and not to be too chauvenistic we do a fairly good job training MDs in this country. So who knows what's Lima's equivalent education. So many MDs from foreign countries have to spend a few years before they can be certified here.
    I have personally worked with mds from china and germany and the US. There is a difference between mds and phds. The mds that are sold out for research have the publications to show it.

    Lima and hsu don't have it imo.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 03-05-2012 at 10:49 PM.

  19. #191

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I have personally worked with mds from china and germany and the US. There is a difference between mds and phds. The mds that are sold out for research have the publications to show it.

    Lima and hsu don't have it imo.
    The next question is whether you believe that their research has merit. Some of these guys are just opportunists.

  20. #192

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    The next question is whether you believe that their research has merit. Some of these guys are just opportunists.
    Hsu has a lot more publications than Lima and he is not engaging in some questionable therapies. A lot of his studies are imaging based or technique based which are useful for the clinical side but are not stem cell based.

    His only stem cell based study is on fat derived cells to enhance spinal fusion. Its not converting them to nerves.

    His MLB, NFL, NHL studies are just collecting data and analyzing it. Most of the time they pay someone to track down all the information and then they do the analysis and write up the paper. Its helpful but his analysis for perfomance is weak.

    My opinion is that I believe Hsu reports about having a fusion increases your chances of returning to play but I don't believe that he did an adequate job showing that players return to a similar level of play before they had an injury.

    Lima trained the group in India and they didn't see the same results. I think most people would look at that and question his results with stem cells.

  21. #193
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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    No. He's a quack equivalent to third world cancer curers.

  22. #194

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    No. He's a quack equivalent to third world cancer curers.

    See #192
    His only stem cell based study is on fat derived cells to enhance spinal fusion. Its not converting them to nerves.


    Not a quack but not a nerve specialist either.

  23. #195

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Hsu has a lot more publications than Lima and he is not engaging in some questionable therapies. A lot of his studies are imaging based or technique based which are useful for the clinical side but are not stem cell based.

    His only stem cell based study is on fat derived cells to enhance spinal fusion. Its not converting them to nerves.

    His MLB, NFL, NHL studies are just collecting data and analyzing it. Most of the time they pay someone to track down all the information and then they do the analysis and write up the paper. Its helpful but his analysis for perfomance is weak.

    My opinion is that I believe Hsu reports about having a fusion increases your chances of returning to play but I don't believe that he did an adequate job showing that players return to a similar level of play before they had an injury.

    Lima trained the group in India and they didn't see the same results. I think most people would look at that and question his results with stem cells.
    The mouse studies seemed to suggest some positive results however. I don't quite get why more investigators haven't tried to confirm Lima's work unless they think he's not reputable.

  24. #196
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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    See #192
    His only stem cell based study is on fat derived cells to enhance spinal fusion. Its not converting them to nerves.


    Not a quack but not a nerve specialist either.
    Nah, just a spinal specialist. Not like a spinal specialist has any relevancy with Peyton Manning's injury. Nope. None.

    His opinion isn't based on anything medically. Or atleast that's what you've told me a couple different times, as I was restating his opinion.

  25. #197

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    The mouse studies seemed to suggest some positive results however. I don't quite get why more investigators haven't tried to confirm Lima's work unless they think he's not reputable.
    Here is a response to the Lima study.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1927810/

    A great deal of enthusiasm from some corners of medical researchers, injured individuals, the media, and the lay public for new techniques aimed at “cure” have led some to the expectation that a cure is imminent (1–3). To date, however, none of the recent trials has shown dramatic changes in neurological or functional recovery.
    You can read the rest of the article but you can see the points that Lima's is getting criticized for.

    Here is another good overview of where things are at and who has published on the use of these cells.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...14488610003249

  26. #198

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Here is a response to the Lima study.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1927810/



    You can read the rest of the article but you can see the points that Lima's is getting criticized for.

    Here is another good overview of where things are at and who has published on the use of these cells.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...14488610003249
    At the very least his idea of using olfactory mucosal nerve cells is innovative.

  27. #199

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    At the very least his idea of using olfactory mucosal nerve cells is innovative.
    Bottom line it has to work to matter and right now I know of more than one clinical trail that has been shown not to work in small animal models but because of politics and crappy science certain people push it through. I just feel bad for the people who are given false hope as a result.

  28. #200
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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    I can't post the link, because of work restrictions but.....

    According to Michael Lombardi
    It will cost the Colts $16mil against the cap to release PM versus $17mil to keep him. "The biggest difference, and this is huge for everyone to understand, is it would cost [Jim] Irsay $28 million to make that difference." "So it's a cash issue, not a cap issue."
    So that's saying $9mil of the bonus wouldn't be a cap hit? So it really comes down to whether or not Irsay wants to spend the money in order to keep him, not the cap hit.

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