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Thread: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

  1. #151
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    I don't think Orvlosky was bad as a backup and ultimately the starter... Polian was just too stubborn to admit it and stuck with Painter prior to the season and cut DanO. Of course what option did Polian have... he couldn't do what fans and pundits said was the obvious thing could he? He had to be the smartest man in the room and go the stubborn route.
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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    He is talking about the spinal fusion which can be accompanied by nerve deficits or no nerve deficits. Much of the time there is no nerve damage so yes it is easy to predict recovery. You just can't lump spinal fusions into a single class. As for his fusion there probably is complete success but as for his muscle weakness we will just have to wait until we see how well he can throw-- what his arm velocity is, how well he can hit certain spots on the field, if he can hit a target with a soft or hard pass, etc. After all the years of honing his skills we will see exactly what is left and what isn't.

    If the expert had talked about the nerve problem and muscle atrophy as separate issues that would have been helpful. Spinal fusions are commonly done on people who have no muscle or nerve degeneration at all.
    Yeah, you're right. A doctor specializing in spinal injuries is only going to talk about the bone part of the spine. Nothing else.



    Oh, you mean it goes deeper than that? Who woulda thunk it?
    Wellington Hsu, MD (Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, Chicago). Dr. Hsu is a spine surgeon at Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine with a special interest in trauma and minimally invasive instrumentation. He also serves as the director of the Professional Athlete's Spine Initiative, which compiles data on athletes who undergo treatment for spinal conditions. At Northwestern, Dr. Hsu heads the Laboratory for Regenerative Technologies. He has a research interest in tissue engineering and bone graft substitutes for spinal fusion. Dr. Hsu is a member of several professional societies, including Cervical Spine Research Society, American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons and North American Spine Society. Dr. Hsu earned his medical degree at Vanderbilt University School of Medicine in Nashville, Tenn., and completed his residency in orthopedic surgery at UCLA Medical Center. His additional training includes a basic science fellowship at UCLA and a fellowship in spinal surgery and spinal cord injury at the University of Wisconsin Hospital and Clinics in Madison.
    http://beckersorthopedicandspine.com...nd-development

    What's regenerative technologies? Good thing you asked.

    The emerging field of treatment called “regenerative medicine” or “cell therapy” refers to treatments that are founded on the concept of producing new cells to replace malfunctioning or damaged cells as a vehicle to treat disease and injury. Our focus is the development of effective methods to generate replacement cells from stem cells.
    http://www.advancedcell.com/our-tech...tive-medicine/
    Last edited by Since86; 03-02-2012 at 10:51 AM.

  3. #153
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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I don't think Orvlosky was bad as a backup and ultimately the starter... Polian was just too stubborn to admit it and stuck with Painter prior to the season and cut DanO. Of course what option did Polian have... he couldn't do what fans and pundits said was the obvious thing could he? He had to be the smartest man in the room and go the stubborn route.
    Nah. Reggie Wayne's comments should help paint the picture.
    "We don't even know him, we ain't vanilla, man, we ain't no simple offense," receiver Reggie Wayne said. "So for him to can come in here and be the starter, I don't see it. I think that's a step back."

    Wayne, a five-time Pro Bowler and one of Manning's favorite targets, has supported backup Curtis Painter. And while he called Collins "a great guy," he said he was worried about the Colts getting better.

    "Who says Kerry's going to be the starter?" Wayne said. "Just because we bring him in doesn't mean he's the starter. He's got to learn too, right? Unless they gave him a playbook months ago, he's got to learn to.

    "I don't care who you are, I mean I'm not going to let anyone just come in here and just push someone (like Painter) aside like you're that dog now, you know what I mean?" Wayne added.
    http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/68...-manning-ready
    Last edited by Since86; 03-02-2012 at 11:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Kravitz is tweeting that Peyton is throwing "much much better".

    https://twitter.com/#!/bkravitz/stat...05209484115973

  5. #155
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    I'm not convinced, no matter how much Irsay will want Peyton back, that some other team won't be willing to pay more than Irsay given the circumstances. Unless Manning is willing to come back to the Colts in the current rebuilding climate, and take a contract that is less than what some other team will pay him then he will be gone.

    Like I said, I think Irsay will offer more than any other owner would in his shoes... but that is not the same as saying Irsay will meet or beat any other offers Manning would get. Other teams aren't in the same boat as the Colts.

    This has to be a gut-wrenching decision for Irsay to be dealing with.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Archie says Peyton is throwing well.

    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...200822542.html

    I really really hope we can work it out and keep him. I want to see more Manning.

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Hmmm....

    "His neck is no different than any player's out there. It's a danger to anyone. That's football. As parent[s], we feel good [about] where he's at."
    So much for all the "health risks" Peyton needed to think about.

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I'm not convinced, no matter how much Irsay will want Peyton back, that some other team won't be willing to pay more than Irsay given the circumstances. Unless Manning is willing to come back to the Colts in the current rebuilding climate, and take a contract that is less than what some other team will pay him then he will be gone.

    Like I said, I think Irsay will offer more than any other owner would in his shoes... but that is not the same as saying Irsay will meet or beat any other offers Manning would get. Other teams aren't in the same boat as the Colts.

    This has to be a gut-wrenching decision for Irsay to be dealing with.
    Manning will be offered more than his original contract with the Colts and a bigger bonus too.... Irsay is an idiot. He should just honor the contract and trade the rights to Luck for a bunch of picks that are headed toward St. Louis right now........

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    His neck has not been a problem for a while, it is just the nerve stuff... I think he will be a Colt next year... It will be kind of weird until summer practice starts then no one will even be thinking about it...
    Why so SERIOUS

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Where are all the Manning doubters @, I wanna see your opinion
    I Bleed Blue

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by CreekShow View Post
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    Where are all the Manning doubters @, I wanna see your opinion
    Great to hear positive reports but I'll believe he's 100% when I see it on the field.

    I still don't think the Colts can afford to pay the bonus with the risk of not getting anything in return and given the current roster. If Manning chooses to stay with the Colts under a better contract then that would be great news.

    Under a major assumption that Manning returns full force, how many solid years do you actually think he has left? In the unfortunate event that Manning chooses somewhere else, we have to see him lead another team for 3-5 (and not the prime years). If we lose out on Luck and he becomes a star, then we'll be feeling that pain for 15 or so years.

    What other QB options have as high a percentage as Luck to be successful in the NFL? (RG3 isn't an option given he would be gone if we trade down)

    I'm for Manning returning...just not by paying his huge bonus and hindering the Colts ability to fill the rest of the roster. Too big of a gamble.

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Yeah, you're right. A doctor specializing in spinal injuries is only going to talk about the bone part of the spine. Nothing else.



    Oh, you mean it goes deeper than that? Who woulda thunk it?

    http://beckersorthopedicandspine.com...nd-development

    What's regenerative technologies? Good thing you asked.


    http://www.advancedcell.com/our-tech...tive-medicine/
    Nothing you have posted has to do with nerve regeneration and as far as I know no one has developed any technology to regenerate nerves. All your quotes pertain to both tissue and bone growth processes which is a very hot field today.. if we could regenerate nerves then paralyzed people would be walking again. As much as a millimeter break in the spinal cord leads to paralysis and that can't be reversed There are hundreds of nerve degenerative diseases that have no known cause and no cures. Old people lose brain volume due to loss of brain and nerve mass and no one has a cure for that yet. When your specialists specifically talk about reversing nerve function let me know. Someday this will happen using stem cells but until that day occurs people will have to have nerve repair the old fashion way letting nature take its course.

    If nerves die they are dead. If they are damaged they can possibly come back with time.

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Just stop. Everytime you write something else, you just dig your hole deeper.

    Stem cell surgery helps quadriplegic walk again

    http://capitalregion.ynn.com/content...ic-walk-again/

    Oh, and check out the date. It's been FOUR YEARS ago.

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    Great to hear positive reports but I'll believe he's 100% when I see it on the field.

    I still don't think the Colts can afford to pay the bonus with the risk of not getting anything in return and given the current roster. If Manning chooses to stay with the Colts under a better contract then that would be great news.

    Under a major assumption that Manning returns full force, how many solid years do you actually think he has left? In the unfortunate event that Manning chooses somewhere else, we have to see him lead another team for 3-5 (and not the prime years). If we lose out on Luck and he becomes a star, then we'll be feeling that pain for 15 or so years.

    What other QB options have as high a percentage as Luck to be successful in the NFL? (RG3 isn't an option given he would be gone if we trade down)

    I'm for Manning returning...just not by paying his huge bonus and hindering the Colts ability to fill the rest of the roster. Too big of a gamble.
    If you draft Luck and he does not become a star, the franchise is damaged for the next 15 years.....

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    If you draft Luck and he does not become a star, the franchise is damaged for the next 15 years.....
    As long as he turns into atleast a Big Ben type player we should be cool... With Pagano as HC I think we will really build a strong defense. If Luck does not get back there and have a bunch of turnovers then we should be fine in the future.
    Why so SERIOUS

  17. #166

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Just stop. Everytime you write something else, you just dig your hole deeper.


    http://capitalregion.ynn.com/content...ic-walk-again/

    Oh, and check out the date. It's been FOUR YEARS ago.
    As far as I know there is no clinically "proven" therapy for nerve regeneration using stem cells.

    Here is a quote from a expert about Manning and his stem cell therapy.

    Indeed, Dr. Lawrence Goldstein, director of the University of California-San Diego Stem Cell Program, said he was unaware of any stem cell approach that is proven to help “any sort of spinal issue.

    “There are many proposed therapies that are being tested in clinical trials, and there are more to come,” Goldstein said in an email. “But in the absence of reliable evidence, it is impossible to know whether the ‘treatment’ will make Manning better or worse or merely financially poorer.”
    Fact is reliable evidence is hard to show especially in humans as you need a way to track the cells that are repairing the damage and even then those methods can lead to false data and misinterepretation.

    Since86, you keep bringing up the Hsu study but Manning wouldn't even qualify as a test subject for that study because his injury was too severe and he already had multiple operations.

    Don't get me wrong I think Manning will be back on the field and I agree with Hsu quote but he doesn't say he will be back to 100%.

    At what level will he be back no one knows but I hope he atleast works with Irsay and restructuring his contract. If he doesn't then I say Manning is the one not being very loyal as he was paid to 26 million last year to hold a clip board.

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Really? View Post
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    As long as he turns into atleast a Big Ben type player we should be cool... With Pagano as HC I think we will really build a strong defense. If Luck does not get back there and have a bunch of turnovers then we should be fine in the future.
    Uh, Big Ben is a star and Luck will be hard pressed to achieve what Ben has in his career...... Well, look on the bright side, at least this didn't happen when Jamarkus Russell was the second coming..... Luck could just as easily be a Russell, a Leaf, a Carr and any number of top draft choices...... 50-50 at best..... I think Manning is a lot better shot than that even with this injury. It seems clear to me that Peyton is close to 100% right now and certainly will be by training camp. I guess it all comes down to what you want. You can do a complete rebuild with Luck and be a bottom feeder for the next five or six years. Or, you could trade the rights to Luck for lots of picks to shore the Colts up for many years, go with a proven Peyton Manning and win while you rebuild and perhaps even compete for a Superbowl........ Not much of a choice in my eyes......

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Uh, Big Ben is a star and Luck will be hard pressed to achieve what Ben has in his career...... Well, look on the bright side, at least this didn't happen when Jamarkus Russell was the second coming..... Luck could just as easily be a Russell, a Leaf, a Carr and any number of top draft choices...... 50-50 at best..... I think Manning is a lot better shot than that even with this injury. It seems clear to me that Peyton is close to 100% right now and certainly will be by training camp. I guess it all comes down to what you want. You can do a complete rebuild with Luck and be a bottom feeder for the next five or six years. Or, you could trade the rights to Luck for lots of picks to shore the Colts up for many years, go with a proven Peyton Manning and win while you rebuild and perhaps even compete for a Superbowl........ Not much of a choice in my eyes......
    Big Ben is cool, never really put up terrific numbers, just made plays. He has been fairly consistent which is a good thing, but I give his defense more credit for the championships than I do him.

    I think you are really off bass with Russell, Leaf and Carr when comparing them to Luck. Luck has/had consistently show a lot more than all those 3 every year he was in college.

    I do like Peyton and would like him back possibly, but the thing is no matter what we are going to be in a bad situation this year. There is no way you bring back Peyton without bringing back some of the key pieces around him, Clark, Wayne, Addai. All of these guys are top targets and all are declining in play and could easily be cut. If Peyton is only around a couple of years then I feel he will not be able to win with this group. We won't really have tons of money to bring in the talent he will need around him to get another ring here. Add the fact that we are installing a all new defense this will be a bumpy path for atleast a year or 2.

    By bringing in Luck we acknowledge that we are rebuilding, and give it about a 2-3 year time before we expect to really become contenders, it may happen faster than that but that is about where I am thinking. I think Luck's bottom will be Matt Stafford and I am okay with that, it took him about 2.5 years to get where I would like him to be, I think it will take Luck about the same depending on what weapons he gets put around him.

    At times I am kind of confused on what I would like, everyone loves Peyton, but having him here would be a waste of the rest of his career I believe, yes Luck could gain a lot from him, but he will learn a lot with game experience as well, and grow to become his own person.

    Although I want Peyton back as a Colt, I realize that it would not be good for this organization or Peyton, we did not really set up well for the transition to life after Peyton and now we will have to deal with it.

    If Luck has a bad year like Peyton did to start out oh well. We have a young line that will be growing, so then we can go ahead and add offensive weapons around him with top picks in the draft... this kid Robert Woods from USC is pretty good.
    Why so SERIOUS

  20. #169

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Just stop. Everytime you write something else, you just dig your hole deeper.


    http://capitalregion.ynn.com/content...ic-walk-again/

    Oh, and check out the date. It's been FOUR YEARS ago.
    I think Gamble 1 (post 166) said it best so I don't have to repeat what he said but no there is no cure as yet for paralysis which is why there are still so many wheel chair bound quads.

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    As far as I know there is no clinically "proven" therapy for nerve regeneration using stem cells.

    Here is a quote from a expert about Manning and his stem cell therapy.
    That's not the point I was making. My point was that he's talking out of his *** continually.

    Let's remember what started this portion of the conversation.

    "We don't know what will happen." Full agree'd. And then in his very next post.

    "Manning will never return to 100%."

    If you don't know what will happen, then you shouldn't be saying what won't happen. It's a pretty blantant contradiction. And since then, he's only trying to qualify his contradiction to make it seem like he's on the right track.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Fact is reliable evidence is hard to show especially in humans as you need a way to track the cells that are repairing the damage and even then those methods can lead to false data and misinterepretation.

    Since86, you keep bringing up the Hsu study but Manning wouldn't even qualify as a test subject for that study because his injury was too severe and he already had multiple operations.
    Now hold on....

    Peyton wouldn't be included in the study, because his injury was too severe? Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of the study.... It's not about how severe the injury's are, it's about what was the best course of action to take when a player IS injured.

    The study is a pretty basic one. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20714275
    Outcomes following nonoperative and operative treatment for cervical disc herniations in National Football League athletes.
    That's the title of the study. That's it.

    CONCLUSION:
    The data in this study suggest that players have higher return-to-play rates and longer careers after operative treatment than players treated with nonoperative means. Although confounding variables such as concomitant cervical stenosis could have affected these data, these performance-based outcomes after surgical treatment for CDH are better than previously thought. Defensive backs have a poorer prognosis after CDH compared with players of all other positions.
    The highlighted is/was Peyton's problem. Or atleast the suspected problem.
    Last edited by Since86; 03-05-2012 at 02:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    If you draft Luck and he does not become a star, the franchise is damaged for the next 15 years.....

    That's just simply not true. We drafted Jeff George in 1990 and he was obviously a bust. Yet in 1995 we were in the AFC Championship game with a different QB. In 1998 we were able to draft Manning.

    Obviously Luck not panning out (whenever he plays) wouldn't be a good thing. But to say it would set the franchise back FIFTEEN years is a bit much, IMO. If Luck was a bust then that would presumably mean that our team would be bad with him which would then mean that we would be getting high draft picks. You always have a chance to get better if you have competent management.

    On a side note, it's pretty interesting that our franchise has had 3 number 1 picks in 23 years with big name QBs on the board. That's something most franchises never get a shot at.

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    I think Gamble 1 (post 166) said it best so I don't have to repeat what he said but no there is no cure as yet for paralysis which is why there are still so many wheel chair bound quads.
    Did I say there was a cure? No. You said they cannot renegerate nerves. If you would have actually followed the damn link I provided, which is starting to be a pretty big trend with you, you would have read this little gem.

    Three years ago at a high school graduation party, a diving accident left Paul a quadriplegic. The former champion swimmer for Canandaigua went to Portugal for an experimental surgery last year. They took stem cells from his nose and placed them in his neck in hopes of repairing his injured spinal cord. Slowly, Paul is getting the feeling back in his hands and legs.
    http://capitalregion.ynn.com/content...ic-walk-again/

    Saying there isn't a cure, right now, would be correct. Saying they can't regenerate nerves, right now, is false.



    Not to mention that you've just said that regenerative technologies has nothing to do with regenerating nerves. The whole ****ing point of regenerative research is to do just that.

  24. #173

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    That's not the point I was making. My point was that he's talking out of his *** continually.

    Let's remember what started this portion of the conversation.

    "We don't know what will happen." Full agree'd. And then in his very next post.

    "Manning will never return to 100%."

    If you don't know what will happen, then you shouldn't be saying what won't happen. It's a pretty blantant contradiction. And since then, he's only trying to qualify his contradiction to make it seem like he's on the right track.





    Now hold on....

    Peyton wouldn't be included in the study, because his injury was too severe? Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of the study.... It's not about how severe the injury's are, it's about what was the best course of action to take when a player IS injured.

    The study is a pretty basic one.

    That's the title of the study. That's it.



    The highlighted is/was Peyton's problem. Or atleast the suspected problem.
    From what I have read Manning had a bulging disc and from the methods and material section that would have excluded him and the other surgeries.

    Inclusion criteria were NFL players reported with a "disc herniation" or "herniated disc" in the neck or cervical spine, symptoms including upper extremity radiculopathy, on the active roster of an NFL team at the time of injury, had a confirmed treatment plan listed from at least 2 different independent sources, and were listed on at least 1 weekly injury report. Players with conflicting medical information from different sources, diagnosed with a "bulging disc," "protruding disc," "neck strain," "cervical strain," "spinal cord injury," or "fracture" were excluded.
    Scientific studies tend to simplify criteria for who is in the study and who isn't and multiple surgeries before the actual study would only complicate matters and make it harder to publish in a good journal (basically is the result found do to the fusion, microdissection or the stem cell therapy). Any reviewer of that article would criticize a inclusion criteria that would allow Manning apart of that study. I can find the actual quote but its in the paper or one of his interviews where he says that any previous surgeries done on a player were excluded.


    Here is the quote from SI about the bulging disc.

    While it cannot be determined exactly when the unreported procedure on Manning's neck took place, it was at some point after his May 23 surgery in Chicago to correct a bulging disk

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    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    The quarterbacks in my study did quite well after this particular surgery that Peyton Manning had.
    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...P11_hot_topics

    I can't get anymore straight forward than that. Not to mention that the NFL turned to Dr. Hsu to get his opinion.

  26. #175

    Default Re: Irsay: Talking regularly with Manning about staying with team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Did I say there was a cure? No. You said they cannot renegerate nerves. If you would have actually followed the damn link I provided, which is starting to be a pretty big trend with you, you would have read this little gem.


    http://capitalregion.ynn.com/content...ic-walk-again/

    Saying there isn't a cure, right now, would be correct. Saying they can't regenerate nerves, right now, is false.



    Not to mention that you've just said that regenerative technologies has nothing to do with regenerating nerves. The whole ****ing point of regenerative research is to do just that.
    No there is a lot more to regenerative research than nerves, for example bone. That is a huge field and then there is regenerative research relating to the heart to repair damage caused by heart attacks, and then there is regenerative research related to eyes caused by macular degeneration, and regenerative research related to liver damage and kidney damage so that people don't need kidney transplants and dialysis. Do you get the point now?
    They do not regenerate nerves regardless of what you might find on the internet which might I remind you is not considered a scientific source of information. If you want science go to real journals and not some fly by night internet article. Anyone can write any nonsense on the internet. Do you have a reference as to who did the work, how reputable the information is or not? You don't get science form the internet. OK. No scientist publishes anything in a magazine or newspaper article. At least cite an article that has a link to a journal where you can see the research evidence. Otherwise your citations are equivalent to cancer cures in third world countries by quacks.
    Last edited by speakout4; 03-05-2012 at 03:17 PM.

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