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Thread: So they're running P&R's on us to get Roy out to 30 feet...

  1. #26

    Default Re: So they're running P&R's on us to get Roy out to 30 feet...

    The "aggressive show" as we're calling it I've hated all season. It never seems to really impact the play at all anyway. If you're not getting value from it, while bother coming out that high?

    All of our players do it, it's a Vogel scheme, and I think he needs to play it more straight up.

    I'd rather us letting the other team shooting a ton of 3 pointers off the pick than getting to the rim all game.
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  2. #27
    On the Vogel Wagon gummy's Avatar
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    Default Re: So they're running P&R's on us to get Roy out to 30 feet...

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Two things about some of Roy's defense last night:

    1) (Roy's fault) - in the first half, he really looked like he wasn't sure at all where to be when his man showed at the arc. A number of times he was wandering around the paint looking for someone to double. I was very concerned that a savvy offense just steps back above the FT line extended and starts getting free Defensive 3-second calls.

    He did better in the second half, but it kind of left us open to item 2:

    2) (Possibly not Roy's fault) - when Roy is left on the ball handler after the PnR, the original defender is usually unable to clear from the pick fast enough to get back and relieve Roy to get back to his own man. Getting through picks has been a huge problem for Collison the entire time he has been here - I'd swear it takes him an extra 2 seconds for whatever reason. Now, I think this is causing Roy to leave TOO early, but I think it isn't all his fault.

    I think our problem is not necessarily Roy, it is having a PG who always has to take the long way around the pick in the first place.
    These are good observations, though I think our problem is both that we don't have a point guard who can get around the pick in a timely manner and Roy is hesitant and slow with his moves. He also leans and reaches in toward the ball handler as if going for a steal far too often, which is fine if you're athletic enough to recover and get back. But Roy has always had some trouble with his balance, and much like it takes Collison extra time to get through the screen, it takes Roy extra time to recover his equilibrium and reverse his momentum. He sometimes seems to be hanging out there in space, facing away and leaning away from the basket a second or two after the ball handler is long gone. It won't solve every issue, but if I'm Vogel I tell him to stay vertical when he gets out there to defend the P&R. This is a game of seconds and I'd like to see if that would help him get back into position.

    Edit: Just noticed that MTM raised this point. That's what I get for only reading as far as the first comment I feel like responding too.
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  4. #28

    Default Re: So they're running P&R's on us to get Roy out to 30 feet...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Meaning Roy should recover from showing faster? I'm not sure what you meant.

    To the others saying Roy should just hang out closer to the basket, I agree that I don't usually mind the center getting a look out there, but... if our guard/wing goes over the pick, what stops that guy's man from just taking a comfortable 20 footer?
    Go over it quickly...I actually think if Roy wasn't in the way, DC would probably be able to recover pretty quickly, less bodies to move around.

    Honestly, I'd rather have the halfway defended 20 footer than they layup. This isn't something we're going to adequately defend with Roy, so pick your poison.

    I like the way that AJ/Lou/Foster defend the PnR, which is inevitably trapping the ball handler, but I don't think Hibbert and DC can do that.
    Last edited by Sookie; 02-16-2012 at 02:34 PM.

  5. #29
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    Default Re: So they're running P&R's on us to get Roy out to 30 feet...

    I think we have a case of Roy trying to do a little too much and he needs to get back to playing his role on defense.

  6. #30
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: So they're running P&R's on us to get Roy out to 30 feet...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Go over it quickly...I actually think if Roy wasn't in the way, DC would probably be able to recover pretty quickly, less bodies to move around.
    Have you watched DC go around screens? I mean just simple high-arc screens not being set by the opposing center, where there's no one else "in the way"?

    It's like he has to go all the way to Carmel before he comes back to his man.
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  8. #31

    Default Re: So they're running P&R's on us to get Roy out to 30 feet...

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Have you watched DC go around screens? I mean just simple high-arc screens not being set by the opposing center, where there's no one else "in the way"?

    It's like he has to go all the way to Carmel before he comes back to his man.


    Very true....but we could work on that, I think...

  9. #32
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: So they're running P&R's on us to get Roy out to 30 feet...

    You quickly see the problem not being Roy's alone when Paul is guarding the point. Paul can stick to his man, absorbing the rub of a screen and slithering back into position.

    The moment DC is chucked by a screen any momentum he has is halted, and he loses his man. Then his foot speed gets him caught up, but is it always too late. His man gets to the elbow and beyond for open lanes by slashers and shooters.

    Roy does need to hedge against shooting PGs, but DC has got to learn to lead with his shoulder when going over the screen.

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  11. #33

    Default Re: So they're running P&R's on us to get Roy out to 30 feet...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    well, I mean, just a suggestion..

    If they're sending the Center out to the three point line, why not just let Roy stay in the paint and wait for it. Often times our post players just get in the way of the guard trying to defend the PnR anyway. And in most cases, it's not like the opposing team's Center is going to do anything at the 3 point line.

    So if the PnR is coming, just have the PG try and go quickly around the screen, and have help defense from the wings waiting if DC/AJ/PG/Lance can't catch up to the opposing player. (And we'll have Roy waiting in the paint if the guard tries to go all the way in.)

    (Also, our bigs have to do a better job of calling out the screen too...I saw DC and AJ get smashed by a pick that they didn't see..)
    I agree with most of this except it starts with recognition. Our PG and Center are the backbone of our defense. Collison has to see the play unfold first and he has to talk. Hibbert has to also recognize what the defense is throwing at him. He can't step out to defend against a non-3 point threat. His job is to defend the paint. So, stay near it and defend it!

    It would help if Collison went over the screen and not under it. It also helps if our Forwards would atleast try to bring some weakside help defensive once in a while. Both DWest and Hans tend to be slow at recognizing where the help should come from. (I find this disturbing where Hansborough is concerned as he is a 4-time All American. This is definitely something he should recognize instantly! But really so should DWest.)

    Everything this team has fought for to date started going downhill once George Hill got injured. I've mentioned this in other Pacers forums; Hill reads and reacts to the defense much better than Collison. And neither AJ or Lance are ready to take on the role of "floor general". I applaud Collison's effort, but he's still young and hasn't quite figured things out defensively yet. And right now, that's a large part of the problem.

    The other side is "Where do the Pacers find instant offense?" They've played into this "team scoring" mindset and it's not a bad philosophy to employ when you really don't have "raw, head-full-of-steam, I can't be stopped, All-Star talent" on your roster. But this team collectively is still good enough to wear down most teams as long as everyone's playing minimal minutes and are scoring 10-15 ppg (from players 1 thru 6). To that, DWest was correct. This Pacers roster is deep, but one thing none of them counted on was how injuries would begin to disrupt their game plan. Again, it started with GHill, then Foster, then Collison briefly and Hans and Hibbert and now Granger. And although only Hill and Foster are the only players who have sat out for any significant duration, injuries, fatigue and now a lack of confidence has begun to really set in. So, what's the solution?

    Cease with the "team-score by proxy" scheme and put the ball in two or three player's hands and ride them until you can get all of your players back healthy. In short, somebody has got to take on the responsibility of being that Go-To guy. Somebody has got to make up his mind that he will be that player that refuses to be beaten. Somebody has got to be that player that says, "I will take this team on my shoulders and be it's version of Jeremy Lin". Otherwise, it's going to be extremely painful for this team between now and the All-Star break.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 02-16-2012 at 04:26 PM.

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  13. #34
    can't wait to see this v Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: So they're running P&R's on us to get Roy out to 30 feet...

    https://twitter.com/#!/TimDonahue8p9s

    Coach Vogel said the #Pacers worked today on clarifying and understanding assignments defensively. After watching film, he felt his team played hard last night, but missed a lot of assignments. Said Darren Collison was playing too passively defending PnR, but shared responsibility by saying his game plan was too passive. I asked about his bigs being too much in a hurry to recover when defending the PnR, Vogel said that was an example of poor execution. They need to stay with the ball, then recover. Vogel said they specifically discussed the rotation to cover the roll man, and they plan to attack the ballhandler more aggressively. Where O'Brien would vary PnR defense depending on team, Vogel says they stick to two basic approaches.

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  15. #35

    Default Re: So they're running P&R's on us to get Roy out to 30 feet...

    Pacers doing the same thing right now, but Foster and Hans are faster when going to back.

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