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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The Heat were extremely impressive last night, wow were they good.

    Pacers were bad obviously.

    The question that we are trying to get to the bottom of is what is going on with the Pacers.

    I think the easy question is what is going on - we can all see that, the difficult question is why are we playing so bad, how is this happening. I don't have the answers.

    As far as what is happening - the defense has fallen off the map and frustration has set in. I think the lack of practice time and the number of games caught up with the Pacers. Remember in the first 4 weeks of the season the Pacers were always on the low end of number of games played. But that has changed the past three weeks and also the competition has been pretty stiff lately.

    There is a very fine line between winning and losing, there is a very fine line between having a coinfident team and not having a confident team. It is easy to fall into bad habbits and very difficult to get out of losing and out of bad habbits

    I know I am throwing out platitutes.

    Bottom like I think this is temporary. But I also wonder if the pacers are really good enough to be 17-7 - that might be too much to ask. 17-7 over a full 82 game season is a 58, 59 win pace. We aren't that good. We are IMo a team that wins between 48-51 games (in a full season a team fighting for homecourt advantage in the first round) and concerned about getting out of the first found of the playoffs.
    I agree, and we can't ignore that recently our schedule has been very tough from a competition stand point. However, we desperately need to take care of the next 6 or so games, as it is one cupcake after another, and then the start of March is not very forgiving. If we struggle against these under .500 teams (think a .500 record), it's very likely that our overall record could be right at .500 after the first week and a half of March. It's not an easy schedule once you get past I think the New Orleans game.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I completely agree with this.

    As for the last part, Koufos would be great.

    Pekovic would even be better. It will never happen, but it WOULD be better.

    Koufos last night as a starter... 9 pts... 9 rebs... 5 stl... 3 bs

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Cactus Jax View Post
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    Generally I don't tend to agree with you vnzla, but with this I agree 100%. I think the league as a whole has been/was at a very crappy performance level the first month of the season, and the Pacers took advantage of that. Now that most all the players are in decent shape, teams have an idea how to gameplan and beat teams much easier and I think that's hurt the Pacers a lot, especially PG and Hibbert.

    I think at some point, either during this season or before next season, a decision is going to have to be made to keep either Paul George or Danny Granger, and to dump the other to get either PG help or a true SG. The last thing the team needs are two of the same player and it seems, at least to me, that they're trying to make Paul like Danny and it's not working at all.

    The problem is that Danny doesn't have nearly the trade value that Paul (I assume) probably would, and also sets the team back for a short while. February and March are going to be very interesting going to the trade deadline, there's a good chance they'll probably be buyers at that point as the schedule does get easier, but if things don't turn around quickly they could turn into a slight sell/change mode.

    Idk how much higher trade value PG has than DG. I think we somewhat overvalue PG a tad on this board. While he is an impressive young player, he is also VERY inconsistent and is somewhat ineffective offensively when his jumper isn't falling.

    I'm not saying DG is a GREAT player, but he would be a strong addition to any number of playoff teams looking for a perimeter threat that is capable of holding his own on the defensive end as well.

    At the end of the day however, I do agree with you. These two do not play well off of one another, and we HAVE to trade one of those players in order to get something different, whether it be a consistent scoring 2, or an ideal upgrade at the 1.

    I know a lot of people dislike Monta Ellis, but he is the type of one on one scorer that this team has desperately lacked for years. Im not advocating a DG for Monta swap, but that is the type of scorer we need to be looking for.

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  5. #54
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    At a certain level, we are freaking out over being blown out of a game we weren't guaranteed to win.

    Let's see if we bounce back and start looking better while winning games we ARE supposed to win.

    Like UB said, we were never expecting this team to be the equivalent of a 55-60 win team. We're going through a bad patch, the question is can it be corrected against the poorer competition? If we lose those games or play crappy and barely manage wins, then we can go crazy.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    I don't think each loss on an individual level bugs me too much. It just happens that they all came in a row.

    I think we should/could have won a couple at least, but each game is not a terrible loss. Just the string of losses like I said. That makes me feel a little bit better.

    This game was pathetic though.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    I would also like to mention a thing that nobody wants to bring it up but David West's defense is horrible, I remember been worried about this when we first got him, I knew he was a bad defender but he has proven to be even worse.

    DC's and Danny's defense also went back to the "old Danny" and "old DC" type of defense, just look at it this way, in our first unit we have 3 starters that are pretty bad defenders it doesn't matter how much defense we practice as long as we have those huge holes we are not going anywhere, combine that with a horrible offense and you got what you see.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I would also like to mention a thing that nobody wants to bring it up but David West's defense is horrible, I remember been worried about this when we first got him, I knew he was a bad defender but he has proven to be even worse.

    DC's and Danny's defense also went back to the "old Danny" and "old DC" type of defense, just look at it this way, in our first unit we have 3 starters that are pretty bad defenders it doesn't matter how much defense we practice as long as we have those huge holes we are not going anywhere, combine that with a horrible offense and you got what you see.
    West and DC have horrible closeout defense. But Danny is not back to "old Danny". That is just hating to hate.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Per the Panic Meter I would say that I am at a 6.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yeah ok let's ignore that the lockout didn't have anything to do with some teams not performing right, The Celtics were out of shape, the same thing with Dallas, Orlando has the Dhoward thing going on so you can beat them sometimes, The Lakers suck and The Bulls didnt have Deng, so yeah we got to beat those teams when they were down, let's see how we do now that they are back in shape and playing well.
    Oh, gee, it sure is lucky the lockout only affected all of the OTHER teams and not us......

    Also I can remind fans of other teams that they beat us without Hill so those wins don't count.

    You can't have it both ways.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Oh, gee, it sure is lucky the lockout only affected all of the OTHER teams and not us......

    Also I can remind fans of other teams that they beat us without Hill so those wins don't count.

    You can't have it both ways.
    I'm not saying that the lockout didn't affect us either, all I'm saying is that we were outplaying teams because we are a young team and he had all that energy, there is a reason why teams like Denver, Utah, Philly, were riding high for few weeks, now all those teams are coming down to earth.

    By the way I like George Hill but I don't think his lost is as big as the Bulls losing Deng or Dirk playing with one leg, huge difference, I don't think we win either one of this four games with him either and I am 100% sure that he wouldn't have made any difference yesterday either.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Dirk had a great game! And we blew them out!

    These qualifiers are madness. And never ending.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Dirk had a great game! And we blew them out!


    Forget it, he's rolling.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Dirk had a great game! And we blew them out!

    These qualifiers are madness. And never ending.
    You are right that was his first great game of the year, he was sucking pretty bad before that game.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    At a certain level, we are freaking out over being blown out of a game we weren't guaranteed to win. Let's see if we bounce back and start looking better while winning games we ARE supposed to win. Like UB said, we were never expecting this team to be the equivalent of a 55-60 win team. We're going through a bad patch, the question is can it be corrected against the poorer competition? If we lose those games or play crappy and barely manage wins, then we can go crazy.
    I agree, but something has changed. And I think it starts with coaching and individual player discipline. George's comments about overlooking the Heat? Come on! No excuse not to play hard and try to beat the crap out of them on our floor if they were really down.

    The Heat are good, but not that good that the game should have been called after the first quarter of their third away game in a row. I understand that Frank may have wanted us to shoot quick before their D had a chance to set up, but having DC drive against 3 taller defenders in the paint without giving up the ball or waiting for rebounding support is just not sound reasoning. He did this two or three times last night. Lance did the same thing, but succeeded in missing with even less defenders in place. And we need to work the ball better. Shot clock violations and rushing the shot are discipline issues. I never want to see Lance jack up another 3 point attempt. He has the lowest career 3 point field goal percentage on the team (0% I believe).

    Smashmouth defense is a type of defensive strategy that is not tied to offense when you really think about it, as some others might be. It's a way of playing. Somehow we have gone away from this, and we need to get back there to ensure that we keep beating the teams we are supposed to beat.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    So a young team with less experience didn't see any negative effects from the lockout?

    I can see clearly now the rain is gone.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    By the way I like George Hill but I don't think his lost is as big as the Bulls losing Deng or Dirk playing with one leg, huge difference, I don't think we win either one of this four games with him either and I am 100% sure that he wouldn't have made any difference yesterday either.
    I agree. This lull is more than Hill. They have lost badly and won consistently badly. We have more issues that missing our combo 6th man.

    But I think it is lack of maturation that will come about soon. But people will attribute the coming about to a weak schedule so it will be all for nothing.

    But take what you get. We did beat good teams. We did beat bad teams. We have yet to beat them both consistently with a consistent effort and flow.

    We are not there yet.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    You are right that was his first great game of the year, he was sucking pretty bad before that game.
    Which has nothing to do with the fact that he played great against us.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by joeyd View Post
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    I agree, but something has changed. And I think it starts with coaching and individual player discipline. George's comments about overlooking the Heat? Come on! No excuse not to play hard and try to beat the crap out of them on our floor if they were really down.

    Smashmouth defense is a type of defensive strategy that is not tied to offense when you really think about it, as some others might be. It's a way of playing. Somehow we have gone away from this, and we need to get back there to ensure that we keep beating the teams we are supposed to beat.
    You know what Smashmouth offense would be? Paul George leading his defender into a bone shattering pick under the basket by our Bigs, while he comes out the other side free for an open jumper. I wonder why Vogel isn't putting some of that into the offense instead of having our big slow guys come out and set PNR at the 3pt line.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat



    1. I don't think Roy is playing as bad (at least offensively) as everyone is saying. I think we are just having a harder time feeding it in to him. He missed a few shots in the last couple games that he usually makes pretty well, but other than that it just looked like we couldn't or wouldn't get it in to him.
    2. Ball movement. They are trying to pass and that's great, but it just takes sooooo loooooong. We need Pass - Pass - Pass - Score, but we are getting Pass - Look Around - Pass - Think about shot - Look around - Pass - Chase opponent on fast break. You're supposed to know what you are going to do with the ball before you ever put your hands up to receive it.
    3. Crash offensive boards. Send two guys to board every time, and 3 drop back. That's at the very least. If they could tighten up their transition defense they could do 3 board / 2 drop except against teams with high quality 3pt shooters.
    4. Our.... well i was going to say defense but really I'll just say that our whole game looks slow. If Vogel believes in his bench he needs to tell everyone to use up more energy. They are being ridiculously conservative with it as if the starters were expecting to stay in the game 42+ minutes. Run the dickens out of your opponent. The only thing that can stop lebron james is lebron james. If he doesn't get a chance to take a nap on the D-side of the court maybe he won't be so energetic on the O-side. (I know. I know. The guy is an amazing athlete and could probably play 48 minutes sprinting, but lets at least try it out. )

    So... should I expect Larry to hire me as an assistant coach first or should he just go ahead and give me Vogel's job right away? Either way... I'm easy.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    You know what Smashmouth offense would be? Paul George leading his defender into a bone shattering pick under the basket by our Bigs, while he comes out the other side free for an open jumper. I wonder why Vogel isn't putting some of that into the offense instead of having our big slow guys come out and set PNR at the 3pt line.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    There is another option IMO as well.


    I think Danny get's mentally affected playing against LeBron.
    I mentioned this before the game. Now there's no doubt in my mind Danny's scared (yes i said scared) of LeBron. He doesn't want any part of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    It was also good to see Lance be the mature player while Howard got himself ejected, now if he could just make a jumpshot(i still expect his shot is better than we have seen in games to this point).
    I was glad to see this too. Howard made himself look like a real jack ***, and when he ran up on Lance the second time I thought something bad was about to happen. Give the kid credit for acting like the vet in that situation.

    One thing I am worried about was after Lance made his first basket, which was an and 1, Dahntay walked over to him to give him low 5 and Lance ignored it. At the time I got the feeling it was kinda disrespectful to Dahntay. Afterwards I saw Price talking to him before free throw attempt. Later on he seemed back to normal giving the obligatory five after Price's free throw. I'm just wondering if anyone else saw this (that's if anyone was still there)? I'm sure his emotions were just riding high after being attacked for no reason by the bum that is Juwan Howard.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Yep.



    I'm wondering if team chemistry began to slowly erode as the other players stopped getting the ball as regularly in the spots they like.
    What? You don't think D. West likes running the pick and pop and catching the ball behind him or at his ankles.


    Quote Originally Posted by JEM View Post
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    I question whether you watch any games at all if you put the " collapse " on Hansbrough. He has played far better D than West this year and has been the Pacers most willing help defender so much so that he ends up being the one looking bad because often times noone rotates behind him.

    In fact I will not give your posts the time of day.
    It's clear he's not a fan of Lance or Tyler. I wouldn't take his posts regarding them too seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    West and DC have horrible closeout defense. But Danny is not back to "old Danny". That is just hating to hate.
    Yes he is. He's been turrible for quite some time. Looking like the old Danny to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Oh, gee, it sure is lucky the lockout only affected all of the OTHER teams and not us......

    Also I can remind fans of other teams that they beat us without Hill so those wins don't count.

    You can't have it both ways.
    He's got a point though. Those good teams we beat were either missing players or struggling at the time. I'm interested to see how we stack up against some of them now that they've found their rhythm.

    A lot of people expected teams like us (Den, Philly) to get out to a fast start.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    He's got a point though. Those good teams we beat were either missing players or struggling at the time. I'm interested to see how we stack up against some of them now that they've found their rhythm.
    Which of our players being out does it take for us to be considered to be "missing players"? Are we considered to be "struggling at the time" or since it is the Pacers is it "we've lost 4 in a row so we must really suck and were faking all those wins"?

    It's like every win we've had the other team has an excuse, and every loss we've had there is no circumstance whatsoever to explain it other than suckage. Come on, now.

    We're a 45-50 win team in an 82-game season. That translates to 36-40 games out of 66. We're almost halfway there having played nearly all our away games AND still with 38 games left to play. If we go .500 the rest of the way we're within expectations.

    Note - that means if we lose half our remaining games, we'll still be within expectations. That means that if we have a 3-4 game losing streak for every 3-4 game winning streak we'll still be within expectations.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Danny faking an injury to get out of the game?
    Danny scared of Lebron?

    Come on people, you are really reaching. He was clearly limping over to the bench. It was a pretty futile game at that point, could he have come back? Maybe, but I'd rather hope he plays against cleveland.

    Pretty hard to play aggressively against Lebron when a clean poke on the ball results in a shooting foul. So is he scared or just not wanting to pick up 2 quick fouls because he breathed in the King's personal space.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Oh, gee, it sure is lucky the lockout only affected all of the OTHER teams and not us......
    I'm not sure his theory is correct, but I think it's plausible in the sense that our defense-only focus at the beginning of the year was a strategic advantage until a month or so in, when our opponents finally got their offensive kinks worked out.
    .

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Danny faking an injury to get out of the game?
    Danny scared of Lebron?

    Come on people, you are really reaching. He was clearly limping over to the bench. It was a pretty futile game at that point, could he have come back? Maybe, but I'd rather hope he plays against cleveland.

    Pretty hard to play aggressively against Lebron when a clean poke on the ball results in a shooting foul. So is he scared or just not wanting to pick up 2 quick fouls because he breathed in the King's personal space.
    Actually Sam Amico (Cavs. beat writer) is saying Danny is out tonight.


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