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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Hansbrough on ESPN Radio yesterday, sorry if its been posted.
    http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7572560

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Well, righting the ship needs to start tonight and be clearly underway by ASB given the alleged friendly schedule. Lots of good points in this thread. Here are ones I agree with and some I would add.

    -Our depth was greatly exaggerated
    -We benefited to a degree early from some friendly breaks and ineffective opponent offense post-lockout
    -We tooted our own horns publicly too much on a few occasions in post-game celebrations in relatively meaningless early season games & generally in broadcasting how "smash mouth" and "tough guy" we are
    - Our collection of talent as a whole is generally slow and our bigs are athletically limited, both of which are starting to be exposed
    - Our PG play is just not what we need (more dependable defense and distribution to scorers); not that DC hasn't done a reasonable job with what he's got, but it's just not what we need

    Cavs game is no gimmie. I will accept a L if the team looks like it has a heart. That is all.
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  3. #28
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    - Our PG play is just not what we need (more dependable defense and distribution to scorers); not that DC hasn't done a reasonable job with what he's got, but it's just not what we need
    Yep.

    I think you've got to factor in the correlation between this downslide and George Hill's absence.

    It took a few games after Hill's departure before we started losing bad. I'm wondering if the bigger effect was not losing George's play on either end, but losing his ability to pass and feed the post. He is not great at it, but he is decent, and compared to Collison, fantastic.

    I'm wondering if team chemistry began to slowly erode as the other players stopped getting the ball as regularly in the spots they like.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    we are nowhere near contenders, but who talked us into being one?
    That's the problem, I think. Some people thought that we were contenders when we won Minny and Dallas B2B in their homes. The "Contenders or Pretenders" talk had some people believing this as well.

    Also, remember when some people whined when the media gave us no love and when we played with empty stands despite being undefeated at home? The media started giving us love and the Fieldhouse started to fill with people (for various reasons). What happened? We started to lose at home.

    Remember when we were saying that we are the league's best kept secret? Guess what. If you say that in public, it's not a secret anymore.

    Teams started adjusting to us. They started taking us seriously. At the same time, our players were either tired or overconfident and stopped giving their full effort. Teams started outhustling us. And, of course, we started losing.

    That's the key issue, I think. We were dubbed "contenders" and this brought negative results to our team. That's why a lot of people here are heavily disappointed. I doubt that a similar losing streak would bring these reactions last year when our goal was to play .500 ball.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Danny Granger rolled his ego at the end of the 1st quarter went to the locker room and did not return. His ego is day to day at this point.
    You can't blame DG for last night. He tripped and fell into that lifeboat that took him to the locker room. Totally not his fault.


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  7. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I'm leaning towards this and the notion that we have a deep bench was "fool's gold".....we are only 6 deep.
    I'ts only Fool's Gold to the ones that thought it was Gold. I knew it wasn't gold fool...

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I have to start wondering about four things:

    1) Are many of our players just mentally weak?
    2) Did something happen with our locker room chemistry?
    3) Is this the coaching staff?
    4) Is it mostly just '**** happens' and nothing big actually happened to cause these changes?

    I'm not the quickest to point to number one, and I don't believe in going there just because players have bad games, but when there's just not much sense of fight, I start to wonder more.
    Last year, after the coaching change, the team hit a string of loses that people blamed on various happenings within the team. Are there any similarities from that time period to the one the team is going through now?

    I'm not trying to point to anything in particular, I'm just trying to remember. Have substitution patterns changed to be similar to that previous losing string? Is the injury situation similar? Similar strength of opponents?

    What was done to pull out of it last year? Or did it just correct itself?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    I saw Danny come down on that ankle, I don't think it is anklegoprain at all. He looked to me like he was at least trying out there.

    What I think has happened is that the team has lost its ability to come back after being smacked in the face hard to start with. If things don't go their way (shooting 26% in the first quarter, some calls not being made or being made the other direction) they just completely lose focus and begin to stagger around like the walking dead.

    Essentially, ANYTHING that takes them out of the flow of their game is becoming fatal, and this is an attribute of a young team with a young coach who is missing one of their floor leaders - it is why the loss of Hill seems to be a wash in the box score but is making a difference on the floor.

    I maintain the hope that, just like getting some FTs can help a shooter get back into rhythm, some wins will get the guys back into the right mindset.

    On the other hand, 26%? 26 FREAKING PERCENT? By the time you finish a quarter of that you are done, done, done - especially when you can't hold your opponents below 60% in the second and third quarters. Players on this team need to hit the hardwood at 10 am and shoot for 2 hours, have lunch, hit the weight room for a normal workout or whatever, then come back out and shoot for another 2 hours. Just shoot - no plays, no walkthroughs, no film, no fooling around. This is getting to the realm of stupid.
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  11. #34
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    To simplify the team so far this season, it appears that as Roy goes, so goes this team.

    As he has in years past, he started the year focused, tough, and was a double double waiting to happen. And the team played well.

    About the time Roy started getting more national media attention for a potential All-Star nod, his play diminished. I said in jest in one game thread that he should give back his All-Star nomination, but now I say it with a bit more seriousness. Meaning... play like an All-Star (at least like a fringe one), or don't call yourself one. Right now he is playing like he did for long stretches of the past couple of years when he was not effective. I was hoping this would be the year this didn't happen to him, but the season is arcing in that same downward slope again.

    And unfortunately, as Roy goes, so goes the team.

  12. #35
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    If you guys think our early success was due in part to playing crappy performing teams due to the lock out you all dont' watch basketball enough. This team in the course of a month beat LA, Orlando, Chicago, Boston x2, and Dallas. Beat them all on the Road too. That is not a fluke. In both our Denver and Memphis losses we were in a position to win the game late in the 4th. We just didn't make the plays necessary to win. Thats what happens in this league. So a 4 game losing streak looks terrible. But we only looked liked a 4 game loser in 2 of those losses. We got handled by ATL, but we bounced back decently over the next 2 just couldn't get some shots to fall or we didn't make the defensive plays to win. Its not like we have been getting blown out in all 4 games.

    People just take a step back from the ledge.

    Look the key is George Hill, Defense is infectious. We are missing one of our primary defensive playmakers. When George Hill is getting deflections and steals, PG and Granger gets in on the act as well. Players can afford to gamble a bit more when you have a guy like Hill who isn't going to get burnt every on every screen. He makes DC look better by association because all the sudden you have 2 guys you can throw at the opposing Point.

    Vogel has been trying to compensate by scoring more and playing the starters more. Its just not working. Look Paul George isn't hitting 7 3's in a game again anytime soon, and i can't believe Vogel is content to let him camp out on the 3 point line. But thats why our future star is shooting 30% right now. It couldn't hurt to have PG cut to the rim after feeding Roy in the post. The defenders are looking off George all game long to be ready to double Roy when we makes his move.

    The way this team plays is so asinine sometimes....
    Last edited by graphic-er; 02-15-2012 at 09:41 AM.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    It's looking pretty clear to me that Roy is still the same Roy we knew last year. Not that that's the worst thing in the world, just that it's pretty clear he's not worth max money and he is still very prone to the same emotional funks and roller coaster up and downs we've gotten so used to. However, he's due to start up swinging at some point if he follows his usually pattern so hopefully he does it for all these really bad teams we have coming up.

    In other words, we're still looking for that "it" guy. I guess Paul George is the next up to bat, but I'm not sure I'm really get that vibe from him either. He seems like he's more scheduled to become another Granger. Which, again, isn't a bad thing, but there is clearly a reason so many of us have been pushing for a guy like Rondo if he were to actually be available to us.

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  16. #37
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    If you guys think our early success was due in part to playing crappy performing teams due to the lock out you all dont' watch basketball enough. This team in the course of a month beat LA, Orlando, Chicago, Boston x2, and Dallas. Beat them all on the Road too. That is not a fluke. In both our Denver and Memphis losses we were in a position to win the game late in the 4th. We just didn't make the plays necessary to win. Thats what happens in this league. So a 4 game losing streak looks terrible. But we only looked liked a 4 game loser in 2 of those losses. We got handled by ATL, but we bounced back decently over the next 2 just couldn't get some shots to fall or we didn't make the defensive plays to win. Its not like we have been getting blown out in all 4 games.

    People just take a step back from the ledge.

    Look the key is George Hill, Defense is infectious. We are missing one of our primary defensive playmakers. When George Hill is getting deflections and steals, PG and Granger gets in on the act as well. Players can afford to gamble a bit more when you have a guy like Hill who isn't going to get burnt every on every screen. He makes DC look better by association because all the sudden you have 2 guys you can throw at the opposing Point.

    Vogel has been trying to compensate by scoring more and playing the starters more. Its just not working. Look Paul George isn't hitting 7 3's in a game again anytime soon, and i can't believe Vogel is content to let him camp out on the 3 point line. But thats why our future star is shooting 30% right now. It couldn't hurt to have PG cut to the rim after feeding Roy in the post. The defenders are looking off George all game long to be ready to double Roy when we makes his move.

    The way this team plays is so asinine sometimes....
    I must be living in bizaro world.

    Graphic-er is the voice of reason? (no offense)

    Great great post and I wish I could thank it 100 times.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    It's looking pretty clear to me that Roy is still the same Roy we knew last year. Not that that's the worst thing in the world, just that it's pretty clear he's not worth max money and he is still very prone to the same emotional funks and roller coaster up and downs we've gotten so used to.

    In other words, we're still looking for that "it" guy. I guess Paul George is the next up to bat, but I'm not sure I'm really get that vibe from him either. He seems like he's more scheduled to become another Granger. Which, again, isn't a bad thing, but there is clearly a reason so many of us have been pushing for a guy like Rondo if he were to actually be available to us.
    It's nice to hear someone else that has this same outlook on PG. I just don't see him becoming more than a Granger either. He already said that is who he looks up to the most to help him with his game, which might explain why he is so happy to pull up for jumpshots instead of driving to the basket. I know he is only in his 2nd year and he is still learning, but I look at rookies like Marshon Brooks and they just know how to score and get to the basket.

    Every time PG has a good game it is because he is hitting threes, which isn't a reliable scoring method when your 6'10" and you have a huge size advantage over anyone guarding you. Learn to POST UP. Against the Bulls he had Rip guarding him and didn't post up once.

    This post is not meant to be a "rag on" PG, its more of I really like him and I hate to see all that potential become another role player.

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  19. #39
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    The reality is that last year we were not nearly as bad as JOB lead us to believe.

    This year and half of last year we have learned that we are not nearly as smash mouth as Vogel would like us to believe.

    We are a middle ground team that has the talent to compete with an upper tier team. But we lack the consistency, maturation, and fortitude to sustain our play.

    It takes so much more than just changing the roster and coaching staff. And before this season is over with we will have another period of "this is the 3 best team in the conference". But the reality is we are just young with above average talent. That is a recipe for games like this and Utah.


    Roy has not been the same since DHoward schooled him. It was well before the All-Star nod that Roy was slipping. He is tired. He is slow. He is near 2nd year Roy at this point.

    We still have some changes, and I am not certain those will happen this year. Small market teams not utilizing top 5 draft picks need more than just 3 years to compete and get out of cap-hell.

    As a fan I am pissed. As an objective fan of NBA basketball I am not surprised.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    I think all this started about the time the coaching staff started talking about opening up the offense some. Trying to get the Pacers to score freely, and they don't have the ability to play up-and-down basketball, and then turn it on defensively all at the same time.

    And they don't have the ability to score freely. That's for sure.
    Last edited by Since86; 02-15-2012 at 10:02 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Perhaps many of you didn't watch until the end, or maybe it was just garbage time. But I was sort of happy watching PG looking for his shot late in the game against Miami.

    I also think that this year Miami is just that good. They are destroying everyone.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    No doubt this Heat team is better than last year. For the Heat to get to the finals last year it was more of lack of competition than them being that good.

    In fact I think 03 Pistons would have beaten them last year. Also I think the Jason Kidd's nets could have beaten them.

    But this year I don't think any Eastern Conference champion of the last 15 years could have beaten them in last 10 games.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And they don't have the ability to score.
    Fixed
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  24. #44
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I just don’t want to add to what I’m sure is already an overwhelming display of negativity and doom and gloom.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    The reason is Hill for the most part, when West goes out, Tyler in, our defense just collapses completely, he can not stay with his man, he's like a kid that sees something interesting everywhere but where he is supposed to be, he drifts over to help, so bad he set a screen for the opponent and yes that is by accident, he could not set a decent screen if he really tried it, his p&r is horrible to say the least (he's already left his man before the ballhandler even passed his screen), argh i better shut up. Hill's defense mostly "hides" that part, now it is out in the open.
    I question whether you watch any games at all if you put the " collapse " on Hansbrough. He has played far better D than West this year and has been the Pacers most willing help defender so much so that he ends up being the one looking bad because often times noone rotates behind him.

    In fact I will not give your posts the time of day.

  26. #46
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    JEM I am grateful for your gesture, you made my day, I actually broke a smile.

    he's so willing to help that he sets screens for the opponents, let's his own man walk and scrambles over way to late seeing another basket scored.
    Not watch? not missed a game in years, LP broadband does that for you,staying up every night unless west coast, I watch those in delay.

    How many games did you cheer for Tyler yourself this year?

    You damn well missed the game last night, "good help D"
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    It was a disappointing effort, but Miami has three players who are superior to any player we have on our roster. They would absolutely bulldoze us in a playoff series. You can't really expect to compete with a team when it has three players who are head and shoulders better than any player you have. As another poster mentioned, our team is much more suited to compete with Chicago than it is Miami.

    Miami is easily the best team in the league and it's not even close, IMHO. The only way they don't win it all this year is if they have a mental meltdown.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    If you guys think our early success was due in part to playing crappy performing teams due to the lock out you all dont' watch basketball enough. This team in the course of a month beat LA, Orlando, Chicago, Boston x2, and Dallas. Beat them all on the Road too.
    Yeah ok let's ignore that the lockout didn't have anything to do with some teams not performing right, The Celtics were out of shape, the same thing with Dallas, Orlando has the Dhoward thing going on so you can beat them sometimes, The Lakers suck and The Bulls didnt have Deng, so yeah we got to beat those teams when they were down, let's see how we do now that they are back in shape and playing well.

  29. #49
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    The Heat were extremely impressive last night, wow were they good.

    Pacers were bad obviously.

    The question that we are trying to get to the bottom of is what is going on with the Pacers.

    I think the easy question is what is going on - we can all see that, the difficult question is why are we playing so bad, how is this happening. I don't have the answers.

    As far as what is happening - the defense has fallen off the map and frustration has set in. I think the lack of practice time and the number of games caught up with the Pacers. Remember in the first 4 weeks of the season the Pacers were always on the low end of number of games played. But that has changed the past three weeks and also the competition has been pretty stiff lately.

    There is a very fine line between winning and losing, there is a very fine line between having a coinfident team and not having a confident team. It is easy to fall into bad habbits and very difficult to get out of losing and out of bad habbits

    I know I am throwing out platitutes.

    Bottom like I think this is temporary. But I also wonder if the pacers are really good enough to be 17-7 - that might be too much to ask. 17-7 over a full 82 game season is a 58, 59 win pace. We aren't that good. We are IMo a team that wins between 48-51 games (in a full season a team fighting for homecourt advantage in the first round) and concerned about getting out of the first found of the playoffs.

  30. #50
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Can't stand the Heat

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yeah ok let's ignore that the lockout didn't have anything to do with some teams not performing right, The Celtics were out of shape, the same thing with Dallas, Orlando has the Dhoward thing going on so you can beat them sometimes, The Lakers suck and The Bulls didnt have Deng, so yeah we got to beat those teams when they were down, let's see how we do now that they are back in shape and playing well.
    Generally I don't tend to agree with you vnzla, but with this I agree 100%. I think the league as a whole has been/was at a very crappy performance level the first month of the season, and the Pacers took advantage of that. Now that most all the players are in decent shape, teams have an idea how to gameplan and beat teams much easier and I think that's hurt the Pacers a lot, especially PG and Hibbert.

    I think at some point, either during this season or before next season, a decision is going to have to be made to keep either Paul George or Danny Granger, and to dump the other to get either PG help or a true SG. The last thing the team needs are two of the same player and it seems, at least to me, that they're trying to make Paul like Danny and it's not working at all.

    The problem is that Danny doesn't have nearly the trade value that Paul (I assume) probably would, and also sets the team back for a short while. February and March are going to be very interesting going to the trade deadline, there's a good chance they'll probably be buyers at that point as the schedule does get easier, but if things don't turn around quickly they could turn into a slight sell/change mode.
    "It's just unfortunate that we've been penalized so much this year and nothing has happened to the Pistons, the Palace or the city of Detroit," he said. "It's almost like it's always our fault. The league knows it. They should be ashamed of themselves to let the security be as lax as it is around here."

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