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Thread: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    I was just listening to Michael Grady on 1070 and he mentioned this play, the one where Lebron stole the ball and Lance made some halfhearted attempt at a swipe then Lebron made the and 1 on DJones. He said that DJones looked over to Vogel and asked to be taken out of the game.

    Grady kind of defended Dahntay because no one was giving any effort whatsoever, but I dunno about that.

    Did any of you guys see that?
    Did the mention that James took 4 steps on that play as well?
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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  3. #102

    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    Did the mention that James took 4 steps on that play as well?
    Right, that sucks and all. Boo on the refs blah blah.

    What I find more upsetting is that DJones asked to be taken out of the game because his teammates weren't playing hard or maybe cause the refs weren't calling the game right. Whatever reason, it's not good.

  4. #103
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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    So Roy and Paul are the reason we suck?
    Their slump is a big factor, yes. This hurt us last year too. When they get Roy going a lot of good things flow from that.

    OTOH, we now have West which gives you the ability to switch looks/attacks. Where were Collison and Danny to pick up the slack during this stretch?


    Frankly the biggest problem I see is UNFORCED TOs on OFFENSE. What's with fumbling the ball away randomly for the easy score the other way? That's where you really get concerns regarding effort.

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  6. #104
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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    MIA vs. MIA. MIA won. Pacers were MIA. Missing In Action.

    When is the trade deadline? Could there be rumors about moves that are about to be made that have destroyed the chemistry?

  7. #105

    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Edit: About the point that RLeWorm brought up about Granger. Even if he faked the injury, I'd have no problem with that.
    I hope you don't really mean that. He barely tweaked his ankle and then quit on the team. This is supposed to be our leader? He's so far from smash mouth despite what he and others want to believe. If he's not out for a week I just lost a little respect for him. Did he even show back up on the bench?

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    If that's truly your attitude, I pity you.
    I think he was joking...


    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    Right, that sucks and all. Boo on the refs blah blah.

    What I find more upsetting is that DJones asked to be taken out of the game because his teammates weren't playing hard or maybe cause the refs weren't calling the game right. Whatever reason, it's not good.
    Come on, you said he made a half hearted attempt to get back. He sprinted back and caused LeBron to travel. It's up to the refs to make the call. What'd you and Dahntay expect him to do there? If he wanted to be pulled because of Lance's effort on that play I think he was wrong.

    I do give Jones a lot of credit for last night though. He was probably the only player that played well, and the only one that gave the effort it takes to win games like these. Everyone else was kinda just out there. I assume he was disgusted that his teammates weren't "bringing it" and rightfully so.

  8. #106

    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    Come on, you said he made a half hearted attempt to get back. He sprinted back and caused LeBron to travel. It's up to the refs to make the call. What'd you and Dahntay expect him to do there? If he wanted to be pulled because of Lance's effort on that play I think he was wrong.

    I do give Jones a lot of credit for last night though. He was probably the only player that played well, and the only one that gave the effort it takes to win games like these. Everyone else was kinda just out there. I assume he was disgusted that his teammates weren't "bringing it" and rightfully so.
    I'm not criticizing anyone here but DJones for asking to get taken out of the game. Don't you think that's messed up? Plus I am just going on what Michael Grady said... who does have really good seats and all, but I was really wondering if anyone else saw it.

  9. #107
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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Roy is making chernoybl look like a small melt down.

    I don't think Roy is mailing it in with his all star appearance or his contract, I think he's just the same guy he's always been and that is he's a bit weak mentally, he gets down himself easily.
    However, I think he's too crucial for the team to be not on the team... This is something that we are going to have to live with, and in the event that Roy is having confidence issues, we need a very talented backup 5 who can play with his back to be basket and have the offense run through him. Jeff and Lou don't have that ability, and Tyler doesn't either.

  10. #108

    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    I was just listening to Michael Grady on 1070 and he mentioned this play, the one where Lebron stole the ball and Lance made some halfhearted attempt at a swipe then Lebron made the and 1 on DJones. He said that DJones looked over to Vogel and asked to be taken out of the game.

    Grady kind of defended Dahntay because no one was giving any effort whatsoever, but I dunno about that.

    Did any of you guys see that?
    It might have been a "I'm getting angry so please take me out before I do something stupid." request. The fact that Lance made a lazy play before might not have anything to do with it. (Especially if Lebron had been "talking" the whole night.)

    This right now, is about all the starters.

    Tyler and AJ have played pretty well the past four games, Lance is bringing energy, Dahntay is consistently solid, we've had Jeff two of the four games. The bench is actually playing as well as it has been all season (other than the Hill/AJ lineup). The Pacers were winning in spite of the bench. The only thing that really hurts is that if PG was off, Hill was easily able to replace him and it was likely production wasn't going to fall off too much. (Or might actually improve.) But that really hasn't lost us games.

    The starters, every single one of them, are to blame in this.

    DC has gotten lazy on offense. He makes silly and lazy passes. He's taking quick shots. Reverting back to the DC of last year at times. He's still not a good defender, although I still say improved from last season.

    PG is just off defensively. I don't know why, that used to be his bread and butter, but he's just not focused on the defensive end.

    Roy looks like he's down on himself again. Although he hasn't been getting the ball as much, when he does get it, he's missing his hook shot and he's not fighting hard for position nor is he fighting for rebounds.

    I think for these three, it's just a "mental toughness" issue. DC's been having to play a lot of minutes the entire season, and it's catching up to him. Similarly for PG and Roy. Although they are young, they are playing a lot of games, in a way I don't know that they were mentally prepared for.

    Danny and West...I'm a little less forgiving.

    I have consistently said I don't think Lance is a good player or quite frankly, even decent. He's proven to me he's pretty good in certain areas, but not even that he should be getting consistent playing time for any reason other than development. However, I have been more than impressed by the energy and effort he brings, particularly to the defensive end. He's not good on defense, at all. But he sure as heck tries. And because of that effort, he sometimes makes up for mistakes, poor fundamentals or physical liabilities, and the Pacers get a stop out of it. And you know what, all you can ask for a player on defense is to put in a good effort. So despite the fact that he's a liability, I'm never irritated by him defensively. Because I know he's giving it his best, he just has some flaws (some that can be fixed, and others that can't.).

    If Danny and David were putting half as much effort into defense as Lance is, we win at least one of these past four games. I've said over and over again we're going to need to give David a break this season, because he's recovering from a knee injury. And if I thought he was struggling for physical reasons, I wouldn't mention it. But I don't think so. I think he, like Danny, are putting their energy into the offensive end, and neglecting the defense. They're both being lazy, whether it's not bothering to rotate, not paying attention to a player constantly making a backdoor cut, flat out getting in the way of the guard who is trying to defend the PnR etc..They aren't getting a lot of the blame in the team's struggles, but I feel like they're the biggest issue.

    These two are the leaders on this team. They're the vets. And they're putting a half hearted effort (barely) into defense. What does that tell PG, Roy, and DC - who seem to all be following their lead. Maybe part of the reason Lance is out there putting in such an effort is because Dahntay is out there with him.

    We need to get back to the smashmouth, offensive rebounding, defensive mindset we had before. And it starts with Danny and David.
    Last edited by Sookie; 02-15-2012 at 02:56 PM.

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  12. #109

    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    It might have been a "I'm getting angry so please take me out before I do something stupid." request.
    I was actually thinking about that when I was watching the game. As a fan, there are some times last night when I caught myself thinking, "Man, if I were down there, I'd be doing something that would surely get me a tech or two." To the team's credit, nothing like that happened.

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  14. #110

    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    I'm not criticizing anyone here but DJones for asking to get taken out of the game. Don't you think that's messed up? Plus I am just going on what Michael Grady said... who does have really good seats and all, but I was really wondering if anyone else saw it.
    I didn't see it, but my post in the odd thoughts thread might explain it. Jones seems like a big brother to Lance, and he might have felt disrespected by him earlier in the game. After Lance's turnover Dahntay might have been fed up with him. I hope that's not the case, but it's a possibility.

  15. #111

    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Great post Sookie... we're gonna have to agree to disagree with the Lance/AJ defense debate, but the rest of your post is spot on IMO.

  16. #112
    pacer fan since 88-89 Mr_Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    After the pacers got down by 10 I knew it was over. The only thing that kept me there was Budweiser draft beer that calmed me down from **** mode. I still ended up leaving halfway through the 4th. Just a horrible display of play from the blue & gold.
    Help us Paul George......you're our only hope

  17. #113
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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    They gave up 50% shooting and got badly outrebounded in total (partly due to the ratio of OFF vs DEF chances due to FG% differences).

    Meanwhile the 43% shooting for the Pacers isn't exactly abnormal.


    But the Heat's cruise control for the Pacers was identical to the last 4 games as Bill suggests...

    Lebron MPG - 33, 30, 33, 33
    Wade - 31, 24, 28, 24
    Bosh - 34, 32, 30, 26

    All 3 played 6-7 more minutes in the loss to Orlando to begin their road trip, for comparison. They all will push into 40 minutes if it's a tight game.
    Again, keep in mind that I am in no way saying the Pacers played defense WELL.

    However, Miami has a 48.5% FG% for the season. Getting up an extra 1.5% in this game doesn't mean the Pacers completely blew chunks on defense.

    By the same token, I think the deflation from shooting so badly in the 1st quarter finally knocked the Pacers on their cans. Not being able to get offensive rebounds led to some of the easy Miami points (well, easier, none of Miami's points were particularly hard). The energy leaked out like pi$$ through a rusty bucket.

    All I'm trying to say is that people fixate on a mantra - defense "won us" the earlier games where our shooting was bad, and so therefore an inability to win while shooting badly must be due to horrible defense. It isn't that simple - basically our offense dug us into a hole that nothing short of stellar defense was going to get us out of. Playing generally poor defense certainly wasn't going to do it.

    Defense can't win games unless you actually score more than the other team. A lack of it when combined with bad offense can make you lose games by a bigger margin than you might normally.

    The thing that started this whole gripe on my part was the insinuation that we had somehow lost our defensive focus due to concentrating solely on offense. To which I still say, "whut?"
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  18. #114
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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    I hope you don't really mean that. He barely tweaked his ankle and then quit on the team. This is supposed to be our leader? He's so far from smash mouth despite what he and others want to believe. If he's not out for a week I just lost a little respect for him. Did he even show back up on the bench?
    This is Danny, who has played through some serious stuff. If he is out for even ONE game I don't see how people can complain that he is goldbricking.

    As far as not coming back to the bench, could it perhaps be the ankle was being worked on and kept elevated in order that he might be able to play tonight? Oh, no, guess that's not possible, he was pouting, no medical reason ever for someone with an ankle injury to stay in the training room to prep for a game the next night, sorry for even bringing it up.
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  20. #115

    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    This is Danny, who has played through some serious stuff. If he is out for even ONE game I don't see how people can complain that he is goldbricking.

    As far as not coming back to the bench, could it perhaps be the ankle was being worked on and kept elevated in order that he might be able to play tonight? Oh, no, guess that's not possible, he was pouting, no medical reason ever for someone with an ankle injury to stay in the training room to prep for a game the next night, sorry for even bringing it up.
    If you've ever severely sprained an ankle you'd know that you don't walk off the court like Danny did last night. You do what Hill and Hibbert did and cry like a baby for a few minutes.

    Him not coming back to bench left a bad taste in my mouth after what I've seen from Roy this year coming back after a sprain and a broken nose. Add that to the fact that I felt coming into the game Danny was scared of LeBron, and that he checked out mentally the game before against him in Miami.

    My post might have been over the top, but I stand by my opinion that unless Danny's foot is broke and he's out for a while he should have made it back to the bench.

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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    If you've ever severely sprained an ankle you'd know that you don't walk off the court like Danny did last night.
    That's just false.

  22. #117

    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    That's just false.
    That's my experience unless it's just a tweak. Maybe Hill, Hibbert, and I are just a bunch of sissies then.

  23. #118
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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    If you've ever severely sprained an ankle you'd know that you don't walk off the court like Danny did last night. You do what Hill and Hibbert did and cry like a baby for a few minutes.

    Him not coming back to bench left a bad taste in my mouth after what I've seen from Roy this year coming back after a sprain and a broken nose. Add that to the fact that I felt coming into the game Danny was scared of LeBron, and that he checked out mentally the game before against him in Miami.

    My post might have been over the top, but I stand by my opinion that unless Danny's foot is broke and he's out for a while he should have made it back to the bench.


    I just don't see how anyone can ever say Danny isn't tough or plays through pain.

    I am probably at fault here because I was trying to be funny with my Danny's sprained ego in my odd thoughts post.

    But I want to make certain everyone is clear, under no circumstance do I beleive for one second that Danny Granger pretended he was injured so he didn't have to come back.


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  24. #119

    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I just don't see how anyone can ever say Danny isn't tough or plays through pain.

    I am probably at fault here because I was trying to be funny with my Danny's sprained ego in my odd thoughts post.

    But I want to make certain everyone is clear, under no circumstance do I beleive for one second that Danny Granger pretended he was injured so he didn't have to come back.
    I love Danny Granger. In no way am I saying I don't respect him or that he a faked an injury. I just feel that if it was only a tweak he should of made it back to the bench to get embarrassed along with the rest of his teammates.

    Anyway he may be hurt a lot worse than we know. If that's the case then I'll apologize.
    Last edited by CJ Jones; 02-15-2012 at 09:52 PM.

  25. #120

    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    If you've ever severely sprained an ankle you'd know that you don't walk off the court like Danny did last night. You do what Hill and Hibbert did and cry like a baby for a few minutes.

    Him not coming back to bench left a bad taste in my mouth after what I've seen from Roy this year coming back after a sprain and a broken nose. Add that to the fact that I felt coming into the game Danny was scared of LeBron, and that he checked out mentally the game before against him in Miami.

    My post might have been over the top, but I stand by my opinion that unless Danny's foot is broke and he's out for a while he should have made it back to the bench.
    This is completely incorrect. I've sprained my ankle multiple times and fractured it as well. Even when I fractured it I was able to walk on it till I got to the hospital and elevated it. To be honest I've sprained my ankle so much the pain doesn't even bother me so you can't use Danny's reaction to pain to judge him.

    Not to mention he ran down the court to try to defend Lebron on a bum ankle. Danny has played against Lebron for the last 7+ years and I've never seen him "scared" of Lebron. Infact, he usually seems really pumped to go against him.

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  27. #121
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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    I'm not criticizing anyone here but DJones for asking to get taken out of the game. Don't you think that's messed up? Plus I am just going on what Michael Grady said... who does have really good seats and all, but I was really wondering if anyone else saw it.
    screw his seats we have replay and camera angles. Lance did nothing wrong there(except stop Lebrons drive and make him travel). If Jones did ask to be taken out of the game, that's a big negative against DJ. I didn't see DJ say anything, but Lance was calling for the obvious travel. In the fourth we cut their lead in half why would DJ be complaining about that units effort? I takes effort to outscore bench players to.
    Last edited by spazzxb; 02-15-2012 at 07:09 PM.

  28. #122
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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I just don't see how anyone can ever say Danny isn't tough or plays through pain.

    I am probably at fault here because I was trying to be funny with my Danny's sprained ego in my odd thoughts post.

    But I want to make certain everyone is clear, under no circumstance do I beleive for one second that Danny Granger pretended he was injured so he didn't have to come back.
    Those teeth wasn't his real teeth, they was porcelains, it didn't hurt just looked bad. He barely turned his ankle, he could have played...just used it to escape embarrassment. Lebron stole Danny's tough pills...Danny isn't tough...Yeah, I said it!!

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  30. #123
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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    However, Miami has a 48.5% FG% for the season. Getting up an extra 1.5% in this game doesn't mean the Pacers completely blew chunks on defense.
    But the point being made is that the Pacers WERE one of the elite FG% defensive teams in the NBA, so when a 48.5% team comes in, they get handed a 45% night. That's how you become a top ranked FG% team, by holding teams BELOW THE NORM.

    And the way you become one of the lower rated teams is by being the team that Miami goes ABOVE their FG% against. And this is the new trend, that the Pacers can be scored on almost at will for 12-14 minute stretches.

  31. #124
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    Default Re: Miami/Washington Generals postgame thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I'm not saying that either. A lot of people in this thread (you included) have given the impression that we suddenly suck and need to make major moves in order to have any chance of advancing in the second round. What I'm saying is that we do not need to blow this up nor do we need to panick and try to bring in an expensive player in hopes of turning us into ECF contenders, failing and then get stuck with a bad contract.
    Ive NEVER said anything close to "blow up" the team. However I DO think we need to make a major move to be competitive in the playoffs. Do you really see this team as currently constructed making much noise in the PS? Im sorry but Im not happy with simply being there, that does nothing for me.

    We need to keep in perspective what's our goal. Our goal at the start of the season was to improve over our last season. Right? Last season we were 8th seed and a 1st round exit. This season we're aiming to be a 3rd to 6th seed and make it to the 2nd round. I don't remember our goal changing into ECF contenders. Sure, we can give elite teams a run for their money (not every game) but that's about it. We're not contenders yet. We are right on track with our original goal, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Also, since you like being personal I have a question to ask you. Are you going to make any positive contribution here? I may be new to this forum but all I see you doing in the post game threads is whining about the team, the players and some posters who are defending said team and/or players.

    Do you want to criticize the team? Great. Then find what's wrong and suggest a way to fix it. Just like Justin Tyme does.

    Simply being negative and *****ing about everything is not going to help.
    Personal? How so? I've never mentioned you, or even quoted something you posted IIRC? Who are YOU to judge what a positive contribution is here? You really do think quite highly if yourself don't you. That may be what rubs me the wrong way with you, your elitist attitude. How you simply tell people that their opinion is wrong. I really have better things to do than argue with you, so here, put your cheek on the screen, Im going to give you a smooch. You were right and I was wrong.

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