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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

  1. #26

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    It's really easy to get sucked into Denver's style of play. Especially for a young team.

    Ty Lawson, looks ridiculously strong. Like I swear his body mass is the same as AJ and DC's put together. I didn't notice how short he was because of how strong he looked.

    That being said, the defense surrounding him was terrible. DC's improved defensively, but he's not good. AJ's been really really good defensively this entire year, but even he struggled to keep Lawson in front of him.

    That said, the biggest problem, as always, came on the PnR. Our bigs, other than Foster, are just awful with it. Roy's just too slow and Amundson doesn't know what to do with himself. Tyler hedges off the PG well, but doesn't recover to his man quick enough, and West recovers to his man, but flat out gets in our PG's way (or Paul George's). Really really bad.

    AJ, if we're going to throw out a lineup of Tyler, Lou/Foster, Lance, and Dahntay, he's going to have to shoot. I know everyone has their ideal of what they want the point guard to do, but you have to look at the reality of the situation. There's no perimeter offense, unless a streaky (at best) AJ gets it going.

    I know spacing the court has become a bad word here. But it is needed. We threw the ball to Tyler, 4 people were covering Tyler...and Dahntay's guy was hedging between staying on Dahntay and heading towards Tyler.

    Dahntay, although improved shooting wise, would prefer to drive to the basket, as would Lance. Lou/Foster simply aren't going to score from the perimeter. If AJ's taking and making his open shots (which he's getting, because the team's defense is entirely focused on Tyler) the offense becomes much smoother. AJ was able to make two really nice passes (Tyler was able to get an +1 on one, and I think he got fouled on another) to Tyler because he (AJ) had proven that he was worth guarding. (So, he needs to keep proving it)

    I think AJ is most likely to succeed in a situation where he isn't forced to look for his shot (Like when Hill was on the floor) and he can simply run the offense and pick his opportunities. The reality is, he isn't in that situation. And asking Lance to supply the perimeter offense is just plain unfair.

    Now onto Lance. I'm still not impressed with his game. He's not so much a combo guard as he is a "nopo" He doesn't have a position. He's incapable of running an offense for a variety of reasons (which we've been through) and struggles (although has improved) at moving without the ball, he hasn't proven he can shoot. And really, needs to be in transition to do anything positive.

    That being said, he is quite good in a transition game. And something I hadn't expected was the amount of positive energy and effort he brings to games. He's not a good defender, but if the rest of the team put in the amount of effort on the defensive end that Lance puts in we'd be one heck of a defensive team, and the result of his effort is usually one or two good defensive stops. I like seeing effort out of players, it's why..despite his shortcomings, I adore Tyler. But at the end of the day, the bench rotation needs to be AJ/Hill/Dahntay/Tyler/Jeff (hopefully). We can't afford to not play a point guard and Hill is easily the better shooting guard. Lance needs to develop in a position before he's ready for playoffs and the like. Short memories have forgotten the struggles the bench was having before GH's injury, we were going to lose these games anyway because when the Pacers won, it's pretty much always been the starters.

    Roy, is obviously struggling right now. I don't believe Vogel has changed the offense. Sure, he wants to run a bit when possible, but that's just adding another weapon to our team. We should be running when possible. That doesn't change the fact that Roy's struggling in the half court.

    I'm not too worried though. Vogel's in tune with the players. Most likely, he'll make it a point to get the ball to Roy. And he's good at building their confidence up, which is usually what Roy needs. I do think Roy still needs to toughen up, physically and mentally.

    That said, every single one of our players has gone through an up and down patch this season. This is Roy's first. Guy's go in funks, and guys pop out of them. He'll be okay, he's just got to play through it.

    Danny, it's nice to see Danny has his shot back, but for some reason his defense went with it. How many times is someone going to go backdoor on him? I'd rather him focusing his energy on defense.

    PG has been in a funk right with Roy. But it's a long season, he's very young, and he's shown a lot of improvement this season. He'll be fine.

    DC, I think he's done quite well this season. But he struggled last night. Lawson is a really tough matchup for him. DC's not a good defender, and Lawson is significantly stronger - and might be just as fast. Then Ty started making jump shots and it was all over.

    and then when we'd switch PG onto Ty, and DC onto Andre...Andre would post him up. Rough game. He's been very good this season as well, and is allowed to struggle. In fact, considering how many minutes he's had to play the entire season, I'm surprised he's not struggling more.

    Kobe Jones. He's turned himself into a valuable role player off the bench. Although sometimes the bench unit could use him going all Kobe on the other team, I like the more subdued version. You can just tell he's an excellent teammate.

    West, like Danny his offense has been great, but his defense..not so much. And he's a vet, who has played on a good team, he should know better. I tend to give him leeway on certain things, because, as I've repeated, people coming off of knee injuries go through their ups and downs. But I've felt like there's an effort problem on the defense and rebounding side of things, which wasn't there earlier in the season. Maybe he's just worn out (I don't really buy that because of his offense.) But effort matters to me. I can forgive Lance, DC and Tyler for their defensive mishaps because I know the effort is there. They're just usually lost or physically unable to defend well for whatever reason. Lack of effort bothers me.

    Lou...oh Lou. Vogel was cracking me up when he didn't care that Lou kept fouling.

    Now onto Frank. I adore Frank, and I think he's done a wonderful job, but he's hit a snug here. I understand the reason for some of the things he's doing. (IE: instead of staggering the bench in with the starters, he's playing each as a unit. I can see not wanting to mess with the starters chemistry) But he needs to get better with the timeouts. And I do think he needs to consider subbing when things go south. (Like he did last night, when he inserted AJ and Dahntay in for DC and PG.) Although, that's still debatable and I understand his reasoning for not doing so.

    At the end of the day, we've lost these three games because of defense, rebounding and turnovers. Easily fixable, but suggests a lack of mental focus more than anything.

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  3. #27

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    That entry pass by AJ to Tyler was great and is something we have not seen much of this year. Our guys are terrible at feeding the post and probably receiving the ball when the big is being fronted. Seeing how so much of our offense is based on post play. They really need to figure that out.

    Paul George is the worst. He makes terrible entry passes.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    Danny Granger: C Could have been much higher, but 5 turnovers and only 2 rebounds tends to drag your grade down when the team loses. Cory Brewer also looked like Bernard King for awhile tonight and while I donít say Danny played horrid defense like some will, I wonít say he played good defense either. As he walked off of the court tonight he threw his towel hard into his seat and he looked very mad. Iím not sure about what either, and then I read that he refused to talk to the media. Donít know what happened there.

    Danny had a great first half, but he didn't carry it over to the second half. Ever since I started to watch Granger play, I came to the conclusion that Danny feeds off momentum. I personally think he sat on the bench way too long and it took all his momentum away.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore View Post
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    Interesting game to say the least, I had the best seats I've ever had. I was in section 5, 1st row behind the broadcasters rocking the Roy Hibbert All Star jersey. It was a very interesting experience being so close, hearing the players communicate, etc.
    Dude I saw you from the section above! I was saying to myself this guy must be a fan, already rocking Hibbert's all star jersey only a few days after it was announced.

    This was the first game that I went to this season and I honestly thought we were going to win after PG sunk the two 3s and DC and West had the and-1's.. Kinda disappointed but still had fun. Saw Brook Ozendam (spelling?) before the pregame show and asked if I could take a pic with her and she was really nice. She looks hotter and thinner in person, but also seemed tired for some reason. Saw Croshere up close for the first time and thought to myself these NBA players are so freakin tall! I think I also saw Peck, Roaming Gnome and a few others talking near the front entrance as I was passing by after the game ended. Anyway had a great time too bad we lost and dreading the heat right now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PacersRule View Post
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    Dude I saw you from the section above! I was saying to myself this guy must be a fan, already rocking Hibbert's all star jersey only a few days after it was announced.

    Hah, I DVR'ed the game and I was on TV quite a bit. My girlfriend was wearing a Hansbrough jersey sitting next to me. There was a funny moment when they were reviewing Hibberts "save" from out of bounds near the end of the game, you can see me standing, harrasing the refs and my girl trying to pull me down. I just couldn't resist the urge to scream "Somebody throw a beer." Quite a few people around me found it funny, my girlfriend not so much. What can I say? I live in Tennessee so when I come to a game, I am getting my moneys worth.

    Also, before the game started I was standing and Roy did a double take when he saw my Jersey...it was before Bird presented it with him on the floor. It seemed as if Roy hadn't even seen the jersey yet.
    *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore View Post
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    Hah, I DVR'ed the game and I was on TV quite a bit. My girlfriend was wearing a Hansbrough jersey sitting next to me. There was a funny moment when they were reviewing Hibberts "save" from out of bounds near the end of the game, you can see me standing, harrasing the refs and my girl trying to pull me down. I just couldn't resist the urge to scream "Somebody throw a beer." Quite a few people around me found it funny, my girlfriend not so much. What can I say? I live in Tennessee so when I come to a game, I am getting my moneys worth.

    Also, before the game started I was standing and Roy did a double take when he saw my Jersey...it was before Bird presented it with him on the floor. It seemed as if Roy hadn't even seen the jersey yet.

    I sat right by you Theodore I was in the Paul george jersey a couple seats to your left. Loved the Hibbert jersey. It was my first and most likely last time I will ever sit front row at The Bank. Unbelievable experience being that close to the action. Two things that stood out to me was how massive Al harrington really is and the size of Koufus humungous nose.
    The Brawl set our franchise back years but it was a hell of a lot fun to watch!

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    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Hansbrough is too busy moaning to the refs and trying to get the ball out of anyone's hand that he has no clue how to run a fast break and jumps on top of his teammates for a rebound when there are only Pacers contending it.
    Wouldn't he be getting more boards if this was true. Dude has only 11 rebounds in last 4 games 5 of them came on the offensive end.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    FGA/PPG PER36
    16.6/19.4 Danny
    13.4/15.7 Roy
    12.9/14.9 West
    12.4/9.8 Price
    12.3/14.5 Tyler

  12. #34
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by NewEra View Post
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    I sat right by you Theodore I was in the Paul george jersey a couple seats to your left. Loved the Hibbert jersey. It was my first and most likely last time I will ever sit front row at The Bank. Unbelievable experience being that close to the action. Two things that stood out to me was how massive Al harrington really is and the size of Koufus humungous nose.
    Yeah I remember you, you were with 3 other guys right? You guys were cracking me up, my kind of guys! More fans need to "bring it" like WE did. I was glad I was not the only one being a little obnoxious.

    I'll be at the Miami game and then it's back home to Nashville for me. I'll be rocking the Hibbert All Star Jersey in section 14, row 17.
    *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    FGA/PPG PER36
    16.6/19.4 Danny
    13.4/15.7 Roy
    12.9/14.9 West
    12.4/9.8 Price
    12.3/14.5 Tyler
    Yes we know you hate Price, and wish he would die a horrible death.

  14. #36

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    I always agree with most of what Peck says but DC never runs the team well. He is not a true point guard. He is a pretty good player but that is it. We have not seen a true good point guard in this town in so long, I think alot of people have forgotten what one looks like. Until we get one, the team will be inconsistent. Players will not play up to their potential regularly and the team will stay mediocre. If someone like Jeremy Lin can make Jeffries and Novak look really good just imagine what he could do with Granger or George or Hansbrough or Hibbert. Wake up Indy, we will see the glimpses of what it could be with the group we have but we will not take the next step until we get a real point guard. Just imagine Deron Williams on this team. We could be contenders right away.

  15. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    It's really easy to get sucked into Denver's style of play. Especially for a young team.

    Ty Lawson, looks ridiculously strong. Like I swear his body mass is the same as AJ and DC's put together. I didn't notice how short he was because of how strong he looked.

    That being said, the defense surrounding him was terrible. DC's improved defensively, but he's not good. AJ's been really really good defensively this entire year, but even he struggled to keep Lawson in front of him.

    That said, the biggest problem, as always, came on the PnR. Our bigs, other than Foster, are just awful with it. Roy's just too slow and Amundson doesn't know what to do with himself. Tyler hedges off the PG well, but doesn't recover to his man quick enough, and West recovers to his man, but flat out gets in our PG's way (or Paul George's). Really really bad.

    AJ, if we're going to throw out a lineup of Tyler, Lou/Foster, Lance, and Dahntay, he's going to have to shoot. I know everyone has their ideal of what they want the point guard to do, but you have to look at the reality of the situation. There's no perimeter offense, unless a streaky (at best) AJ gets it going.

    I know spacing the court has become a bad word here. But it is needed. We threw the ball to Tyler, 4 people were covering Tyler...and Dahntay's guy was hedging between staying on Dahntay and heading towards Tyler.

    Dahntay, although improved shooting wise, would prefer to drive to the basket, as would Lance. Lou/Foster simply aren't going to score from the perimeter. If AJ's taking and making his open shots (which he's getting, because the team's defense is entirely focused on Tyler) the offense becomes much smoother. AJ was able to make two really nice passes (Tyler was able to get an +1 on one, and I think he got fouled on another) to Tyler because he (AJ) had proven that he was worth guarding. (So, he needs to keep proving it)

    I think AJ is most likely to succeed in a situation where he isn't forced to look for his shot (Like when Hill was on the floor) and he can simply run the offense and pick his opportunities. The reality is, he isn't in that situation. And asking Lance to supply the perimeter offense is just plain unfair.

    Now onto Lance. I'm still not impressed with his game. He's not so much a combo guard as he is a "nopo" He doesn't have a position. He's incapable of running an offense for a variety of reasons (which we've been through) and struggles (although has improved) at moving without the ball, he hasn't proven he can shoot. And really, needs to be in transition to do anything positive.

    That being said, he is quite good in a transition game. And something I hadn't expected was the amount of positive energy and effort he brings to games. He's not a good defender, but if the rest of the team put in the amount of effort on the defensive end that Lance puts in we'd be one heck of a defensive team, and the result of his effort is usually one or two good defensive stops. I like seeing effort out of players, it's why..despite his shortcomings, I adore Tyler. But at the end of the day, the bench rotation needs to be AJ/Hill/Dahntay/Tyler/Jeff (hopefully). We can't afford to not play a point guard and Hill is easily the better shooting guard. Lance needs to develop in a position before he's ready for playoffs and the like. Short memories have forgotten the struggles the bench was having before GH's injury, we were going to lose these games anyway because when the Pacers won, it's pretty much always been the starters.

    Roy, is obviously struggling right now. I don't believe Vogel has changed the offense. Sure, he wants to run a bit when possible, but that's just adding another weapon to our team. We should be running when possible. That doesn't change the fact that Roy's struggling in the half court.

    I'm not too worried though. Vogel's in tune with the players. Most likely, he'll make it a point to get the ball to Roy. And he's good at building their confidence up, which is usually what Roy needs. I do think Roy still needs to toughen up, physically and mentally.

    That said, every single one of our players has gone through an up and down patch this season. This is Roy's first. Guy's go in funks, and guys pop out of them. He'll be okay, he's just got to play through it.

    Danny, it's nice to see Danny has his shot back, but for some reason his defense went with it. How many times is someone going to go backdoor on him? I'd rather him focusing his energy on defense.

    PG has been in a funk right with Roy. But it's a long season, he's very young, and he's shown a lot of improvement this season. He'll be fine.

    DC, I think he's done quite well this season. But he struggled last night. Lawson is a really tough matchup for him. DC's not a good defender, and Lawson is significantly stronger - and might be just as fast. Then Ty started making jump shots and it was all over.

    and then when we'd switch PG onto Ty, and DC onto Andre...Andre would post him up. Rough game. He's been very good this season as well, and is allowed to struggle. In fact, considering how many minutes he's had to play the entire season, I'm surprised he's not struggling more.

    Kobe Jones. He's turned himself into a valuable role player off the bench. Although sometimes the bench unit could use him going all Kobe on the other team, I like the more subdued version. You can just tell he's an excellent teammate.

    West, like Danny his offense has been great, but his defense..not so much. And he's a vet, who has played on a good team, he should know better. I tend to give him leeway on certain things, because, as I've repeated, people coming off of knee injuries go through their ups and downs. But I've felt like there's an effort problem on the defense and rebounding side of things, which wasn't there earlier in the season. Maybe he's just worn out (I don't really buy that because of his offense.) But effort matters to me. I can forgive Lance, DC and Tyler for their defensive mishaps because I know the effort is there. They're just usually lost or physically unable to defend well for whatever reason. Lack of effort bothers me.

    Lou...oh Lou. Vogel was cracking me up when he didn't care that Lou kept fouling.

    Now onto Frank. I adore Frank, and I think he's done a wonderful job, but he's hit a snug here. I understand the reason for some of the things he's doing. (IE: instead of staggering the bench in with the starters, he's playing each as a unit. I can see not wanting to mess with the starters chemistry) But he needs to get better with the timeouts. And I do think he needs to consider subbing when things go south. (Like he did last night, when he inserted AJ and Dahntay in for DC and PG.) Although, that's still debatable and I understand his reasoning for not doing so.

    At the end of the day, we've lost these three games because of defense, rebounding and turnovers. Easily fixable, but suggests a lack of mental focus more than anything.
    Lance definitely has a position and possible two. He is a good jump shooter. Anybody that has saw him play elsewhere knows that. When Granger was the worst shooter in the league to start the season, did you honestly think he would remain that bad. He is a good shooter and we knew he would get better. He has gotten plenty of minutes to get out of his slump. Lance has not. When the game slows down for Lance, he will show that he is a much better shooter than he has shown. I think he gets too anxious and mentally not shooting well will make you hesitate. Let him play his way out of it. The alternative is Price who is shooting it just as bad or worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Yes we know you hate Price, and wish he would die a horrible death.
    I don't hate any player but he has no business shooting that often, he went from not playing to taking 15.5 shots PER 36 this month in 7 games. Those numbers speak for themselves as he's taking shots at the 4th highest clip but is scoring at the 9th highest rate despite a perfect season from the line so if you use per 36 makes he's tied with Lou for dead last.
    Last edited by Asher99; 02-12-2012 at 08:08 PM.

  17. #39

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    Lance definitely has a position and possible two. He is a good jump shooter. Anybody that has saw him play elsewhere knows that. When Granger was the worst shooter in the league to start the season, did you honestly think he would remain that bad. He is a good shooter and we knew he would get better. He has gotten plenty of minutes to get out of his slump. Lance has not. When the game slows down for Lance, he will show that he is a much better shooter than he has shown. I think he gets too anxious and mentally not shooting well will make you hesitate. Let him play his way out of it. The alternative is Price who is shooting it just as bad or worse.
    I wasn't saying he isn't a completely SG just because he couldn't shoot. Plenty of SG's can't shoot. But he doesn't move well without the ball, and he doesn't attack the basket well in a half court offense, and he's not a defensive stopper.

    He had a nice midrange game in college, which'll hopefully come out.

    Right now, he's bringing energy/effort, and doing well in transition. The problem with him is he needs the ball in his hands in order to be "effective" (which, in the half court, he's not even effective) and he's not capable of running an offense (although is capable of the flashy pass) but he also doesn't know what to do off the ball.

    He looks better as an SG, because the PG (Hill or AJ) picks Lance's opportunities with the ball in his hands for them, but he's not doing any of the things that really effective shooting guards do either.

    I think it'll be easier for him to develop into an SG. But he's not there yet.

    edit: I really wish you would look at what's going on in the floor instead of looking at stats, re: AJ's shots. The starters, play with five other people capable of scoring. Of course it's spread out more. The bench unit has one "scorer" in Tyler, and that's become really difficult to score from, because no one else is scoring. AJ has been taking open shots, and "end of the shot clock" shots.

    I know you want Tyler to get the ball more. And Price tries to get him the ball, almost every time down the floor. (And fact, he's probably the best guard at getting the ball down low) But because of the lack of scoring from everyone else, the other team's entire defensive strategy is to zone in on Tyler.

    And regardless Your stats show that AJ is taking a shot once every three minutes. That's probably close to once every 7-8 possessions. That really isn't that often for someone who is likely considered by the coaching staff and players to be the second option when he's in with the entire bench unit.
    Last edited by Sookie; 02-12-2012 at 09:37 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    I am not liking that Hansbrough is getting so few minutes now. I understood as much during his struggles but he has been playing well pretty lately and there is really now reason for him not to be back up to 25 minutes again and with a player like Hansbrough alot can happen in the 5-8 extra minutes.

  19. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I wasn't saying he isn't a completely SG just because he couldn't shoot. Plenty of SG's can't shoot. But he doesn't move well without the ball, and he doesn't attack the basket well in a half court offense, and he's not a defensive stopper.

    He had a nice midrange game in college, which'll hopefully come out.

    Right now, he's bringing energy/effort, and doing well in transition. The problem with him is he needs the ball in his hands in order to be "effective" (which, in the half court, he's not even effective) and he's not capable of running an offense (although is capable of the flashy pass) but he also doesn't know what to do off the ball.

    He looks better as an SG, because the PG (Hill or AJ) picks Lance's opportunities with the ball in his hands for them, but he's not doing any of the things that really effective shooting guards do either.

    I think it'll be easier for him to develop into an SG. But he's not there yet.

    edit: I really wish you would look at what's going on in the floor instead of looking at stats, re: AJ's shots. The starters, play with five other people capable of scoring. Of course it's spread out more. The bench unit has one "scorer" in Tyler, and that's become really difficult to score from, because no one else is scoring. AJ has been taking open shots, and "end of the shot clock" shots.

    I know you want Tyler to get the ball more. And Price tries to get him the ball, almost every time down the floor. (And fact, he's probably the best guard at getting the ball down low) But because of the lack of scoring from everyone else, the other team's entire defensive strategy is to zone in on Tyler.

    And regardless Your stats show that AJ is taking a shot once every three minutes. That's probably close to once every 7-8 possessions. That really isn't that often for someone who is likely considered by the coaching staff and players to be the second option when he's in with the entire bench unit.
    How do you know he can't run a team at the point. He has not gotten an opportunity. We have two other so called point guards that can't run a team but they still get a chance to do it. As far as shooting guard, they are using him the same way they did George early in the season. Go stand in the corner while we run iso plays for other players. He can move without the ball and has shown that but it does no good when nobody delivers it on time and in the right spots. I am not saying that he will be great and not make mistakes, he will. But we will never know until he truly gets a chance to play and not have to look over his shoulder all the time to see if he is being taken out because he may make a mistake. George was not doing a whole lot early in the year until they showed some confidence in him and took the reigns off. I don't know what you mean about me being a stat guy, I am not that at all. Have you ever heard me quote stats?

  20. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    How do you know he can't run a team at the point. He has not gotten an opportunity. We have two other so called point guards that can't run a team but they still get a chance to do it. As far as shooting guard, they are using him the same way they did George early in the season. Go stand in the corner while we run iso plays for other players. He can move without the ball and has shown that but it does no good when nobody delivers it on time and in the right spots. I am not saying that he will be great and not make mistakes, he will. But we will never know until he truly gets a chance to play and not have to look over his shoulder all the time to see if he is being taken out because he may make a mistake. George was not doing a whole lot early in the year until they showed some confidence in him and took the reigns off. I don't know what you mean about me being a stat guy, I am not that at all. Have you ever heard me quote stats?
    He did get the opportunity. Then Vogel made a switch saying that Lance will primarily play the SG. He didn't say why, but I always thought it was pretty obvious because Lance wasn't doing well as a PG.

    Since the switch, Lance has been significantly better.

  21. #43

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    He did get the opportunity. Then Vogel made a switch saying that Lance will primarily play the SG. He didn't say why, but I always thought it was pretty obvious because Lance wasn't doing well as a PG.

    Since the switch, Lance has been significantly better.
    When did he get this opportunity. When he played point every other time down the floor while getting about 3 to 5 minutes a game. You call that a chance. If he got any opportunity at all it would have been early in the season when he wasn't playing well at all. Now he is doing much better and playing more under control. We need help at that position. Collison can't run a team at all. He can't get thru a screen on defense at all. Price is a better defender but is more interested in shooting than getting teammates involved. George Hill is the same kind of player as Collison but a much better defender and alot tougher but he is not a true point guard either. All they did with the switch was get Lance to play more under control. If you can learn to do that at SG, you can learn to do it at PG. I am not saying give him 30 minutes at the Point but give him enough time to settle in and see what he can do.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    I really can't comprehend all the advocacy for Lance.

    When playing PG, he is at best a 3rd string PG. Hell, when Hill is playing, Lance is the #4 PG.

    When Hill returns he will consume many of the minutes that Lance and Price are seeing right now. So, despite what some don't seem to realize is that Lance IS getting his chance. Right here, right now.

    Some of you have seen Lance in a better setting than he has been provided here with the Pacers. I haven't. What I do see is an extremely good athlete who can be deceptive with the ball and who seems to have pretty good vision.

    I haven't seen much beyond that. I can say that I would expect him to eventually be a pretty good defensive player. I'm not sure what he will become offensively.

    Unfortunately, being a backcourt player, the Pacers do need him to begin making those improvements to warrant taking minutes from other players and giving them to Lance. I believe that once Hill returns that it will be abundantly clear that sufficient improvement has not been made to warrant those additional minutes.

  23. #45

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    I really can't comprehend all the advocacy for Lance.

    When playing PG, he is at best a 3rd string PG. Hell, when Hill is playing, Lance is the #4 PG.

    When Hill returns he will consume many of the minutes that Lance and Price are seeing right now. So, despite what some don't seem to realize is that Lance IS getting his chance. Right here, right now.

    Some of you have seen Lance in a better setting than he has been provided here with the Pacers. I haven't. What I do see is an extremely good athlete who can be deceptive with the ball and who seems to have pretty good vision.

    I haven't seen much beyond that. I can say that I would expect him to eventually be a pretty good defensive player. I'm not sure what he will become offensively.

    Unfortunately, being a backcourt player, the Pacers do need him to begin making those improvements to warrant taking minutes from other players and giving them to Lance. I believe that once Hill returns that it will be abundantly clear that sufficient improvement has not been made to warrant those additional minutes.
    You can't be a 4th string PG on a team that only might have 1 PG to begin with. When Hill comes back it will be AJ that goes to the bench. Lance will play better with Hill because Hill will share the ball. Last year everyone said Lance could not play defense, he worked very hard in the summer came back and you can see he has improved tremendously on defense. His strong suit has always been his offensive game. He can score in a number of ways. He feeds the post better than anyone we have right now. He runs the break better than anyone we have now. He will also rebound from that position. The Nuggets game, when Lawson was making Collison look like a fool, it would have been nice to see a change putting Lance at the point for a period and see if he could punish Lawson by posting him up. He would have guarded Lawson better because he would have gotten thru screens. This is just my opinion. He has got to grow as a player just as Roy did and George has to do. If he can start that now he could be a huge plus for us in the playoffs. People on this board are always talking about plus/minus stats. If you believe in that stat look at Lance's stat the last few games.

  24. #46

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    He did get the opportunity. Then Vogel made a switch saying that Lance will primarily play the SG. He didn't say why, but I always thought it was pretty obvious because Lance wasn't doing well as a PG.
    I was debating this with someone the other day. Didn't the announcement come right after Hill went down? If so, wouldn't moving AJ into the rotation and leaving Lance to play all the SG minutes be the logical move? It might have been a demotion, but I'm not so sure.

    I guess we'll all find out when Hill comes back. I can't imagine they'd bench Lance after him buying in to the new role and playing pretty well at times. If they did, I wonder how badly that would affect his confidence?

  25. #47

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    I was debating this with someone the other day. Didn't the announcement come right after Hill went down? If so, wouldn't moving AJ into the rotation and leaving Lance to play all the SG minutes be the logical move? It might have been a demotion, but I'm not so sure.

    I guess we'll all find out when Hill comes back. I can't imagine they'd bench Lance after him buying in to the new role and playing pretty well at times. If they did, I wonder how badly that would affect his confidence?
    No, Vogel made that announcement after the Miami game. (Although it was clear he had made the switch during the Miami game.)

    The problem is, and I agree, Lance has brought a lot of positive energy. He's not a point guard. Nor is Hill. So if we want our bench to run well, it's going to need to be AJ and Hill together. Our bench was struggling before Hill went down, because it didn't have a point guard.

    Still, I understand it's hard to bench a young guy whose putting in a lot of energy and effort into his role. It's just whether you want the team to be better this year and heading into the playoffs or not or whether you want to develop Lance more.

  26. #48
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    AJ Price is stealing Lance's shot attempts. I think AJ does it on purpose, he wants to move up on the depth chart.
    You can't get champagne from a garden hose.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

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    AJ Price is stealing Lance's shot attempts. I think AJ does it on purpose, he wants to move up on the depth chart.
    Have you watched any games so far this year? Some people have fallen so in love with the possibility of Lance becoming out starting PG in the future they are blind to the current truths.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Battered by Gold Dust

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    His strong suit has always been his offensive game. He can score in a number of ways. He feeds the post better than anyone we have right now. He runs the break better than anyone we have now. He will also rebound from that position.
    I presume you do realize that your position is not something that Vogel and TPTB agree with? Right?

    Otherwise, if Lance were "that good", would it not be obvious to you that Vogel would have him in the starting lineup. Therefore, I must conclude that either Vogel is incredibly stupid, or that perhaps your perspective is more than just a bit biased.

    Personally, I'm a fundamentalist. I see no more value in the "flashy" pass than I do in the standard, every day ordinary entry pass to the post. I think that some folks are fooled by flash and for some reason put more value in it. Kind of like monstrous dunks versus layups.

    I don't care about the fact that Lance is able to accomplish some of his passes with flair. I don't award points for style. All I want to see is consistency in all things that he does, just like I expect from any other player.

    Folks can talk about how 20-25 minutes per game would be the best thing for Lance. I would agree. Playing significant minutes would be the best thing to develop his game. Unfortunately, Lance playing 20-25 minutes per game would not be the best thing to benefit the TEAM. Therefore, if Lance needs far more minutes to develop, the best place for him to get them would be in the D-league, because he has done nothing to earn or warrant those minutes at this time.

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