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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    It was a very impressive game, but I do have to keep reminding myself that Kidd was out, they don't have Chandler anymore, and Dirk was not 100%. It wasn't the same Mav's team.

    We still did what we needed to do though.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Couple notes about this season:

    1) At the beginning of the season, our bench was supposed to be a strength... but it seems the exact opposite has occurred. Our starting unit has become beastly, and our bench has been lagging behind. However, the overall depth of this team is a strength, and is a huge reason we're wearing teams out.

    2) Vogel. There's something I want to point out that is extremely awesome to me. On top of his confidence-instilling attitude and basic tough basketball mindset... we're a 3rd quarter team. What does that mean? He's making awesome halftime adjustments. This is just huge... this is a major quality to have as a head coach. It's like... the icing on the cake for this guy. I think he's going to become a major big-time coach in this league. I've seen all I need to see.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Tyler isn't getting any help from the officials. He drives to the hoop, gets hacked, and no whistle is blown. He doesn't get "superstar" calls

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    It was a very impressive game, but I do have to keep reminding myself that Kidd was out, they don't have Chandler anymore, and Dirk was not 100%. It wasn't the same Mav's team.

    We still did what we needed to do though.
    Nowitzky was really laboring, particularly in the 2nd half. He couldn't handle PG defensively at all. His bad knee was part of that, but even with a good wheel on Dirk I don't think he could contain PG. Dallas didn't really have anyone that could match him from the standpoint of athleticism. Their consistent doubling of Roy made for a lot of open jumpers for us last night too. That part of Carlisle's defensive strategy didn't work very well for Dallas

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

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    The problem is that when he "is what he is," he's a guy who shoots a terrible percentage.

    Vogel could not allow him to continue to "be what he is." I agree with that decision.

    I'm a Tyler fan. Love his tenacity and energy. But he is no longer the best player on the floor, much less the best player in the country. He now has to learn how to play with discipline. Good shot selection, looking for the pass, etc.

    If he can't pull it off, it will be too bad. But everything about this character tells me he will recover, learn his new role, and be a great player for us.
    I'm of the philosophy that he can be what he is because right now he's a role player. If he's a hammer, you can use him to hit nails because that's what he's good at.

    No need to reinvent the wheel here. That was one of my biggest complaints about JOB.

    Having said that, I'm giving Frank the benefit of the doubt because we're still winning and it appears to be a good time for Lance and Tyler's development. And this is clearly a strategic decision because we moved Tyler to the weakside on offense. There's no way Frank thinks Lou is more useful than Tyler in pick n pops, right?

    The rebounding defensive woes last night was an anomaly but it has me concerned. Tyler's not the uninvolved type but it seemed like he took his foot off the gas a bit. It's possible that getting knocked in the head has affected him and this could be a recurring problem in his career but I don't know. This guy is a champion though so I'm confident that he'll come out of his funk soon. And in the process, this weakside stuff may help develop his game a little.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Tylers confidence may be shaken but I dont think its because he is missing good looks but rather that he doesnt seem to be involved offensively anymore even when the entire bench is in the game. Before he was the guy with the bench on the floor and while he hasnt shot well all season he still was able to get 6 FTs attempts a game and make a positive impact.

    Now he either never touches the ball or gets it 20 feet out .. never in a position to do anything other than pass. I have always believed that Tyler should get 10-12 shots a game and I still think that.

    His defense is fine. The guards need to do a better job of recovering from screens for sure though. Too often they leave Hansbrough and West out to dry.

    If David West is a real leader then he needs to take Hansbrough to the side and personally help him out and not leave him alone in his current mire.
    Last edited by JEM; 02-04-2012 at 12:47 PM.

  9. #57
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I think some of you recall Tyler getting blocked nearly every time, correct? You saw him adjust...at least I hope you all caught that...but many didn't think he could adjust. Others have forgotten that he did that. Now, the funeral procession on his game has started anew. I understand he's unorthodox, but I still contend his game translates. He just needs to learn how to play within the team concept Vogel has put in place.

    I will admit he is slow to adjust, but without question I know he will work hard and get the help necessary to make the adjustments.

    BTW, there's nothing wrong with his ability to defend mano-mano. He's not a great help guy, but neither is West. Neither block shots.

    I guess we'll see but I suspect in another month or two, he will come alive again and I will be serving up the crow. Hope y'all are hungry.

    BTW, I know his game is odd and hard to believe that it could be effective. But it is what it is. He is going to turn this around IMO...
    As far as I can tell (in this thread at least) the majority of us are not saying Tyler can't or won't adjust. I've been highly critical lately, including earlier in this thread, but I very clearly stated I think this is a growing period and he'll make the adjustments eventually because he's a winner. Yes, as usual we have one two people on the "Tyler totally sucks always" side and one or two on the "Tyler is totally awesome, so if he's bad it's someone else's fault," wagon. I understand the squeakiest wheel gets the grease, but it bugs me when people start talking as if a relatively small number of people are more numerous than they are. Or worse yet, conflating everyone who criticizes a particular player and then proceeding as if they are all saying whatever the most extreme version of the argument is. I think those kinds of distortions often changes the tone of these discussions, and usually not for the better. I also suspect most people don't do it on purpose, so I am hoping it's useful to throw some light on this dynamic.

    Ironically, it appears to me that in the way he has gone about defending him, Asher actually implies that Tyler can't adjust, insisting we have to let him "play his game," because the process of learning a more team oriented game will make him useless forever. I don't believe that and I don't think most people who have been critical of Tyler believe that. So I think you may be cooking up way more crow than is suitable to serve in the end.
    Last edited by gummy; 02-04-2012 at 12:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    What grade can I change Tyler to so that we can stop making this the Tyler Hansbrough thread and rejoice in the fact that we beat the defending champions?

    I want to really focus on the fact that what was said above.

    We are a third quarter team. That is coaching.

    That means we are going into the locker room, drawing up plays, countering what the other team is doing and often anticipating what we think they will do.

    Is it Brian Shaw? Is it Dan Burke? Is it Jim Boylen? Is it Frank Vogel?

    The answer is yes.

    Ultimately Frank gets the credit because it is his final decision but Frank has shown a great ability to learn from people so I believe he is leaning on all of his ast. coach's and drawing from their experiances. BTW this is called leadership, but I digress.

    Obviously I have failed to set the proper tone for this thread so to recitfy this I am going to post more dancing fruit, maybe some of you can set down your pitchforks and torches and join me.



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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Without the fruitsalad, what amazed me most is that Rick made it so hard for us to use Roy properly and the way we countered with going with West, same for Granger, covered like a glove, smothered by double teams both of them were and PG got the chance to break out almost unbothered.

    While we may not (yet) have a superstar we have a team that (starters at least) offer you a variety of poisons to die by, prevent one or two and end up dying from the rest.

    And that was what was most impressive on our victory over the champs.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Without the fruitsalad, what amazed me most is that Rick made it so hard for us to use Roy properly and the way we countered with going with West, same for Granger, covered like a glove, smothered by double teams both of them were and PG got the chance to break out almost unbothered.

    While we may not (yet) have a superstar we have a team that (starters at least) offer you a variety of poisons to die by, prevent one or two and end up dying from the rest.

    And that was what was most impressive on our victory over the champs.
    Yea I was trying to make this point in my last Odd Thoughts and I can't remember the posters name who called me out for poor writing (he was right btw) but this was what I was trying to say.

    You can't really shut down one place on the floor on our team because we have the weapons to open up other places on the floor.

    The Hydra is a great example of this.

    Come on Able, you know you want to have some dancing fruit. Just one....


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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    What grade can I change Tyler to so that we can stop making this the Tyler Hansbrough thread
    Maybe if you use on Tyler the same glasses that you use to grade Danny we wouldn't have a thread like this ...............

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Maybe if you use on Tyler the same glasses that you use to grade Danny we wouldn't have a thread like this ...............

    Touché


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Couple notes about this season:

    1) At the beginning of the season, our bench was supposed to be a strength... but it seems the exact opposite has occurred. Our starting unit has become beastly, and our bench has been lagging behind. However, the overall depth of this team is a strength, and is a huge reason we're wearing teams out.

    2) Vogel. There's something I want to point out that is extremely awesome to me. On top of his confidence-instilling attitude and basic tough basketball mindset... we're a 3rd quarter team. What does that mean? He's making awesome halftime adjustments. This is just huge... this is a major quality to have as a head coach. It's like... the icing on the cake for this guy. I think he's going to become a major big-time coach in this league. I've seen all I need to see.
    time will tell on vogel. he looks like a guy that has the x's and o's down. the players on the team now love him. he has to produce game in and game out for a couple hundred games to show he is the guy or not.

    i do have an answer about the bench. why the starter have played much better. and why the bench has gone from a strength to so/so. it is not much of an observation, but here it is. the starters are much better players. the starters are above average to very good NBA guys. the bench guys are just guys. lance may become a good player some day, but right now he is just a guy. AJ is ok, but no more than that. the league has adjusted to tyler, until he adjusts to the adjustment, he is an undersized PF who trys hard. lou is an undersized big who tries hard. dahntay is the best player on the bench right now, but he is a defensive SG playing out of position. when/if jeff foster and george hill recover, the bench will recover. jeff and george are the guys on the bench that currently have actual NBA skills and knowledge. the short answer is the bench needs an upgrade of NBA ready talent.

    there is a silver lining of sorts here. come the playoffs, the bench will matter less. the starters can play enough minutes to make the bench weaknesses less important.

  19. #64
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Having said that, I'm giving Frank the benefit of the doubt because we're still winning and it appears to be a good time for Lance and Tyler's development. And this is clearly a strategic decision because we moved Tyler to the weakside on offense. There's no way Frank thinks Lou is more useful than Tyler in pick n pops, right?
    Care to explain more? I don't really understand it. Why would Tyler be practicing weak side at all? Are there plans to put him in the first unit?
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Notice how PG and Granger are playing more with the 2nd Unit as the proverbial SF in the lineup?

    I noticed this as of late and hope that it is an adjustment that will remain intact even after GH returns. This allows ( as someone suggested ) Inferno to play the 2 spot and allows for more mismatches on the defensive end where PG or Inferno are defending the opposing PG.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Couple notes about this season:

    1) At the beginning of the season, our bench was supposed to be a strength... but it seems the exact opposite has occurred. Our starting unit has become beastly, and our bench has been lagging behind. However, the overall depth of this team is a strength, and is a huge reason we're wearing teams out.

    2) Vogel. There's something I want to point out that is extremely awesome to me. On top of his confidence-instilling attitude and basic tough basketball mindset... we're a 3rd quarter team. What does that mean? He's making awesome halftime adjustments. This is just huge... this is a major quality to have as a head coach. It's like... the icing on the cake for this guy. I think he's going to become a major big-time coach in this league. I've seen all I need to see.
    I remember a few years back when we'd always play like crap in the 3rd QTR and lose MANY games cuz we came out flat and could score a bucket. Knowing that we have a Coach that can make those adjustments to keep us in the game is great.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  23. #67
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Are we really making 3rd quarter adjustments to the point of changing the game or are we playing a brand of basketball that is allowing us to stay with the other team and eventually wear them down playing against our offense (that is no longer about tossing up the first 3 we get) ("make 'em play defense") as well as having to play their offense against our physical defense that the team is taking pride in?

    I'd venture to say it's both... but a lot of it is teams wearing down mentally and physically because the Pacers refuse to fold. Unlike under JOB, when opposing teams look to quit playing cat and mouse and turn it on, the Pacers smile and say "bring it on"....
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by gummy View Post
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    Ironically, it appears to me that in the way he has gone about defending him, Asher actually implies that Tyler can't adjust, insisting we have to let him "play his game," because the process of learning a more team oriented game will make him useless forever. I don't believe that and I don't think most people who have been critical of Tyler believe that. So I think you may be cooking up way more crow than is suitable to serve in the end.
    8 points in 8 minutes...

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    You can say you're right as on now because the limited touches has killed his PER, he was over 16 before the change in strategy shooting the same percentage. The second he gets back to getting a steady 8 shots a game everything will go back to its norm.

    I know Tyler has flaws that why I been outspoken about this change that takes away his positives, but haters like yourself and Mackey never want to give him any credit at all. Seth has seemed to be able to see his positives and I would be willing to bet Seth see's the mistake in how Tyler is getting used the last 10 games.

    The bench was far better when he wasn't passing 30.1 to 22.7 PPG so if his teammates said that to him they should stay out of coaching or management because they aren't very good at assessing strengths and weaknesses.

    You and Mr Rose's boy Josh got benched by Mike Brown out in LA so maybe we should move Tyler there for Josh and you could be happy? I know they would do it, so what do think about that one?
    I'm really not sure why I got called out in this thread, and I'm not sure what Josh has to do with it. I am sure that you've now suggested that Tyler should be traded after two of the best wins we've had all year, the home game against the Hawks, and at the defending champion Mavs.

    I'm also sure that you're probably dying to see him play for your favorite team, and it sucks for you that the Grizz lost Z-Bo and Arthur, but Memphis already traded for one power forward this year. I don't think they have anything that we truly need, although many people do have an interest in Mayo, but I don't think he helps us.

    Since you apparently haven't noticed, the Pacers are pretty good. Unless they're making a significant upgrade, they might as well keep rolling with what they have. So what do you think about that one?

    Haters gonna hate I guess.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    I'm also sure that you're probably dying to see him play for your favorite team, and it sucks for you that the Grizz lost Z-Bo and Arthur, but Memphis already traded for one power forward this year.
    This is at least the 3rd time in my short time here for you strangely claim Memphis is my favorite team? My other team was the Sonics and then OKC somewhat by default because I took a liking to KD35 from the year in Seattle.

    I do like Tyler so Memphis would be one of the last places I would want him to play! Z-Bo will be back in a few weeks and when back he will play well over 36 min a game so that's one of the worst possible fits out there. For a guy who wants to act like he knows so much one would think you could see that clear as day.

    If we did make a trade with Memphis around Tyler and Mayo as key players we would be asked to take back Speights. He's lost the major bulk of the PT to the smaller Dante Cunningham after terrible play and lack of hustle landed him on the bench.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Haters gonna hate I guess.
    Indeed they will judging how you knock most our players when you post! Apparently you haven't noticed, the Pacers are pretty good.
    Last edited by Asher99; 02-07-2012 at 06:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    And this is clearly a strategic decision because we moved Tyler to the weakside on offense. There's no way Frank thinks Lou is more useful than Tyler in pick n pops, right?

    Sure Lou is. Lou doesn't get impatient and leave the PG double teamed.

    So if the point guard knows when to pass it to Tyler to get Tyler's midrange shot (AJ I think is the only one who does this well), then that's the only reason you'd attempt a PnR with him. Otherwise, if the PG is looking for the PF to roll or the PF is looking for his own shot, Lou's the better option. It's sort of like how they ran the PnR with Foster a lot last season too.

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