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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    he would be back to getting that 6th man of the year type love if he was allowed to be what he is.
    The problem is that when he "is what he is," he's a guy who shoots a terrible percentage.

    Vogel could not allow him to continue to "be what he is." I agree with that decision.

    I'm a Tyler fan. Love his tenacity and energy. But he is no longer the best player on the floor, much less the best player in the country. He now has to learn how to play with discipline. Good shot selection, looking for the pass, etc.

    If he can't pull it off, it will be too bad. But everything about this character tells me he will recover, learn his new role, and be a great player for us.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    The problem is that when he "is what he is," he's a guy who shoots a terrible percentage..
    Our star player is shooting a terrible percentage and he's shooting more than now than last year with despite more help around him. Plus the more shots Tyler gets on the regular the better he shoots as seen by his 49.9% as a starter.

    The key is do you want Tyler to shoot a poor percentage and get the line and cause foul trouble while getting under the other teams skin or do you want Price, Jones, Lou or Lance to shoot just as poor and get nothing added out of it.
    Last edited by Asher99; 02-04-2012 at 07:53 AM.

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Back to the overall, that was a great game. They just took over in the middle of the second half. It's like the opposite of our former team that would lead through three quarters and fold, seemingly every night.

    What is crazy to me is that I still don't think we have played that much up to our potential. Take Paul George. Basically he hit a bunch of threes tonight. I loved it, it was fun to watch. But he really didn't make that many nice moves or go to the rack and draw fouls, the things real superstars do to be consistent high scorers.

    The scary thing is that Paul George CAN do all those things, does them regularly here and there, and will eventually get to the point where he is nearly unstoppable.

    We are getting better at passing the ball, but have a lot more improvement to do there. Yet we still win games. The second unit has not figured out what their offensive strategy is yet. But we keep winning.

    George Hill and Jeff Foster are out. We keep winning.

    So, while the Dallas fans may be thinking, "Man, that team is good and whipped our butts," I'm thinking, "we played fairly good tonight, not great."

    And that is a very enjoyable thought.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 02-04-2012 at 07:55 AM.
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  6. #29

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Oh heck, lets just trade Tyler for a soft stretch 4.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    You and Mr Rose's boy Josh got benched by Mike Brown out in LA so maybe we should move Tyler there for Josh and you could be happy? I know they would do it, so what do think about that one?
    I would do that trade, immediately. The Lakers would never do it because Hansbrough both does not match their style of play and they likely have the additional insight from Murphy and McRoberts of what might be causing his poor play of late from their being with him through his troubles previously.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    I have the crow on simmer for some of you. Seth got a nice belly full, so there should be enough to go around.

    I don't know what is wrong with Tyler's game, but I've also seen other players on the team including Danny Granger looking pretty bad. Goodness, not long ago some of you were questioning whether Roy Hibbert would be a good backup C. Paul George wasn't playing aggressive and people were comparing him to Trevor Ariza.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Hey, we spanked the defending champs on their home court and there was no riot so all is good!
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    I would do that trade, immediately. The Lakers would never do it because Hansbrough both does not match their style of play and they likely have the additional insight from Murphy and McRoberts of what might be causing his poor play of late from their being with him through his troubles previously.
    Josh is out of their rotation right so he isn't fitting thier style of play either so they would make that deal in a heartbeat just to add an asset to put towards getting a D12 type player. My mind is blown that anyone would say otherwise honestly.

    Also They don't need to have Josh or Troy to know whats wrong with Tyler anyone who watches should see it clear as day. He's lost his aggressiveness by being programed to look pass, Its fixed as simple as saying here you go big boy here's the rock go be Tyler Hansbrough and get us 14 and 6 and just pass when you don't feel a shot.

    Those extra passes aren't helping the bench as its has seen around a 8 PPG dip in its averages since when we changed the offense and the rest of the bench players brick just as much as they did before.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    This was an important game. You could also tell that Vogel didn't trust the bench tonight. Which is a real shame cause our starters are more than likely going to be very tired for Orlando.

    Bench better show up tonight. Lance, please get your head on straight and have a breakout game. Be aggressive man!

    Hans has to be hiding some injury...probably a head injury. What in the world is going on with him. His D even sucks and it looks like he's trying to get into fights with players rather than play basketball. Just so weird and sad to watch him play.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    You can say you're right as on now because the limited touches has killed his PER, he was over 16 before the change in strategy shooting the same percentage. The second he gets back to getting a steady 8 shots a game everything will go back to its norm.

    I know Tyler has flaws that why I been outspoken about this change that takes away his positives, but haters like yourself and Mackey never want to give him any credit at all. Seth has seemed to be able to see his positives and I would be willing to bet Seth see's the mistake in how Tyler is getting used the last 10 games.

    The bench was far better when he wasn't passing 30.1 to 22.7 PPG so if his teammates said that to him they should stay out of coaching or management because they aren't very good at assessing strengths and weaknesses.

    You and Mr Rose's boy Josh got benched by Mike Brown out in LA so maybe we should move Tyler there for Josh and you could be happy? I know they would do it, so what do think about that one?
    What i say about that ? you just lost every right you had to argue when you started comparing me to other people and called me a "hater"
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    What i say about that ? you just lost every right you had to argue when you started comparing me to other people and called me a "hater"
    You are far from a Tyler fan as every post I've seen from you on him has been very negative.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    You are far from a Tyler fan as every post I've seen from you on him has been very negative.

    You couldn't be more right then with that post, I'm Indiana Pacers Fan, and I can "like" a player, miss him a minute, and support the next one in the shirt that bears that Large P.


    You have quite some archive to cover if you want to refer to my posts in the past, seeing as you only joined a few days ago.

    I suggest you take my advice and swallow the opinion some have of Tyler, leave it to your "MAN" to change the impression, I will always admit if i was wrong, so far however I get to say "I told you so"
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  17. #38
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Also if you are a fan of coaching then this matchup was for you.

    I was amazed by the back and forth between the coaches. We would make a run and then Carlyle would call a timeout and make adjustments then they would make a run and then Vogel would call a timeout and make adjustments and we would make another run……and back and forth and back and forth.

    We may have been watching the two best X and O’s coaches in the league last night.

    It was almost like a replay of the famous 1972 cold war chess match between Booby Fischer and Boris Spassky in Reykavik, Iceland.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    You have quite some archive to cover if you want to refer to my posts in the past, seeing as you only joined a few days ago.
    I signed exactly a month ago and read here a few weeks prior to that and every post I've seen from you on him has extremely negative. I don't know its been that way prior to then but with the way knocked him in those posts I have a hard time buying its a newly formed opinion.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Half of Tyler's offensive problems come down to his initial position when we start a set. I'm not sure why, but he often starts in a "weird" area. Often it's too far from the basket for him, but it's kind of hard to explain. "Out of system" (volleyball term) is the best phrase that I can come up with right now. Basically, his initial positioning is not letting him get into the flow of the offense. I don't know why - maybe just lack of practice or team "growing pains"?
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    I get real tired of Josh's name being brought up in every Hans discussion. They have nothing to do with each other, completely different skill sets, both bring good and bad things to the table.

    It's not required to hate one if you like the other, it's just silly. I wish we still had both.
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  23. #42
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    I think some of you recall Tyler getting blocked nearly every time, correct? You saw him adjust...at least I hope you all caught that...but many didn't think he could adjust. Others have forgotten that he did that. Now, the funeral procession on his game has started anew. I understand he's unorthodox, but I still contend his game translates. He just needs to learn how to play within the team concept Vogel has put in place.

    I will admit he is slow to adjust, but without question I know he will work hard and get the help necessary to make the adjustments.

    BTW, there's nothing wrong with his ability to defend mano-mano. He's not a great help guy, but neither is West. Neither block shots.

    I guess we'll see but I suspect in another month or two, he will come alive again and I will be serving up the crow. Hope y'all are hungry.

    BTW, I know his game is odd and hard to believe that it could be effective. But it is what it is. He is going to turn this around IMO...

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher99 View Post
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    Our star player is shooting a terrible percentage and he's shooting more than now than last year with despite more help around him. Plus the more shots Tyler gets on the regular the better he shoots as seen by his 49.9% as a starter.

    The key is do you want Tyler to shoot a poor percentage and get the line and cause foul trouble while getting under the other teams skin or do you want Price, Jones, Lou or Lance to shoot just as poor and get nothing added out of it.
    You're just going to have to wait a while. If Tyler can learn from this situation and build on what the staff and team is trying to do, eventually he'll play more like David West plays: Picking his moments so that the ball keeps moving and when it IS time to go to work, he'll recognize that too, and then his offense benefits because the majority of his attempts will be the highest percentage possible because he won't force it nearly as much.

    Actually West's game last night is a great template for how Tyler can eventually play if he learns from this. Pick his spots, take what is given, work the ball around, and I can easily envision him knocking down pick/pop jumpers from mid range and blowing by his man on face ups from mid range for layups, that dinky hook shot/flick of his, dunks, and hopefully some fouls again (he really is getting screwed there lately; those are real fouls they are not calling).

    I think the painful transition we're watching right now can very much be worth it once we reach the other end of the tunnel.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Mostly want to give a shout out to DC. His last few games have been among his best as a Pacer. We aren't playing like strangers anymore. Shifting defenses aren't throwing us off.

    Dunno on Tyler. I can say this, he has to adjust and find his spots. Dallas collapsed down against us, so his and Roy's numbers aren't surprising. I'll say this, though -- David and Paul made them pay for that strategy in blood.

    I don't think Tyler has a future right now scoring in the paint. He has to have room, and he has to pin his man on his left shoulder. That isn't enough. He would be well advised to watch how West works. His base should be the pick and fade, with leverage and up fakes closer in. That's how it's done with his toolset. West always moves to a spot to make himself an option, and he keeps his head when challenged.

    EDIT. Posted same time as Hicks. Lol. Change to "what Hicks said"
    Last edited by danman; 02-04-2012 at 11:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    I just want to comment on how GREAT our starting unit has played these last two games. It's like something clicked and they are playing much better basketball as a team. It's been a joy to watch.

    This is why I've never preferred facilitators to scorers: I believe it can be like this where the scorers learn to share and trust on their own, leading to something very powerful. They may not pass as well as the facilitators, but their individual games put such pressure on the D that they don't really need anything spectacular, they just need to make the basic reads and passes to work the ball around and/or find the right guy in a place where he can go to work. Love it.

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  31. #46

    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I just want to comment on how GREAT our starting unit has played these last two games. It's like something clicked and they are playing much better basketball as a team. It's been a joy to watch.

    This is why I've never preferred facilitators to scorers: I believe it can be like this where the scorers learn to share and trust on their own, leading to something very powerful. They may not pass as well as the facilitators, but their individual games put such pressure on the D that they don't really need anything spectacular, they just need to make the basic reads and passes to work the ball around and/or find the right guy in a place where he can go to work. Love it.
    This is why teams like the 90's Bulls, 2000's Spurs and Lakers are champions despite not having great facilitators. If we look at the lineups of those teams that won the titles for their teams, none have great facilitators, but rather they have players that know their roles, have the specific strengths on offense, and have great trust in their teammates' capabilities to score. Their players are more read-and-react types that knows where to position and gets the ball to the best option by great ball movement by everybody on the team.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    In response to Peck's question about this Pacers roster comparing to other Pacers rosters, I would say they still have a lot of work to do in the playoffs before we can ever compare apples-to-apples. BUT, watching the game last night, my mom said "this team is a lot different than it was when Carlisle was here, isn't it?" And I thought about that and decided it's actually not. Winning with defense, very good post-players (Roy/West, JO/Miller), smart coaching, sharing the ball (more now than before, but between JO, Ron, SJax, and Reggie, they did share some). The only difference is we don't have Reggie anymore...then Paul George hits 7 threes and goes for 30 points!

    This team is rising fast and with some good showings in the playoffs in the next couple years, they're going to be right there with some of the old Pacers teams we all loved.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    What is crazy to me is that I still don't think we have played that much up to our potential. Take Paul George. Basically he hit a bunch of threes tonight. I loved it, it was fun to watch. But he really didn't make that many nice moves or go to the rack and draw fouls, the things real superstars do to be consistent high scorers.
    Yes, I agree with this sentiment entirely. Almost all of his points came from 3s and breakaways. I think it's a little premature to say that PG has "broken out." There will be nights when defenders do not let him get any open looks at 3, and I'm not confident at this point he will be able to generate offense. His shooting form this year is a huge step in his overall development, but there is still much work to be done for him to be a consistent offensive player.

  34. #49
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I'm an advocate of acquiring a new point guard and sending DC to the second unit.

    That said, I agree with you. I'll give credit where it's due. He has played extremely well.
    I'm starting to wonder if instead of a trade, we make a legit run at Steve Nash in free agency this off season. The Pacers have the 4th best record in the entire NBA right now. If you are making a list of "contender teams", the Pacers are knocking on the door.

    I'm thinking a call from a guy like Larry Bird gets Nash's attention, just like with West. We can also pay him more than many other contending teams who are up against the luxury tax. Sign him to a two year deal at slightly above MLE money, more than the capped out teams can pay.

    Why is this such a great idea? Darren Collison. DC would arguably be the best backup PG in the NBA. Nash is old so its likely they split time, keeping DC in a big enough role to keep him happy. You also have a very capable player to step in if injuries or father time catch up with Nash.

    I like it much better than trying to trade DC for Nash.
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  36. #50
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Lassoing the Mavericks

    In Tyler's defense, Vince Carter played out of his butt against us last night. He always seems to play out of his butt against us. Watching him school Tyler was kind of painful sometimes. But he schooled Paul George a couple of times too.

    Offensively, Tyler's not gonna do particularly well when people are zoning us, as Dallas did a lot last night. I might be wrong on this, but Tyler is a misfit when we're being zoned because he is such a poor passer. Beating a zone requires penetration and a kick. With Tyler, there's never a good kick out for an open jumper. It's more of a pass inside with Tyler invariably then doing his bull it inside thing. He also has his limitations as a dribbler, so with Tyler you don't get the DW-like penetration followed by a baby hook at the rim.

    The above said, for all his limitations, we've all seen what Tyler's capable of. He's hard to handle underneath one-on-one and when his jumper's dropping (as it was in the past) he's a dangerous offensive player.

    I think he's in a funk. When open jumpers don't fall, its more a funk thing than other teams adjusting to, and negating him. I think he'll pull out of it.
    Last edited by IndyHoya; 02-04-2012 at 12:23 PM.

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