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Thread: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

  1. #1

    Default How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Yes, we've had a talent upgrade in West and Hill. But West has struggled a lot at times, and the overall second unit hasn't played too well.

    And yes, the younger guys (DC, Roy and PG specifically) have gotten better over the summer, but they still are similar players.


    He hasn't had time to practice with his team and he's never had a full training camp.

    We're talking about a coach that has taken a team, with largely the same players, from "unlikely to make the playoffs" to "tied for the third fewest losses in the league" in a year.

    I think it's really unbelievable what this guy has been able to do. He's clearly a great motivator. He makes good adjustments and he learns quickly. The only obvious flaw I've seen is that sometimes he puts poor player combinations on the floor.

    I just think it's amazing what the Pacers seem to have lucked into.

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  3. #2
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Barring a collapse, he's also the next COTY.

    The last time our head coach won this award, we went to the ECF.

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  5. #3

    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Barring a collapse, he's also the next COTY.
    I really hope so.

    He's just so darn loveable too.

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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Sure we upgraded in talent and our young guys improved. But what I love about Vogel is that he has our guys playing to their strengths! Its just so refreshing to see. I do have some concerns, like our offense being down right putrid at times, our defense always over helping and some questionable substitution patterns, but we are 13-6 and have only played 6 games at home. Who am I to question this? Vogel is clearly doing something right and I am enjoying it.

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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    It's too early to say, but there are some definite positives.

    It's amazing how significant a simple change can be. Right now his changes are simple. Outside to inside, fast paced to slow paced, take the first open shot to take a good shot; these are all things that better fit the talent of the team.

    The first time I was really impressed with Vogel was in the playoffs. Out of nowhere we played team defense that I didn't think we were capable of. And now we're starting to see some more obvious strategies seep into the gameplans. Tonight was the perfect example in how we pressured their ballhandlers. Against Chicago last week it was switching the defense on Rose late to our most favorable matchup.

    We've seen Danny Granger and Dahntay Jones slowly transform their shot-selection. That is a huge undertaking for both players in such a short period of time. Both players and coaches deserve the credit on that. By the way, this is how Dahntay played in Denver and this is why I was thrilled to get him. What encourages me the most is that George Karl might be the best offensive coach currently in the NBA, so Dahntay *should* have looked better in Karl's system.

    We've seen Darren Collison slowly transform into a decent defender, using his speed to break up plays in transition and pressure the ballhandler. This is the defense Darren played at UCLA and partly at New Orleans. He has a ways to go but there is a visible change.

    We've seen Roy's ability to seal off his defender and actively pursue rebounds improve dramatically. I'm not sure how much of this is the coach but it didn't happen in his previous seasons, even when he was bigger.

    There are definitely some holes/flaws. My main concern is whether or not he can create an offense that works efficiently and involves more passing. I still think Hill and Stephenson are being misused and it needs to be Tyler in the pick and pops, not Lou. Some players need some major teaching/instruction on their decision-making. But given the shortage of time, I've been very impressed with Frank's (and the other coaches) job so far. Let's hope this growth continues.

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  10. #6

    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    I think Vogel has realy done so well as a coach. The early record speaks for itself. The team stats, especially on defense, show the vast improvement of the team. The team buying into his system tells you how much the players believe in him.

    The poor rotation sometimes is probably part of having a tight schedule plus lack of time for practice, but he adjusts his lineups well in general. I believe as the season goes on, the rotations and familiarity on-court, especially among the bench guys will improve.

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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Barring a collapse, he's also the next COTY.

    The last time our head coach won this award, we went to the ECF.
    I hope so, but what about Doug Collins if Philly keeps it up? Not that Vogel shouldn't, if Philly and the Pacers end up with identical records, who will get the votes?

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    thx4tehmRys Danny! daschysta's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersFan1991 View Post
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    I hope so, but what about Doug Collins if Philly keeps it up? Not that Vogel shouldn't, if Philly and the Pacers end up with identical records, who will get the votes?
    Philly had the better record last year, i'd imagine Frank would get it on the basis that the Pacers improved more than the Sixers.

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    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    I'll just phrase it like stephen colbert would

    Frank Vogel...great coach....or the greatest coach?

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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    The best part is that it seems like all these guys will die for Vogel in battle. Astounding turnaround. Excellent coaching by both him and Collins this year.

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    future dragon trainer Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    He's absolutely-no-doubt-about-it got the hearts and minds of every player in the palm of his hand. I'm far from some x's and o's savant, but I do worry a bit he's got Roy specifically playing above his head, but whatever. The emotional/leadership/confidence/whatever ya wanna call it aspect is what I think's most important for a pro coach, and Frank unquestionably has that. I'm very happy Dan Burke's still on the staff, but I'm even happier to eat my "why the hell'd they give this Vogel dude the gig over Burke" words.

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  20. #12

    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    I think he does a great job considering he has had no time as you have said. He has been adjusting on the fly as a first year full-time coach. Though obviously his prior ties with the organization probably help to facilitate the transition more.

    He is great with the Xs and Os. He has a great basketball mind. He is great at analyzing video and drawing up scouting reports.He has a great sense of optimism, and believes in his players and they will play their hearts out for him some nights. We haven't got to the every night level, but no team every does. Hell we are only one loss out of the top spot in the East.

    Everything that seemed impossible under JOB, now seems possible under Vogel. It's like the whole team has done a 180. The West signing was huge because it allows Tyler to grow and learn how to deal with the counter maneuvers teams have thrown at him. Before Vogel the tape wasn't out on Tyler yet I feel. JOB kept him on a tight leash. He is still starting quality IMO, but this allows him to work out the bugs and stay fresh. By the end of the year Tyler may be deadly, and Vogel is a big reason for that. Vogel has always believed in Tyler and Tyler will always go harder than anyone on the court for him. I think this is rubbing off on West because I just don't remember him being this physical. Tyler may have really changed the culture of our front court, and Vogel enabled him. Foster gets a lot of credit for this as well. Let's face it, the only players that I even considered smash mouth last year were Tyler and Foster until Vogel took over, and maybe Dahntay gets an honorable mention. Now Granger and George both seem to have embraced it, and we added a great amount of more smash mouth style with Hill, West, Pendergraph, and Amundson.

    Vogel takes heat for his anemic rotations at time, but these teams are always great defensively I think. Sure sometimes the second unit has a little trouble scoring but the other team isn't necessarily lighting them up. I've seen the second unit get us back in games from their defense and hustle. Amundson really is very Foster like. He is better than anyone gives him credit for defensively and rebounding wise. He is also pretty decent at attacking the basket. His leaping ability reminds me of McRoberts.

    So I think Vogel has done great. He also has a very strong coaching staff around him so I think he does a great job processing what they are telling him and adjusting accordingly. I don't know what it is there is just something about him that since the day we hired him as the interim coach, that very first interview I just knew we found our coach of the future. I guess it was just intuition, but I believe Vogel is going to have a long coaching career.

    He is like the anti-Jim Caldwell. He makes a bad team good with just a slightly different line-up. Obviously Peyton is the GOAT and this may not be the best example but you get my drift. He coached us to the playoffs and regardless of what the 4-1 looks like, we actually competed with the team with the best record and literally almost had them and let them off the hook. He had no off season and we are sitting at 13-6 and I honestly feel we are underachieving because everyone is still learning on the fly, especially Hill and West. Underachieving and we are 1 loss behind the Bulls? Yea Vogel definitely is a good coach.
    Last edited by Midcoasted; 01-30-2012 at 05:24 AM.

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  22. #13
    Droppin' knowledge, yo. Mackey_Rose's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    The best comparison I can think of for Frank Vogel, is Brad Stevens.

    That's a very, very good thing.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    here is what I posted in another thread, but it applies here. new coach, new players and improved young players - all 3 are the reasons why the team is much better.

    The transformation of the Pacers has been quite remarkable. No I am not talking about from a bad team into a good team - we won't know until the playoffs because that is almost all that matters in the NBA, but what is quite remarkable is the transformation from a pretty soft team into a smashmouth very tough team.

    It does remind me a lot of 1993 transforming to 1994. If you look back we changed coaches, added A. Davis, Byron Scott, Woody and traded for McKey. What that did was changed us from a soft team into a very physically tough team. Flash ahead to now and we changed coaches, added Hill and West and Roy has become a different player a vastly different player.

    Niether time did we change the core of the team, but both times some young players came of age and both times a few veterans were added and both times a new coach came in.

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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    I don't think I've seen this mentioned yet.

    What is really striking to me is the strength of our play coming out of halftime.

    Last year, it always seemed that the 3rd quarter was the worst for our team: lackadaisical, bored, inept etc. Other teams were adjusting to us and taking us out of our game. We would lose games in the 3rd quarter.

    Now it seems as if the 3rd quarter is one of our strongest. I look at last night's game against Orlando as a perfect example. Frank is making the adjustments at the half. We are winning games by our 3rd quarter play alone. (Plus, we seem to be able to close games out now, but that's worthy of a separate post...)

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  28. #16
    On the Vogel Wagon gummy's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Someone (can't remember who) said last week in a game thread that he didn't think Vogel had any idea what to do with a clipboard during a timeout. Thankfully most people haven't been that extreme in their rhetoric but there has been a small handful of people that say or imply that Coach Vogel is a "only" motivator.

    We're better coming out of timeouts than we were early last year - in fact, for years under JOB I had very little hope that we would score out of a timeout. Now it's no longer a surprise when we do. We make adjustments at the half. Several players have talked about Vogel doing this or that thing for them this season, like this:

    "Vogel made sure to run some plays for Hill early.

    "I'm still new to this team," Hill said. "A lot of the guys have been here. The coach did a couple of things that I was familiar with. He put in a couple of new plays that got me going, that worked well for us, especially the second unit."
    http://www.indystar.com/article/2012...t-Magic-106-85

    Players on opposing teams have made a point to call the Pacers well coached. Some Bulls player (can't remember, it was posted recently) said how impressed he was that Vogel made the adjustments to hang with their coach during the playoffs last year. The man knows basketball, even if his strategies don't work right away. It's a process, like force feeding Danny in the post. It looked ugly at first and a number of people were calling for it to stop. But they stuck with putting him down there a few times per game. Danny has gotten a lot better and the post-up is becoming another go to move for Granger. It's clear that Vogel is more than a rah-rah cheerleader. He has expectations and he inspires the guys to want to meet them. He has put his imprint on the roster in a big time way - these guys get their sense of team identity through him, his leadership and his strategies for putting them in the best position to succeed.

    I can't wait to see what he does in a normal season with a training camp and regular practices. I think only Doug Collins is competition for Vogel when it comes to the COY award at this point.
    "Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

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    Michael Pina, Red94: "There are so many different ways the Pacers can beat you. They have an All-Star scoring threat, imposing figures on the front line, steady point guard play, and most importantly, a defense that'll choke the life out of just about every offense that crosses its path."

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  30. #17
    Indiana Pacers Forever Pacer Fan's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    The verdict is still out!

  31. #18
    The Doctor's In The House TheDon's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    The verdict is still out!
    gonna go ahead and write down "the greatest" for you

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  33. #19

    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by gummy View Post
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    Players on opposing teams have made a point to call the Pacers well coached. Some Bulls player (can't remember, it was posted recently) said how impressed he was that Vogel made the adjustments to hang with their coach during the playoffs last year.
    Brewer.


    By me ^^

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  35. #20

    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by IndySDExport View Post
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    I don't think I've seen this mentioned yet.

    What is really striking to me is the strength of our play coming out of halftime.

    Last year, it always seemed that the 3rd quarter was the worst for our team: lackadaisical, bored, inept etc. Other teams were adjusting to us and taking us out of our game. We would lose games in the 3rd quarter.

    Now it seems as if the 3rd quarter is one of our strongest. I look at last night's game against Orlando as a perfect example. Frank is making the adjustments at the half. We are winning games by our 3rd quarter play alone. (Plus, we seem to be able to close games out now, but that's worthy of a separate post...)
    I said once that teams that great third quarter teams are teams that win a lot.

    Originally, I simply consider the first and last four minutes of the game, as well as the four minutes before and after halftime, to be the most important of the game. So if you come out in the third well, you've got a good shot at winning.

    But I think you could go further with the "teams that win are usually good third quarter teams" because it certainly suggests that either there are some really good locker-room leaders, and the coach is adjusting, motivating etc..at half, when he's got time to talk to his guys.

    So I really think that being a good third quarter team is really an indication of a really good coach.

  36. #21
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    I think there are two different questions

    How good of a coach is Frank Vogel? Way to early in his career to determine.

    How good of a job is he doing this season with this team? he's doing great. I don't see how anyone could give him anything other than an A.


    In general though great coaches do bad jobs with certain teams. Look at Larry Brown's last year as Pacers coach - even he will admit he didn't handle things the right way. But he's still a great coach. We won't be able to answer that question about Frank for many years. (many men did a great job for a season or two or with a certain type of team and yet weren't great or even good coaches)

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  38. #22
    On the Vogel Wagon gummy's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think there are two different questions

    How good of a coach is Frank Vogel? Way to early in his career to determine.

    How good of a job is he doing this season with this team? he's doing great. I don't see how anyone could give him anything other than an A.

    In general though great coaches do bad jobs with certain teams. Look at Larry Brown's last year as Pacers coach - even he will admit he didn't handle things the right way. But he's still a great coach. We won't be able to answer that question about Frank for many years. (many men did a great job for a season or two or with a certain type of team and yet weren't great or even good coaches)
    Fair enough! I can't disagree with any of that.

    I'll just say I'm excited to see how it turns out in the years to come, because I think there's a not insignificant chance that Frank Vogel becomes a really good coach over the long haul. It's been quite awhile since I've felt this way about our team - the "I really want to see how this turns out," feeling - and I'm not sure I've ever felt that way about a coach, but I do about Vogel. I'm unashamed to admit that I've been nursing a bit of a coaching crush on Mr. V for awhile now.
    "Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

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    Michael Pina, Red94: "There are so many different ways the Pacers can beat you. They have an All-Star scoring threat, imposing figures on the front line, steady point guard play, and most importantly, a defense that'll choke the life out of just about every offense that crosses its path."

  39. #23
    Shooting for the Moon Day-V's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    I love Frank Vogel. He could tell me to run through a concrete wall right now, and I'd totally do it.

  40. #24
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    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    I love Frank Vogel. He could tell me to run through a concrete wall right now, and I'd totally do it.
    He told me it was okay for you to do it. Have at it, bud!

    Nah, I know Davey has a major Man-Crush on Frank. He deserves it. I think he's doing a decent job with these guys, so I'll give him a high regard.

    Overall, still too early in his career to go too overboard.

  41. #25

    Default Re: How Good of a coach is Frank Vogel

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    I love Frank Vogel. He could tell me to run through a concrete wall right now, and I'd totally do it.
    Oh Yeaaaaah!!!!!

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