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Thread: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    I've been a big fan of DC's since he got here, and I think he definitely takes too much heat on this board. Honestly, a lot of folks say he shoots too much, or is a shoot-first PG, but tell me which of his shots tonight were ill-advised or bad shots? His little floater in the lane just keeps getting better. His 3-point shot has been the biggest improvement from last year to this year. And he's got a nifty little stop-n-pop, too.

    He's not going to be confused with Steve Nash or CP3, and I get that. If we could make a trade for Deron Williams, I'd be as excited as anyone (because I really think he'd make us a contender).

    But, DC is in his 3rd year. He's shown marked improvement over last year already. His defense has been a huge improvement as well. He has the confidence of this team, and the chemistry with these guys to succeed. Basically, I have one BIG question about DC's future, and that is this:

    Why does no one here talk about how much DC can improve like we talk about PG24, Hibbert, or even Lance?

    He's gotten better since he's been here, and in only his 3rd year, why do we assume that's going to stop? How many elite point guards really rose to prominence after 5 years in the NBA? Quite a few, I'm guessing. For example, Nash was in his 5th year when he finally started 70 games, averaging 15 pts and 7 asts. His best years were in his 8th, 9th, and 10th seasons. Chauncey Billups was on his 5th team in 8 years before anyone knew who he was. I don't know if DC will ever reach Billups' level, and certainly Nash is on another level above that. But, my point is, DC is in his 3rd year and he's leading this team to a darn good record with solid play and great effort every night.

    Give him a little more time and maybe he learns and grows and develops into a real stud.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I don't think I've seen a guy's game look so different from one season to the next.... Everything about Stephenson's game is different from last year. He's not putting up any numbers yet, but it's really impressive how much his game has fundamentally shifted towards a team concept.

    If he can change that much (by building on this much better foundation) again before next season, I could see him becoming an actual contributor to a winning Pacers team.
    I think it is off the court as much as on. I think he is starting to embrace his teammates, & they are embracing him. Last year the positive comments about Lance by his teammates seemed forced. This year I hyave heard Hibbert call Lance "his boy" when talking him up, seen him an Dantay act like they are life long buds on the bench, & watched him care more about getting teammates stats at the end of games in mop up duty then using it as a "Lance show".
    IMO this is where you are seeing C.Kellog & B.Shaw influence, as well as that of D.West & G.Hill all bringing "professionalism" to this young core. And, to his part, you are seeing Lance grow the most wgere he needed the most growth. I aggree with you, it looks like it is starting to come together for him. I hope this continues for Lance & for this team!
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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    I've been a big fan of DC's since he got here, and I think he definitely takes too much heat on this board. Honestly, a lot of folks say he shoots too much, or is a shoot-first PG, but tell me which of his shots tonight were ill-advised or bad shots? His little floater in the lane just keeps getting better. His 3-point shot has been the biggest improvement from last year to this year. And he's got a nifty little stop-n-pop, too.

    He's not going to be confused with Steve Nash or CP3, and I get that. If we could make a trade for Deron Williams, I'd be as excited as anyone (because I really think he'd make us a contender).

    But, DC is in his 3rd year. He's shown marked improvement over last year already. His defense has been a huge improvement as well. He has the confidence of this team, and the chemistry with these guys to succeed. Basically, I have one BIG question about DC's future, and that is this:

    Why does no one here talk about how much DC can improve like we talk about PG24, Hibbert, or even Lance?

    He's gotten better since he's been here, and in only his 3rd year, why do we assume that's going to stop? How many elite point guards really rose to prominence after 5 years in the NBA? Quite a few, I'm guessing. For example, Nash was in his 5th year when he finally started 70 games, averaging 15 pts and 7 asts. His best years were in his 8th, 9th, and 10th seasons. Chauncey Billups was on his 5th team in 8 years before anyone knew who he was. I don't know if DC will ever reach Billups' level, and certainly Nash is on another level above that. But, my point is, DC is in his 3rd year and he's leading this team to a darn good record with solid play and great effort every night.

    Give him a little more time and maybe he learns and grows and develops into a real stud.
    DC is better this year, he was tearing it up in the 1st quarter and they couldn't do a thing about it. I think alot of it has to do with Coach Vogel. We use DC to his strength, which is lots of screen and rolls.

    When it comes to potential, he can certainly get better by adding tricks and better shots, but I don't know how much he can improve court vision and anticipation, which is where his biggest weakness is. Maybe a little?

    You can't compare the potential to a guy like Paul. Paul has more upside because he is a 6'10" shooting guard who is quick enough to guard point guards. The sky is the limit for that kid having already won the genetic lottery.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I disagree. DC's not any more of a PG than he is IMO. They're both scorers who can occasionally make a pass. Hell, that one handed pass Hill whipped in for the Hansbrough finish tonight is something I don't ever recall DC making/doing.

    I think the offense would be largely the same. The only difference would be the 1 is slower but bigger/stronger. I think it would be a net positive after they had time to gel. Our defense could be truly elite with that group.
    Collison had 10 assists tonight. You know how many times George Hill has had double digit assists? One time... in his entire career. Collison has done it 20 times, he has also had games with 18, and 20 assists.

    I realize Collison may not be the ideal floor general, but this idea that you could just swap out Hill for Collison with no drop off for the offense is ridiculous. Collison has played PG his entire basketball career, he's a scoring PG, but he knows how to play the position.

    George Hill has always been a scorer. He can pass the ball ok, but he has never had to truly run a team at any level. If George Hill was taller it wouldn't even be a discussion, IMO.
    Last edited by Infinite MAN_force; 01-30-2012 at 12:23 AM.
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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    I was comparing DC and Hills numbers on defense from 82games. I've really, really learned to trust that site. Most of my defensive suspicions have been backed up by the stats on that site. Generally that the only guys in the rotation that aren't doing their job defensively are Stephenson, Amundson (at C only) and Hansbrough. I'm willing to give a pass to Stephenson and Amundson for a lack of minutes so it could easily be skewed by 1 bad game.

    What really caught my eye was the stats that clearly show George Hill does better on offense at SG, and better on defense at PG. It's an idea that I've gotten in my head over the year, but the stats clearly show it's not just in my head. It's on the court too.

    Usually stats don't correlate so directly with what I think I'm seeing, but they sure do.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    I love it when people uses assists to make a case that one guy is more point guard than the other, I'm still waiting for the assist to turn over ratio comparisons to Steve Nash one more time.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I love it when people uses assists to make a case that one guy is more point guard than the other, I'm still waiting for the assist to turn over ratio comparisons to Steve Nash one more time.
    Do you enjoy taking things out of context, or do you really do it on accident because you don't realize you're doing it? Curious.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Will the Danny Granger haters please stand up.....

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Think about this one. If you HAD to give up DC or George Hill, who would you part with? I consider that easy to answer. I would help DC pack and move Hill into the starting line-up. Defense is half the game, and Hill is better at it. Hill and DC are about equal on offense. Both good players, but Hill has size and an edge to his game that I like. ...and at crunch time, I don't think it's a close call. Hill seems to play well under pressure...and DC looks to be the type to choke. JMHO.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    Generally that the only guys in the rotation that aren't doing their job defensively are Stephenson, Amundson (at C only) and Hansbrough. I'm willing to give a pass to Stephenson and Amundson for a lack of minutes so it could easily be skewed by 1 bad game.
    Let alone that Lou isn't even a C to begin with so he is always forced in defending taller guys

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Think about this one. If you HAD to give up DC or George Hill, who would you part with? I consider that easy to answer. I would help DC pack and move Hill into the starting line-up. Defense is half the game, and Hill is better at it. Hill and DC are about equal on offense. Both good players, but Hill has size and an edge to his game that I like. ...and at crunch time, I don't think it's a close call. Hill seems to play well under pressure...and DC looks to be the type to choke. JMHO.
    It's not so clear cut for me. I would have a hard time deciding really. I would want to see how George Hill does running the team for a couple months first. Both play good defense and both are good shooters. Hill has that sweet... euro step... is that what they call it?

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Think about this one. If you HAD to give up DC or George Hill, who would you part with? I consider that easy to answer. I would help DC pack and move Hill into the starting line-up. Defense is half the game, and Hill is better at it. Hill and DC are about equal on offense. Both good players, but Hill has size and an edge to his game that I like. ...and at crunch time, I don't think it's a close call. Hill seems to play well under pressure...and DC looks to be the type to choke. JMHO.
    It's a pretty easy call for me as well, and I'm keeping DC. That said, I love Hill's offensive and defensive contributions but the guy is simply not a point guard and we should probably try to keep at least one on the roster.

    Everytime DC comes off the floor our offense begins to stagnate. Any time Frank has the bright idea to play Hill at the point with Jones at the 2 our offense becomes a trainwreck. DC certainly has his flaws, but he is our best PG and I don't think it's really even close.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Think about this one. If you HAD to give up DC or George Hill, who would you part with? I consider that easy to answer. I would help DC pack and move Hill into the starting line-up. Defense is half the game, and Hill is better at it. Hill and DC are about equal on offense. Both good players, but Hill has size and an edge to his game that I like. ...and at crunch time, I don't think it's a close call. Hill seems to play well under pressure...and DC looks to be the type to choke. JMHO.
    I'm shipping out Hill.

    Out of the numbers I looked up that I referred to earlier, Collison is holding his opposing player to 44.2% eFG%. Note that it's eFG% and essentially gives a bonus to any 3 point shots made. So the guy he is guarding is really shooting what? 42% on the year? Just a guess, but sounds realistic. He's doing fine on defense. Hill is doing better on defense, but Collison is doing very good.

    Then switch it to offense, and at the PG position Hill is almost literally getting 1/3 of the assist rate that Collison is. The per 48 minute production at the PG position for Hill is 2.9 assists, and 2.6 turnovers. For Collison it's 7.4 assists and 2.8 turnovers. Offensively there just isn't any comparison from the eye test for me, and the stats bear it out as well.

    This doesn't even get into the discussion about Collison playing more time against starters than Hill, or Hill's wild swings of being in funks or playing well. The starting PG spot needs stability.

    I stated a lot of numbers, but they pretty much all sum up what I see on the court as well. Collison can run the offense on an above average level, and Hill struggles with it.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    I'm shipping out Hill.

    Out of the numbers I looked up that I referred to earlier, Collison is holding his opposing player to 44.2% eFG%. Note that it's eFG% and essentially gives a bonus to any 3 point shots made. So the guy he is guarding is really shooting what? 42% on the year? Just a guess, but sounds realistic. He's doing fine on defense. Hill is doing better on defense, but Collison is doing very good.

    Then switch it to offense, and at the PG position Hill is almost literally getting 1/3 of the assist rate that Collison is. The per 48 minute production at the PG position for Hill is 2.9 assists, and 2.6 turnovers. For Collison it's 7.4 assists and 2.8 turnovers. Offensively there just isn't any comparison from the eye test for me, and the stats bear it out as well.

    This doesn't even get into the discussion about Collison playing more time against starters than Hill, or Hill's wild swings of being in funks or playing well. The starting PG spot needs stability.

    I stated a lot of numbers, but they pretty much all sum up what I see on the court as well. Collison can run the offense on an above average level, and Hill struggles with it.

    So Collison is holding opposite players to 42% and the average player in the NBA is shooting all times low around 42/43% I think? I don't think you can trust those numbers.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    Do you enjoy taking things out of context, or do you really do it on accident because you don't realize you're doing it? Curious.
    You mean taking things out of context like you guys are doing right now? Hicks is bringing up and idea and all the DC protectors jump out of their holes to tell Hicks how wrong he is and how he dares to call DC a shooting guard? I was just an idea and you guys are just too sensitive to even think about it.

    It's usually a "OMG how dare you call DC a shooting guard if he had 10 assists today" or the "OMG you didn't see the one behind the back pass that pretty much shows that he is a point guard"?

    By the way Paul Pierce, Monta and Kobe average more assists per game than Darren making them legit point guards to some people here
    Last edited by vnzla81; 01-30-2012 at 02:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Is there really any way that DC can please you besides being traded?

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Is there really any way that DC can please you besides being traded?
    You have to read my posts more often so you don't make comments like this.

    I've said many times that I like DC but not as an starting point guard he is just not that good, he is to me the perfect second unit guy that you give a green light so he can score at will, I have also mentioned multiple times that I recognize that his value is high reason why I think that he could be a piece to actually bring an true starting point guard here, note that if I was thinking that he was garbage as many think here I wouldn't think that him with picks could net us a good player.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So Collison is holding opposite players to 42% and the average player in the NBA is shooting all times low around 42/43% I think? I don't think you can trust those numbers.
    And your point is what? At the very least, those numbers show that collison is an average defender. I don't know why you dislike him so much. He has greatly improved his defense from last year to this year and I don't see why he can't continue to improve. The only thing I want him to really focus on is court vision and turn over ratio. But he's a solid point guard and a solid player on this team. Not trying to overstep my grounds as a forum newbie, but it seems that 99% of your posts revolve around being overly critical of Pacer's players. The grass is always greener...

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    You have to read my posts more often so you don't make comments like this.

    I've said many times that I like DC but not as an starting point guard he is just not that good, he is to me the perfect second unit guy that you give a green light so he can score at will, I have also mentioned multiple times that I recognize that his value is high reason why I think that he could be a piece to actually bring an true starting point guard here, note that if I was thinking that he was garbage as many think here I wouldn't think that him with picks could net us a good player.
    This post makes more sense. I agree that would be an optimal situation. But DC would likely be the best point guard coming off any bench in the league(I guess you could make an argument for Chancey in LA). I think DC is at or near the top half of the league as far as point guards go. Sure he's no Williams, CP3, or Nash...but you could do worse than having a talented, developing point guard that has good team chemistry.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessen View Post
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    And your point is what? At the very least, those numbers show that collison is an average defender. I don't know why you dislike him so much. He has greatly improved his defense from last year to this year and I don't see why he can't continue to improve. The only thing I want him to really focus on is court vision and turn over ratio. But he's a solid point guard and a solid player on this team. Not trying to overstep my grounds as a forum newbie, but it seems that 99% of your posts revolve around being overly critical of Pacer's players. The grass is always greener...
    Just like I told the other guy, read the other posts before making this type of claims.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    You have to read my posts more often so you don't make comments like this.

    I've said many times that I like DC but not as an starting point guard he is just not that good, he is to me the perfect second unit guy that you give a green light so he can score at will, I have also mentioned multiple times that I recognize that his value is high reason why I think that he could be a piece to actually bring an true starting point guard here, note that if I was thinking that he was garbage as many think here I wouldn't think that him with picks could net us a good player.
    I do read your posts. And I understand your points, really. I just disagree with them.

    DC is only 24. He can develop his game a lot and I sincerely believe that he can be our PG of the future.

    Getting a star point guard (because that's what you're asking in reality since you're not asking for the likes of Nash or Felton) could make us better but it could also ruin our chemistry (let alone that it could potentially deplete our core).

    I will agree that court vision is not DC's strongest point. But he can improve it. Working alongside a PG that can run the pick will do miracles for him. Court vision can be improved. Getting Dragic to be our backup PG would heavily benefit DC and wouldn't deplete our core.

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    Post Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    I do read your posts. And I understand your points, really. I just disagree with them.

    DC is only 24. He can develop his game a lot and I sincerely believe that he can be our PG of the future.

    Getting a star point guard (because that's what you're asking in reality since you're not asking for the likes of Nash or Felton) could make us better but it could also ruin our chemistry (let alone that it could potentially deplete our core).

    I will agree that court vision is not DC's strongest point. But he can improve it. Working alongside a PG that can run the pick will do miracles for him. Court vision can be improved. Getting Dragic to be our backup PG would heavily benefit DC and wouldn't deplete our core.
    I've been asking for Nash or Felton for years and yes I agree that he is young and all that but like I've say like a thousand times floor vision and passing ability to me is a thing you are born with and DC doesn't have that, he is pretty like TJ Ford before everybody realized that he was not a true point guard, 3 teams were fooled by TJ thinking that he was the answer I could see the same thing happening here.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I've been asking for Nash or Felton for years and yes I agree that he is young and all that but like I've say like a thousand times floor vision and passing ability to me is a thing you are born with and DC doesn't have that, he is pretty like TJ Ford before everybody realized that he was not a true point guard, 3 teams were fooled by TJ thinking that he was the answer I could see the same thing happening here.
    Well, I'm only reading PD this year and I haven't see you being particular positive about Nash or Felton. It could be my mistake, I guess.

    Passing ability can be learned. Running a pick and roll can be learned. I see it constantly in Europe. Young PGs just learn how to run a pick and roll and split defenses by PGs who have more experience in the league. That's why you see that PGs who come to the NBA from Europe (even by being born there like Dragic, Udrih, Calderon or Beaubois or by playing there like Jennings) can run the offense better than other PGs of their talent level. Because they learned how to do it.

    PS: The comparison you made with TJ Ford just reinforced my opinion that you are biased about DC.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuntius View Post
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    Well, I'm only reading PD this year and I haven't see you being particular positive about Nash or Felton. It could be my mistake, I guess.

    Passing ability can be learned. Running a pick and roll can be learned. I see it constantly in Europe. Young PGs just learn how to run a pick and roll and split defenses by PGs who have more experience in the league. That's why you see that PGs who come to the NBA from Europe (even by being born there like Dragic, Udrih, Calderon or Beaubois or by playing there like Jennings) can run the offense better than other PGs of their talent level. Because they learned how to do it.

    PS: The comparison you made with TJ Ford just reinforced my opinion that you are biased about DC.
    Given their size, poor court vision/passing ability, and mid-range game, i can see the DC/tJ Ford comparison. Everyone wants to say he's "young" well so are D.rose, Westbrook, Lawson, Holliday, and the list goes on. DC is an avg PG at best.

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    Default Re: Pacers/Magic postgame thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Given their size, poor court vision/passing ability, and mid-range game, i can see the DC/tJ Ford comparison. Everyone wants to say he's "young" well so are D.rose, Westbrook, Lawson, Holliday, and the list goes on. DC is an avg PG at best.
    You're right that D.Rose, Westbrook, Lawson and Holiday are young. But they also are score first point guards.

    DC is showing signs that he wants to evolve to a pass first point guard. And he has the tools for it. He has good handles. His low center of gravity and his quickness help him to blow by his defender and score with a quick layup if he fakes a shoulder showing that he is gonna pass to a big. He has a great mid range shot so the defenders cannot get under the pick.

    What does he lack? The knowledge to run a pick and split the defense and the passing ability. Both can be learned just by having a pure pass first point guard to play alongside him.

    PS: The great thing of starting to watch the NBA and the Pacers this year is that I am not prejudiced about any player. I didn't know how Danny, DC or Hibbert played last year. I only know how they've played so far. So, I only judge them based on this year's performance.

    Danny could be a choker last year, DC could be horrible and Hibbert could be soft. Is this how they've been this year? No.

    Still, a lot of people complain about Danny being a choker, some people also say that DC has been horrible and some people even said that Hibbert is still soft. These statements are not even logical if you look at this year's play. They are opinions of people who are predisposed against certain players due to the performances they had in previous seasons. This season is not the previous season, however.

    So, those people could probably be better off if they judged our players based on this season.

    That's why while I do see the points in the DC/TJ Ford comparison I consider it nothing more than a bias.

    Then again, I could be biased as well if I watched the NBA during the JOB years

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