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Thread: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    To me the whole problem with our second unit is that our offense in general is just not that good, our first unit is just so much better that they make up for our lack of offense, how many times we have won while shooting a horrible percentage?

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Right now I'd rather see the second unit play small. Bring AJ in and take out Lou.

    Yes we'll play someone out of position majorly but our offense will be better (and probably our defense as well.
    Our defense is going to get better with Dahntay Jones back at the four (Jimmy-style) ? I don't agree.

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    I'm glad that Vogel sees the problem with Tyler clearly. Identifying the problem is the first step to fixing it.

    I also thought Dahntay's comments as to what they could do now were worthwhile. Stiffen up on D, and take advantage of the breakaways.
    [~]) ... Cheers! Go Pacers!

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I continue to believe Hill's at his best off the ball.
    I don't care for the Collison, George Hill guard pairing much either. We shouldn't have gotten George Hill if he is only going to be an undersized 2 guard(I don't blame him for our issues however).

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Stephenson is playing over Price (who has proven to be an upgrade) because LB wants it.
    So your calling Frank Vogel a liar? Have you looked at AJ Prices stats this season? Is AJ's .154 shooting percentage what proved it for you, or maybe the Maybe the .143 from three? Maybe .380 for his career? Aj no longer is a young project, he needs to actually prove something. I don't care if he does wave his hands in the air in addition to chucking threes.

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    I believe I am correct in noting that once you send a player to the D League, he has to stay there all year. It's not like the minor leagues in baseball.

    To me, this is clearly the reason most teams don't use it much.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I believe I am correct in noting that once you send a player to the D League, he has to stay there all year. It's not like the minor leagues in baseball.

    To me, this is clearly the reason most teams don't use it much.
    I think you can have them in the D league as long as you want, Bledsoe was send to the D league for two games to get healthy and now he is back.

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Lance/AJ is further down the chart for naming the reasons that our second unit is struggling.

    1. No Foster.

    2. Hans is struggling.

    3. George Hill has been struggling recently.

    4. Lou Amundson sucks.


    Whether Lance makes a great pass or not or makes a turnover or two in five minutes of the first half—or instead AJ makes a decent pass or chucks a shot or perhaps makes it . . . that's really not the major issue folks.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I believe I am correct in noting that once you send a player to the D League, he has to stay there all year. It's not like the minor leagues in baseball.
    Ah no, that's wrong. Teams can send down or recall players at any time. Under the new CBA, there's even no restriction now on how many times players can be sent down (there was previously - I think twice per season).

    Plus veterans (>3 years experience) can now be sent down with their consent, e.g. while recovering from injury.

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    JT you find ways to hate Bird like George Washington Carver found ways to use peanuts.

    I don't care for peanuts either.

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by pacerfreak View Post
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    While I do agree that having a pure point guard would help the second unit and I agree that AJ would appear at this time a much better option than Hill or Lance, I still am not convinced that he is a pure point guard.

    I have watched him be very selfish (like DC) with the ball, and I have watched him be able to distribute like a point guard should. Is it the system or ???

    You seem to have watched AJ for the better part of his college and pro career why do you think he doesn't play (basketball reasons) not because Larry likes Lance. I don't buy it. There is a very good coaching staff on the bench this year. Don't you think if Aj was clearly better he would play more?
    I think that is the basketball reason.

    I think Larry wants to see what Lance can do, and is pretty sure AJ's going to go elsewhere next season. I think Larry gets stuck on stuff. Everyone told him to fire JOB for two years, and he point blank refused to do it for the longest time, according to Katz, he still didn't want to do it but Simon did. If that's true, it says a lot.

    I don't think any other GM takes the chance on Lance that Larry has, personally. How many other GM's allow three personal/chemistry issues to happen, before a guy proves a darn thing on the floor? Whether Lance has grown up or not, it certainly shows that Larry is irrational about him. He's called him the best player on the team. I think that says enough.

    Honestly, if Josh was still here, and Tyler still struggling, I expect Josh would still be sitting on the bench too. (assuming we had a quality backup Center). Because Larry is almost as stubborn about Tyler as he is about Lance.

    Basketball reasons, honestly, the only one I can think of is not wanting Hill to play at the 2 because of his size. But he's played the 2 his entire career at times, and Hill/AJ are significantly better defensively than Lance/Hill or Lance/AJ, regardless of size. Not only that, but they seemed to really play well together. It's not that AJ's amazing, I'm a fan obviously, but I've also said over and over again that he's not the most talented guy. But like fans of Josh, I see AJ as a glue guy. A guy that makes the team better. And he's one of two point guards on the roster, so unless we get another one, it's flat out silly to not play him.

    And because I think Vogel isn't an idiot. I have to believe that this is Larry's idea, and it stems from stubbornness and a need to prove he was right, rather than an evaluation of what the team needs.

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I think you can have them in the D league as long as you want, Bledsoe was send to the D league for two games to get healthy and now he is back.
    Okay then.

    Not sure where I got that idea.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Lance/AJ is further down the chart for naming the reasons that our second unit is struggling.

    1. No Foster.

    2. Hans is struggling.

    3. George Hill has been struggling recently.

    4. Lou Amundson sucks.


    Whether Lance makes a great pass or not or makes a turnover or two in five minutes of the first half—or instead AJ makes a decent pass or chucks a shot or perhaps makes it . . . that's really not the major issue folks.



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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Our defense is going to get better with Dahntay Jones back at the four (Jimmy-style) ? I don't agree.
    Granger can play some 4 for short stints - it's not like Lou plays a ton anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Whether Lance makes a great pass or not or makes a turnover or two in five minutes of the first half—or instead AJ makes a decent pass or chucks a shot or perhaps makes it . . . that's really not the major issue folks.
    So you don't believe that the sum could be greater than the parts? I don't know whether AJ can make the bench effective, but the bench certainly needs a shake up and Price is the obvious guy to try. If he sucks then we've learned something - i.e. we should trade for a new backup PG. There's a reason Darren Collison is leading the team in minutes played, and it's not because our backup PG play has been great.

  17. #64

    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    I don't care for the Collison, George Hill guard pairing much either. We shouldn't have gotten George Hill if he is only going to be an undersized 2 guard(I don't blame him for our issues however).



    So your calling Frank Vogel a liar? Have you looked at AJ Prices stats this season? Is AJ's .154 shooting percentage what proved it for you, or maybe the Maybe the .143 from three? Maybe .380 for his career? Aj no longer is a young project, he needs to actually prove something. I don't care if he does wave his hands in the air in addition to chucking threes.
    Vogel essentially said Lance is getting developmental minutes. I don't really see how you're debating that he's getting anything more than that. You don't consistently give a guy less than 10 minutes a game for any other reason, imo. We could argue whether Larry wants to give them to him or Vogel wants to give it to him, but personally, I think that's a pretty obvious answer too.

    AJ's shooting percentage will more than likely even out, he's healthy now. But you can't look at stats to see how Price did those three games. He ran the team, the bench ran a decent offense. Hill and Tyler played the best they have all season because Tyler was getting the ball where he likes it and Hill was getting to play off ball. He played really well defensively. There was simply a significant difference in bench play when he was out there.

  18. #65

    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I think that is the basketball reason.

    I think Larry wants to see what Lance can do, and is pretty sure AJ's going to go elsewhere next season. I think Larry gets stuck on stuff. Everyone told him to fire JOB for two years, and he point blank refused to do it for the longest time, according to Katz, he still didn't want to do it but Simon did. If that's true, it says a lot.

    I don't think any other GM takes the chance on Lance that Larry has, personally. How many other GM's allow three personal/chemistry issues to happen, before a guy proves a darn thing on the floor? Whether Lance has grown up or not, it certainly shows that Larry is irrational about him. He's called him the best player on the team. I think that says enough.

    Honestly, if Josh was still here, and Tyler still struggling, I expect Josh would still be sitting on the bench too. (assuming we had a quality backup Center). Because Larry is almost as stubborn about Tyler as he is about Lance.

    Basketball reasons, honestly, the only one I can think of is not wanting Hill to play at the 2 because of his size. But he's played the 2 his entire career at times, and Hill/AJ are significantly better defensively than Lance/Hill or Lance/AJ, regardless of size. Not only that, but they seemed to really play well together. It's not that AJ's amazing, I'm a fan obviously, but I've also said over and over again that he's not the most talented guy. But like fans of Josh, I see AJ as a glue guy. A guy that makes the team better. And he's one of two point guards on the roster, so unless we get another one, it's flat out silly to not play him.

    And because I think Vogel isn't an idiot. I have to believe that this is Larry's idea, and it stems from stubbornness and a need to prove he was right, rather than an evaluation of what the team needs.


    Quit pointing out Bird's liabilities, or you are going will be labeled a Bird hater from the Bird can do no wrong apologists.

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Lance/AJ is further down the chart for naming the reasons that our second unit is struggling.

    1. No Foster.

    Any upgrades on Foster's health or when he might return?

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Any upgrades on Foster's health or when he might return?
    I think he's targeting Tuesday against the Nets.

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by pwee31 View Post
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    I think he's targeting Tuesday against the Nets.

    THAT SOUNDS REALLY GOOD!

    Thanx for the update.

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I think that is the basketball reason.

    I think Larry wants to see what Lance can do, and is pretty sure AJ's going to go elsewhere next season. I think Larry gets stuck on stuff. Everyone told him to fire JOB for two years, and he point blank refused to do it for the longest time, according to Katz, he still didn't want to do it but Simon did. If that's true, it says a lot.

    I don't think any other GM takes the chance on Lance that Larry has, personally. How many other GM's allow three personal/chemistry issues to happen, before a guy proves a darn thing on the floor? Whether Lance has grown up or not, it certainly shows that Larry is irrational about him. He's called him the best player on the team. I think that says enough.

    Honestly, if Josh was still here, and Tyler still struggling, I expect Josh would still be sitting on the bench too. (assuming we had a quality backup Center). Because Larry is almost as stubborn about Tyler as he is about Lance.

    Basketball reasons, honestly, the only one I can think of is not wanting Hill to play at the 2 because of his size. But he's played the 2 his entire career at times, and Hill/AJ are significantly better defensively than Lance/Hill or Lance/AJ, regardless of size. Not only that, but they seemed to really play well together. It's not that AJ's amazing, I'm a fan obviously, but I've also said over and over again that he's not the most talented guy. But like fans of Josh, I see AJ as a glue guy. A guy that makes the team better. And he's one of two point guards on the roster, so unless we get another one, it's flat out silly to not play him.

    And because I think Vogel isn't an idiot. I have to believe that this is Larry's idea, and it stems from stubbornness and a need to prove he was right, rather than an evaluation of what the team needs.
    Ya my buddy who worked for the Hornets at the time Lance was drafted said there was no way they would touch him regardless of spot where he was drafted. He worked some of the camps where the top guys like Lance go to in the summer and he said the things Lance had reportedly done were unbelievable. He said many teams didnt even have Lance on their board.

  24. #70

    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Quit pointing out Bird's liabilities, or you are going will be labeled a Bird hater from the Bird can do no wrong apologists.
    I think Larry Bird has done a fantastic job, overall. I really do.

    I just think the personal qualities that are almost necessary for people to become great basketball players, can hinder a person in being a GM. Namely, the need to prove to everyone something.

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  26. #71
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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Cause 9-13 are scrubs. and # 8, Jeff should have retired!

    We had a better bench last year. I think Bird is trying to play Money Ball and It's not working!!!
    Last edited by Pacer Fan; 01-29-2012 at 04:18 PM.

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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    Vogel essentially said Lance is getting developmental minutes. I don't really see how you're debating that he's getting anything more than that. You don't consistently give a guy less than 10 minutes a game for any other reason, imo. We could argue whether Larry wants to give them to him or Vogel wants to give it to him, but personally, I think that's a pretty obvious answer too.

    AJ's shooting percentage will more than likely even out, he's healthy now. But you can't look at stats to see how Price did those three games. He ran the team, the bench ran a decent offense. Hill and Tyler played the best they have all season because Tyler was getting the ball where he likes it and Hill was getting to play off ball. He played really well defensively. There was simply a significant difference in bench play when he was out there.
    I tried to find the specific quote, but I have wasted enough time looking. Frank bluntly said that he isn't giving Lance anything and that he is earning his minutes.

  29. #73
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    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I agree that he is the kind of role player you like to have off your bench to move the ball and give you 10/15min but for the price he was going to ask it wasn't worth it for the Pacers.
    I see, so McRoberts was to expensive?

    Amundsen makes 2.5 million this year, add another 800k or so (minimum i guess) for Pendergast and that is more then McRoberts alledgedly makes with the Lakers, and whilst I am pretty sure he would have signed on the dotted for 2.5 million or so, even at that he would have been a considerable upgrade over amundsen and pendergast together.

    And why talk about McRoberts again, and leaver Rush out of the discussion, oh yeah he sucks too.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  31. #74

    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Cause 9-13 are scrubs. and # 8, Jeff should have retired!

    We had a better bench last year. I think Bird is trying to play Money Ball and It's not working!!!
    I mean we're 12-6. Something is clearly working...

  32. #75

    Default Re: 1/29/12 Mike Wells article in the star about the bench

    yeah, unfortunately I think Rush and McRoberts would be better to have on the floor than Lou and Lance. With that said, our bench should be playing much better than they are. They are still a solid group, especially with Foster.

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