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Thread: Article about possible FAs/Extensions + News about our RFAs

  1. #51

    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Guy's I'm here to tell you that if he ends the year right now averaging what he is right now and does not improve one lick he will be close to a max player. Not that he deserves it mind you, very very few do. But a legit 7'2" center who is avg. a double double and has shown the ability to defend and stay out of foult trouble?

    Believe me there will be plenty of teams lining up to sign Roy to mad money. Roy's agent would be doing his client a giant disservice if he extended with the Pacers and remember his agent is David Falk so he won't make that mistake.

    We are just going to have to decide in the near future if Roy is the anchor to build around or not. I suspect that we will be seeing Roy in Blue & Gold for a long time.
    I agree with.you in part but this comes down to teams that will have capspace in 2012 and need a center.I am trying to think of all the teams but its going to be a very short list.. houston, kings, raptors, anybody else? Its hard to know what hibberts next contract will be considering the leagues higher salary floor and the potential teams that can make him an offer.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I agree with.you in part but this comes down to teams that will have capspace in 2012 and need a center.I am trying to think of all the teams but its going to be a very short list.. houston, kings, raptors, anybody else? Its hard to know what hibberts next contract will be considering the leagues higher salary floor and the potential teams that can make him an offer.
    Yea that is a good point, the new CBA will certainly help the Pacers in that respect.

    However where there is a will there is a way, some team might be willing to dump something somewhere to get him the money.

    But the very good news is at the end of the day it is up to the Pacers. It's as simple as this, if they want to keep him they can no matter what the cost thanks to getting out of our bad contracts.

    Now it's just a matter of making sure you don't go right back in that boat, but we do have a lot of room to play.

    In other words right now it's good to be a Pacers fan.


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  4. #53

    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Yea that is a good point, the new CBA will certainly help the Pacers in that respect.

    However where there is a will there is a way, some team might be willing to dump something somewhere to get him the money.

    But the very good news is at the end of the day it is up to the Pacers. It's as simple as this, if they want to keep him they can no matter what the cost thanks to getting out of our bad contracts.

    Now it's just a matter of making sure you don't go right back in that boat, but we do have a lot of room to play.

    In other words right now it's good to be a Pacers fan.
    The tough decision that has been brought up before is if you hold the money back so you can try to sign other guys then go over the cap to retain hibbert and hill? Do the pacer save money now in signing hibbert or do they hold back the cap space for a fa?
    Last edited by Gamble1; 01-08-2012 at 11:40 PM.

  5. #54
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    By the way, Hibbert can get at most a 4 year extension (because the current year also counts). DRose is an exception because the Bulls used their max designated player clause on him; I doubt Pacers would do the same for Hibbert.

    A possible strategy would be to offer Hibs an extension at a reasonable number, say 4 years $48m and hopes he'll take security over testing the market. If he wants more, then he can go to the market as an RFA meaning we can still match any offer. A Nick Collison-style extension could be very helpful here; say we frontload $12m of that new contract into this year as a signing bonus, that means Hib's remaining contract would be for 4 years at $9m per - a very reasonable number for a starting center. The Pacers still have around $15m in cap space in order to pull off that frontloading trick.

    Another strategy would be to offer no extension at all in order to maximize cap space for next year. I'm not in favor of this though as I can't think of FA's we can reasonably hope to acquire who would be better than Hibbert and Hill.

    Quote Originally Posted by idioteque View Post
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    Where do you get that number? Seems insultingly low.
    Really? I think $5m per for Hill sounds about right. Unless you're thinking he'll have a breakout year (which I sort of am), then all the more reason to extend him as soon as possible

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    The tough decision that has been brought up before is if you hold the money back so you can try to sign other guys then go over the cap to retain hibbert and hill? Do the pacer save money now in signing hibbert or do they hold back the cap space for a fa?
    We can't really do that because of Hibbert and Hill's cap holds (see Larry Staverman's post earlier in the thread). If we renounce their cap holds then we can make full use of cap space for FA but that means we can't re-sign Hibbert using Bird rights. Now it's true that Hibbert's cap hold is less than his expected new salary, so the Pacers could get a bit more cap space this way. But IMO that doesn't beat locking up Hibs early, especially if we plan to use the frontload trick to reduce his cap hit anyway. And for Hill's case I'm expecting his new salary to be less than his cap hold, so if we intend to keep him then might as well lock him up early.

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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    You guys do realize that it doesn't matter if we have cap space or not when we are re-signing our own players right? Our choice to amnesty Posey has zero affect on our ability to re-sign our players.

  8. #56
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by D0NT SH0OT ME View Post
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    You guys do realize that it doesn't matter if we have cap space or not when we are re-signing our own players right? Our choice to amnesty Posey has zero affect on our ability to re-sign our players.
    You're right that we don't need cap space to re-sign our own players. But if you do have cap space, you can do some clever things like Sam Presti did:

    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ract-extension

    Also, cap space matters for next year because if we play our cards right, we can re-sign Hibbert and Hill, AND possibly add another FA. So this discussion isn't academic.

  9. #57
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    I don't really care about the money it costs, and if he says no I am not really worried, but not making an extension offer of decent quality to Hibbert may not be such a good idea.

    You want him here? then go for it now, Granger did, Roy may well do too.

    Why not designate him btw? it shows how you value him and can you name another player on the roster you want to do that for at this moment?

    Waiting for a player to break out is nice, but don't let it get in the way of your current roster.
    And yes it would be nice if we may consider 3 years down the line we were to early and better use it on PG, but a lot can happen between now and then, 2 whole seasons of basketball will have passed us by before that becomes another topic.

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    Perhaps I'm wrong about this - and I'll admit I haven't read every post in the thread - but isn't it more lucrative for the player to re-sign in the offseason rather than be extended during the year (they can get an extra year and higher raises)? I thought this was enacted to prevent the extend-and-trade deals like Carmelo Anthony's last year. It is plausible that this is the delay in offering an extension...we'd like to lock Roy up for an extra year.

    I realize this may not apply to those coming off of their rookie deals. If so, ignore my post. But perhaps some of our resident capologists can chime in here?

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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Good call on Rose being the exception. Gasol was offered the max from a competitor at 4/55 when he became a rfa. Would we still be limited to a 4 year deal once Roy becomes a rfa or would it then be a 5? I'd be happy if we extended Roy to a 4/48 as you suggest. That's still a 7 mil savings over matching a max contract offer from another team and it's a 10 mil savings over what we could offer in a 4 year deal with the added 4.5% raises that a competitor can't offer. I'm also in favor of front loading his contract. If we get much closer to a max contract in an extension, we're better off waiting and matching an offer. He's ours no matter what if the team wants him. I want to keep Roy around but there is no reason to want to pay him any more then we have to. The more the team saves, the more we have to work with in bringing in other missing pieces. I aslo agree with Hill, but I'm not very worried about extending him. He won't get any more money as a free agent then Crawford just did.


    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    By the way, Hibbert can get at most a 4 year extension (because the current year also counts). DRose is an exception because the Bulls used their max designated player clause on him; I doubt Pacers would do the same for Hibbert.

    A possible strategy would be to offer Hibs an extension at a reasonable number, say 4 years $48m and hopes he'll take security over testing the market. If he wants more, then he can go to the market as an RFA meaning we can still match any offer. A Nick Collison-style extension could be very helpful here; say we frontload $12m of that new contract into this year as a signing bonus, that means Hib's remaining contract would be for 4 years at $9m per - a very reasonable number for a starting center. The Pacers still have around $15m in cap space in order to pull off that frontloading trick.

    Another strategy would be to offer no extension at all in order to maximize cap space for next year. I'm not in favor of this though as I can't think of FA's we can reasonably hope to acquire who would be better than Hibbert and Hill.



    Really? I think $5m per for Hill sounds about right. Unless you're thinking he'll have a breakout year (which I sort of am), then all the more reason to extend him as soon as possible



    We can't really do that because of Hibbert and Hill's cap holds (see Larry Staverman's post earlier in the thread). If we renounce their cap holds then we can make full use of cap space for FA but that means we can't re-sign Hibbert using Bird rights. Now it's true that Hibbert's cap hold is less than his expected new salary, so the Pacers could get a bit more cap space this way. But IMO that doesn't beat locking up Hibs early, especially if we plan to use the frontload trick to reduce his cap hit anyway. And for Hill's case I'm expecting his new salary to be less than his cap hold, so if we intend to keep him then might as well lock him up early.

  12. #60

    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    By the way, Hibbert can get at most a 4 year extension (because the current year also counts). DRose is an exception because the Bulls used their max designated player clause on him; I doubt Pacers would do the same for Hibbert.

    A possible strategy would be to offer Hibs an extension at a reasonable number, say 4 years $48m and hopes he'll take security over testing the market. If he wants more, then he can go to the market as an RFA meaning we can still match any offer. A Nick Collison-style extension could be very helpful here; say we frontload $12m of that new contract into this year as a signing bonus, that means Hib's remaining contract would be for 4 years at $9m per - a very reasonable number for a starting center. The Pacers still have around $15m in cap space in order to pull off that frontloading trick.

    Another strategy would be to offer no extension at all in order to maximize cap space for next year. I'm not in favor of this though as I can't think of FA's we can reasonably hope to acquire who would be better than Hibbert and Hill.


    We can't really do that because of Hibbert and Hill's cap holds (see Larry Staverman's post earlier in the thread). If we renounce their cap holds then we can make full use of cap space for FA but that means we can't re-sign Hibbert using Bird rights. Now it's true that Hibbert's cap hold is less than his expected new salary, so the Pacers could get a bit more cap space this way. But IMO that doesn't beat locking up Hibs early, especially if we plan to use the frontload trick to reduce his cap hit anyway. And for Hill's case I'm expecting his new salary to be less than his cap hold, so if we intend to keep him then might as well lock him up early.
    Thanks for pointing that out again. The real question I guess is resiging Hill. If you let him walk for a greater piece then thats the only question mark in my mind.. Whose a greater piece? I have no clue but there could be some options out there.

    I like the front loading the contract for Hibbert but then we basically give up being players during the trade deadline this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor S View Post
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    Perhaps I'm wrong about this - and I'll admit I haven't read every post in the thread - but isn't it more lucrative for the player to re-sign in the offseason rather than be extended during the year (they can get an extra year and higher raises)? I thought this was enacted to prevent the extend-and-trade deals like Carmelo Anthony's last year. It is plausible that this is the delay in offering an extension...we'd like to lock Roy up for an extra year.

    I realize this may not apply to those coming off of their rookie deals. If so, ignore my post. But perhaps some of our resident capologists can chime in here?
    Its more lucrative if he's our designated franchise player and Hibbert will not get that IMO. Rose also signed this year so its not more lucrative from when the FA signs his contract. This applies to 8 + year vets if my memory correct. For example Nene would receive less than Chandler because he has less years in the league if your talking max contracts and what can be offered to a player.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 01-09-2012 at 10:02 AM.

  13. #61
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by shockedandchagrined View Post
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    An extension should not affect this year's cap space unless the Pacers choose to push some of the money into this year, like OKC did with Nick Collison a year ago. Since the Pacers hold Hibbert's Bird rights, as an example they can extend him for 4/40mil, but push 8 million into the 2011-12 season, meaning the remainder of the contract becomes 4/32mil.

    I think that's right.
    Is that still allowed in the new cba?

    Paging Larry Coon!

  14. #62
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Why not designate him btw? it shows how you value him and can you name another player on the roster you want to do that for at this moment?
    I think the player has to get a MAX contract to qualify for the max player designation. So I don't think Hibbert will qualify, nor Paul George even.

    Quote Originally Posted by Professor S View Post
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    Perhaps I'm wrong about this - and I'll admit I haven't read every post in the thread - but isn't it more lucrative for the player to re-sign in the offseason rather than be extended during the year (they can get an extra year and higher raises)? I thought this was enacted to prevent the extend-and-trade deals like Carmelo Anthony's last year. It is plausible that this is the delay in offering an extension...we'd like to lock Roy up for an extra year.
    Extra year, yes. Higher raises, no. Roy's our own free agent, so we don't have extend-and-trade issues.

    Yes, it would probably be more lucrative for Roy to test the market. However, extending now gives him the security of a long term contract even if he were to injure himself (knock on wood) this year. Just look at Jeff Green's situation - not a nice place to be for a young player just off his rookie contract.

    Pacers have historically extended the players they wanted to keep. Foster for example has only been an FA once in his career (this year) because the Pacers have always extended his contract before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Would we still be limited to a 4 year deal once Roy becomes a rfa or would it then be a 5?
    We would be able to offer 5 if Roy goes to RFA. An extension is for a year less because the current year counts towards the whole contract. In the case of CP3, he also had an option year, so his possible extension was 2 years less than normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I like the front loading the contract for Hibbert but then we basically give up being players during the trade deadline this year.
    Yes, that's the downside. Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to extend Hibbert to a "normal" contract now and restructure it into a frontloaded one later on if it turns out we don't have a better use for the cap space. So we'll need to make that decision soon.
    Last edited by wintermute; 01-09-2012 at 10:44 AM.

  15. #63

    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Yea that is a good point, the new CBA will certainly help the Pacers in that respect.

    However where there is a will there is a way, some team might be willing to dump something somewhere to get him the money.

    But the very good news is at the end of the day it is up to the Pacers. It's as simple as this, if they want to keep him they can no matter what the cost thanks to getting out of our bad contracts.

    Now it's just a matter of making sure you don't go right back in that boat, but we do have a lot of room to play.

    In other words right now it's good to be a Pacers fan.
    Here is a list of teams and how much is on the books

    1. Celtics (35 mill)- Tough to know what they will do but they need a big. Good news is that Bass will opt out of his final year and they may need to retain him.

    2. Cavs (32 mill) - Have Vaj and Gee but could use more IMO. Gee is a FA

    3. Dallas - Can't see them making enough room

    4. GSW - Could amnesty Biedrens to make room but doubt it.

    5. Rockets - Could cut Dalembert but doubt it

    6. Wolves (31 mill) - Have to resign Love to the max to cap space will be used up. Also have to resign Beasly and Randolf.

    7. Nets - Could offer a lot but already have Lopez who needs to be resigned if Howad deal falls through.

    8. Hornets (30 mill) - Have Okafor and need to resign Gordon

    9. Trailblazers - Hard to believe they have capspace but Roys injury helped them to free up some cash along with Camby.

    10. Kings (34mill) - Have JJ Hickson as a FA and already signed Hayes.

    11. Spurs - Could free up money with not resigned Duncan and using the amnesty of Jefferson

    12. Raptors (40 mill)- Doubt they are players.

    13. Wizards (40 mill). Need to resign McGee and have Blatche. Young could leave as well.

    Big Man FA's in 2012...

    1. Hibbert RFA
    2. Kaman FA
    3. Camby FA
    4. Tim Duncan FA
    5. Hawes FA
    6. McGee RFA
    7. Hickson RFA


    The only ones that scare me on that list of teams that could offer HIbbert a lot of money is the Celtics, Nets and to a lesser extent the Cavs.

    Looking at the big men available for next year I would have to believe most teams would go after a unrestricted FA before they offered HIbbert a large contract. I think we are safe.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 01-09-2012 at 11:11 AM.

  16. #64
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by shockedandchagrined View Post
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    An extension should not affect this year's cap space unless the Pacers choose to push some of the money into this year, like OKC did with Nick Collison a year ago. Since the Pacers hold Hibbert's Bird rights, as an example they can extend him for 4/40mil, but push 8 million into the 2011-12 season, meaning the remainder of the contract becomes 4/32mil.

    I think that's right.
    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Good catch, yeah we should absolutely do that if we're not planning to use the remaining cap space to add another player. We still have around $15m of cap space to use.

    Could be that the Pacers are planning to do this all along, I couldn't figure out what they were planning to do with the extra space from the Posey amnesty. This would be absolutely brilliant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I like the front loading the contract for Hibbert but then we basically give up being players during the trade deadline this year.
    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute
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    Yes, that's the downside.

    All of this is wrong.

    Barring extreme circumstances (a buyout or career ending injury), Roy's salary is locked for the 2011-12 season at $2.6. Neither extensions for Roy or George Hill will have any impact on this year's cap figure or cap space. All extensions would begin next year.

    The Pacers cap space this year will only be affected by trades or signings made for the current year.


    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    I think the player has to get a MAX contract to qualify for the max player designation. So I don't think Hibbert will qualify, nor Paul George even.
    The "Rookie Designated Player" applies only to length of contract - the extra year on the rookie extension - and has nothing to do with salary. The Pacers could "designate" George Hill, and still extend him at $5mm per - but give him the extra year.

    However, as a practical matter, "designating" a player will (or at least should) be reserved for special, max level players. This for two reasons: first to avoid tying yourself to that extra year, and second, a team is allowed to only have one "designated" player that the team signed on their roster at a time, so the Pacers would not be able to designate any players during the length of that contract.

    It seems unlikely and foolish to waste a designation on Roy.

    Unless you can extend him for a reasonable amount now ($8 mm per season or less), the smart thing to do is to let him play out the year, make the qualifying offer, and let him test the market. If he yips all over the place, and ***** the bed in the playoffs again, his market will drop and the Pacers can sign him accordingly. If he plays great, even a max offer sheet will save the Pacers a year, and dollars with lower raises.

    With one year off max deals, and lower raise percentages, and the stretch provision, the penalty for waiting to see what the market will bear isn't anywhere near as bad as it was just last year. With someone as wildly inconsistent as Hibbert has been, you're better off getting another year of games in before committing to him.

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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    All of this is wrong.

    Barring extreme circumstances (a buyout or career ending injury), Roy's salary is locked for the 2011-12 season at $2.6. Neither extensions for Roy or George Hill will have any impact on this year's cap figure or cap space. All extensions would begin next year.

    The Pacers cap space this year will only be affected by trades or signings made for the current year.




    The "Rookie Designated Player" applies only to length of contract - the extra year on the rookie extension - and has nothing to do with salary. The Pacers could "designate" George Hill, and still extend him at $5mm per - but give him the extra year.

    However, as a practical matter, "designating" a player will (or at least should) be reserved for special, max level players. This for two reasons: first to avoid tying yourself to that extra year, and second, a team is allowed to only have one "designated" player that the team signed on their roster at a time, so the Pacers would not be able to designate any players during the length of that contract.

    It seems unlikely and foolish to waste a designation on Roy.

    Unless you can extend him for a reasonable amount now ($8 mm per season or less), the smart thing to do is to let him play out the year, make the qualifying offer, and let him test the market. If he yips all over the place, and ***** the bed in the playoffs again, his market will drop and the Pacers can sign him accordingly. If he plays great, even a max offer sheet will save the Pacers a year, and dollars with lower raises.

    With one year off max deals, and lower raise percentages, and the stretch provision, the penalty for waiting to see what the market will bear isn't anywhere near as bad as it was just last year. With someone as wildly inconsistent as Hibbert has been, you're better off getting another year of games in before committing to him.
    The reason Nick Collison signed that wacky extenstion was because he was already making 10m on the previous deal he was way overpaid. So on the next deal they could front load it.


    For example say we trade for Kaman and wanted to extend him. We could give him 14m the first year(next year) and then make it drop severally by my interruption of how the salary cap works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Here is a list of teams and how much is on the books

    1. Celtics (35 mill)- Tough to know what they will do but they need a big. Good news is that Bass will opt out of his final year and they may need to retain him.

    2. Cavs (32 mill) - Have Vaj and Gee but could use more IMO. Gee is a FA

    3. Dallas - Can't see them making enough room

    4. GSW - Could amnesty Biedrens to make room but doubt it.

    5. Rockets - Could cut Dalembert but doubt it

    6. Wolves (31 mill) - Have to resign Love to the max to cap space will be used up. Also have to resign Beasly and Randolf.

    7. Nets - Could offer a lot but already have Lopez who needs to be resigned if Howad deal falls through.

    8. Hornets (30 mill) - Have Okafor and need to resign Gordon

    9. Trailblazers - Hard to believe they have capspace but Roys injury helped them to free up some cash along with Camby.

    10. Kings (34mill) - Have JJ Hickson as a FA and already signed Hayes.

    11. Spurs - Could free up money with not resigned Duncan and using the amnesty of Jefferson

    12. Raptors (40 mill)- Doubt they are players.

    13. Wizards (40 mill). Need to resign McGee and have Blatche. Young could leave as well.

    Big Man FA's in 2012...

    1. Hibbert RFA
    2. Kaman FA
    3. Camby FA
    4. Tim Duncan FA
    5. Hawes FA
    6. McGee RFA
    7. Hickson RFA


    The only ones that scare me on that list of teams that could offer HIbbert a lot of money is the Celtics, Nets and to a lesser extent the Cavs.

    Looking at the big men available for next year I would have to believe most teams would go after a unrestricted FA before they offered HIbbert a large contract. I think we are safe.
    Dallas is gonna have a ton of room next year a lot of money is coming off the books they are going after the big ticket free agents though doubt they target Roy.
    Last edited by pacer4ever; 01-09-2012 at 11:55 AM.

  19. #66
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Hey count, now I'm confused.

    In 2010-11, Nick Collison's cap hit went from $6.75m to $13.3m. According to Marc Stein's write-up, this was due to OKC's assigning their $6.5m cap space to Collison as a "signing bonus".

    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ract-extension

    Now, something in the new CBA might make this impossible now, but otherwise I don't see how the Pacers can't do something similar with Hibbert.

    On the max designated rule, I am basing it on Larry's Coon article (which was admittedly some time ago):

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=67134

    2011 CBA: Players coming off their rookie scale contracts can extend for four additional seasons, although the team can designate one player who is eligible for five seasons at the maximum salary. A team can have only one designated player on its roster at any time. All other veterans can extend for four total seasons, which includes the seasons remaining on their current contract. The extension in an extend-and-trade contract is limited to three total seasons, which includes the seasons remaining on the current contract.
    Do you have new information contradicting this?

  20. #67
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    The reason Nick Collison signed that wacky extenstion was because he was already making 10m on the previous deal he was way overpaid. So on the next deal they could front load it.


    For example say we trade for Kaman and wanted to extend him. We could give him 14m the first year(next year) and then make it drop severally by my interruption of how the salary cap works.
    You are talking about a different scenario from the one that the others were. They were saying that the Pacers could sign an extension, then pull some of the money into this season. That is not possible.

    Yes, contracts can be frontloaded in the way you described, but not in the way they described.

  21. #68
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    The reason Nick Collison signed that wacky extenstion was because he was already making 10m on the previous deal he was way overpaid. So on the next deal they could front load it.
    No, Collison was originally making $6m only. This is how his salary breaks down according to Stein:

    The precise year-by-year breakdown:

    2010-11: $13,270,000 (Upped from $6.75 million with a signing bonus of slightly more than $6.5 million)
    2011-12: $3,272,997 (First year of extension)
    2012-13: $2,929,332
    2013-14: $2,585,668
    2014-15: $2,242,003

    *Extension totals $11,030,000 over four years
    Note that the signing bonus is applied before the extension is in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    For example say we trade for Kaman and wanted to extend him. We could give him 14m the first year(next year) and then make it drop severally by my interruption of how the salary cap works.
    It can't drop severely after the first year because contracts can only increase/decrease by 4.5% (or 7.5% for own free agents). So that doesn't work I'm afraid.

  22. #69

    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Winterminute...

    From your Marc Stein link.

    Signing bonuses in extensions are usually pro-rated through the life of the contract. Teams under the cap, though, can apply the entire signing bonus at the time the extension is signed, as long as the bonus doesn't exceed the available cap space.
    If the rules haven't changed then it may be possible.

  23. #70
    Rooting My Family 2 Glory CooperManning's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    I was under the impression that players can't get Nick Collison-style deals off of their rookie contracts.

  24. #71
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Hey count, now I'm confused.

    In 2010-11, Nick Collison's cap hit went from $6.75m to $13.3m. According to Marc Stein's write-up, this was due to OKC's assigning their $6.5m cap space to Collison as a "signing bonus".

    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...ract-extension

    Now, something in the new CBA might make this impossible now, but otherwise I don't see how the Pacers can't do something similar with Hibbert.
    It looks like they at least partially closed that loophole:

    (A) (A) The signing bonus shall be allocated over the remaining Salary Cap Years (including the then-current Salary Cap Year) under the original term of the Contract and the extended term in proportion to the percentage of Base Compensation in each such Salary Cap Year that, at the time of allocation, is protected for lack of skill. In the event that, at the time of allocation, none of the Base Compensation provided for during the then-current and any remaining Salary Cap Years under the original term of the Contract or during the extended term is protected for lack of skill, then the entire amount of the signing bonus shall be allocated to the Salary Cap Year during which the Extension is signed
    Unless there is language elsewhere in the CBA that changes it, then taking the full signing bonus to the cap at the time of the signing is no longer an option. I'll have to talk to Larry and confirm.

    It does indicate, however, that 1/Xth might be taken (with X being the current year plus the years of the extension). (Also, signing bonuses have been reduced to a max of 15% from 20%.)

    So, theoretically, it appears they could take as much as 1/X of 15% to this year's cap, if they gave Hibbert an extension

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute
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    On the max designated rule, I am basing it on Larry's Coon article (which was admittedly some time ago):

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=67134



    Do you have new information contradicting this?
    No, I have conflicting info. The summary I have speaks only to length, but the full CBA markup includes language on Max Salary. In either case, it's not an option I'd employ with Hibbert.
    Last edited by count55; 01-09-2012 at 12:48 PM.

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  26. #72
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Thanks for the info, count. Something still does not jibe though. Nick Collison's "signing bonus" is for $6.5m while the rest of his extension is for $11m. Now 6.5/(11+6.5) isn't 20% as would be required for a true signing bonus, so there must be something else at work.

  27. #73
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Thanks for the info, count. Something still does not jibe though. Nick Collison's "signing bonus" is for $6.5m while the rest of his extension is for $11m. Now 6.5/(11+6.5) isn't 20% as would be required for a true signing bonus, so there must be something else at work.
    Just got an e-mail from Larry, and he says the rule is still there for teams under the cap. It allows those teams to treat it as a "renegotiation" instead of an extension. However, the section he referred me to was the same one I quoted below, so I don't know whether it's allowable, because it's not expressly forbidden, or what.

    I sent him a follow up about the size of Collison's bonus vs. the total contract, and whether the rule above also is in effect for rookie scale extensions, but haven't heard back.

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  29. #74
    Flipped Off The Refs Larry Staverman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    http://www.nba.com/2012/news/feature...ers/index.html

    Roy Hibbert, Pacers (17th)

    In this case, it appears the player is the one who's reluctant to do a deal.

    Hibbert has established himself as a promising young center, and big men are always in short supply. With the likes of Dwight Howard and Deron Williams unlikely to be on the open market next summer, no matter what they wind up doing, Hibbert and agent David Falk may gamble that the 25-year-old Hibbert can generate signficant interest on the free-agent market, even if he's restricted.
    "I'm not saying 100 percent we wouldn't do (an extension), but I'd say it's likely," Falk said Friday. "He likes Indiana, it's a great place, it's worked out well. But it's my opinon that generally, these things are hard to do. If I was an owner I wouldn't do one unless I got a discount ... I think more than anything else, the reason guys do extensions, in my opinion, is when you have a client who is insecure that he's going to get paid. I went through this with Jeff Green a year ago. I tell the guys, don't expect to get one. You're doing the deal a year in advance, and all you're getting is security. Centers don't grow on trees. If the guy has the confidence to wait, he's probably better off waiting."

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  31. #75
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hibbert's Extension

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Staverman View Post
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    http://www.nba.com/2012/news/feature...ers/index.html

    Roy Hibbert, Pacers (17th)

    In this case, it appears the player is the one who's reluctant to do a deal.

    Hibbert has established himself as a promising young center, and big men are always in short supply. With the likes of Dwight Howard and Deron Williams unlikely to be on the open market next summer, no matter what they wind up doing, Hibbert and agent David Falk may gamble that the 25-year-old Hibbert can generate signficant interest on the free-agent market, even if he's restricted.
    "I'm not saying 100 percent we wouldn't do (an extension), but I'd say it's likely," Falk said Friday. "He likes Indiana, it's a great place, it's worked out well. But it's my opinon that generally, these things are hard to do. If I was an owner I wouldn't do one unless I got a discount ... I think more than anything else, the reason guys do extensions, in my opinion, is when you have a client who is insecure that he's going to get paid. I went through this with Jeff Green a year ago. I tell the guys, don't expect to get one. You're doing the deal a year in advance, and all you're getting is security. Centers don't grow on trees. If the guy has the confidence to wait, he's probably better off waiting."
    Ouch.

    Honestly, Falk is right. Extensions factor in a discount for the team. If Roy is willing to wait, he's likely to get a better deal next year.

    Still hope he chooses security though - one less thing for us fans to worry about

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