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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

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    Default Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    At some point in time we are going to have to determine, in all honesty, how good are we? Was this a case of a declining Boston Celtic team just being too old and out of shape to play on the back end of a back to back game? Or was this a dominate team on the rise just taking care of business no matter who the opponent was? Or was it maybe both?

    Boston had everything to play for here. They had revenge on their minds, they are on a losing streak that they would want to come to an end and at the end of the day they are playing for pride if nothing else.

    None of that mattered. The Indiana Pacers imposed their will on this game and no matter what Boston tried at the end of the day there was just nothing they could do, this was pretty much over by the half and was definitely put to bed in the 3rd.

    At some point in time we are going to have to stop doubting, stop questioning and start believing. I’m not sure we are there yet, but certainly we are getting very very close.

    There are things to probably complain about, or to say needs improvement if you will. But in all honesty that would be knit picking at this point in time.

    One of the things that kind of struck me tonight was that early in the season the majority of our offense seemed to be being generated in the front court between West, Hansbrough & Hibbert. Lately however you see the offense coming from Hill, Collison, George & Granger. What I take away from that is that we have several offensive weapons to choose from and that we can go either way.

    When you have an overall system that works like that I think it’s safe to say that you need to look at the Coach and his staff. I want to point out one small thing that happened tonight by Vogel. It wasn’t a big deal but to me it just went to show that Vogel saw the potential for a problem, adjusted his lineup and insured that the outcome was what he wanted. In the first half George Hill picked up two quick fouls so he had to go with Lance. Instead of having poor Lance attempt to run through a million screens and picks chasing Ray Allen all over the place Frank brought Paul back in before it was his normal time. This worked perfectly as Ray did nothing and Lance did not get into any kind of foul trouble and Paul basically ran Ray into the ground with his athleticism. Just basic stuff of making adjustments and understanding player’s strengths and weaknesses.

    Let’s do tonight’s version of Odd Thoughts with the good the bad and the ugly.

    The Good:

    Danny Granger, after last night’s debacle he came out tonight hit some tough shots, played stellar defense and just never quit attacking. I think he and Paul George must have spent the summer working on odd falling twisting flip scoop shots because each of them have one or two a game and they both hit one apiece tonight. Danny was only credited with 3 steals but he was far more involved in knocking the ball free from the Celtics than that. Still shot more three’s than I would prefer but overall I think he was a great player out there.

    Paul George, for all of the games where he seems to just kind of be satisfied floating around and not being aggressive he made up for it tonight. He constantly attacked Ray Allen and pretty much just ran him out of the game. He’s to long, to athletic and to fast for Ray Allen to keep up with when he plays aggressive and attacks on the offensive end of the floor.

    Darren Collison, he made Rondo look like a member of the big 4. By that I mean he made him look old and irrelevant like the other three. Season high for Darren and every time he had the ball and Rondo was on him he viewed the situation like Boris Diaw views a ham. In other words he devoured him.

    David West dunk, where in the name of God did that come from?

    George Hill’s defense was outstanding.

    Our bench in general was great and once again we just overwhelmed the opposition with pure numbers and a deep bench. Their starters held their own to begin the game but it didn’t last once each team went to the bench.

    Big Roy had another good but not spectacular game. Just goes to show how deep of a team we are when he can just have a good game and we still kill the competition.

    The Bad:

    Rajon Rondo, wow talk about irrelevant. I could not tell if he was tired or just not interested. Obviously it doesn’t help when the rest of your club isn’t helping much but both Pierce & Garnett were trying and actually producing so why he couldn’t provide more I don’t know.

    Lou Amundson shot selection when he gets put in for garbage time is just that, garbage. Wait, never mind that is just his general shot selection. I love Lou’s game but since he has come to Indiana he seems convinced that he has to be an offensive threat. Take our word for it Lou, we need your defense, rebounding & hustle and if you can get a put back feel free. But leave the post up plays to Roy.

    The Ugly:

    Jermaine O’Neal’s face after Lance Stephenson trash talked both he and Kevin Garnett. It was actually priceless really. If you didn’t see it Jeff Foster went up for a shot hit it and got fouled by Jermaine. It was really a pretty good shot that Jermaine tried his best to block but didn’t get. To which Lance proceeds to tell Jermaine all about it. Oh that face was a thing of beauty and a joy forever for me. When they came out of the time out Jermaine was trying to say something to Lance but obviously Lance was having none of it and this irritated Jermaine even more, at this point in time Kevin Garnett stepped in and took Jermaine away. I don’t know what Lance said but I would pay money to have it on tape.

    Ok the guys now get a very well deserved break and then it’s off to the west coast to continue our world domination tour. Sorry that this isn’t any more analytical than what it was but as I said early on, complaining about anything tonight would just be knit picking.

    Now here is the question I want to leave everyone with. Is this five man starting unit for the Pacers right now as good as the starting five for the 1994 Pacers? The 2000 Pacers? Or the 2004 Pacers?




    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    That was a dominate post, Peck.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Remember all those posts saying how we could never really rebuild the way Bird was doing it? That we needed to blow things up? That we werent talented?

    Well guess what, this team is talented. It has a great mix of youth and vets that allow us to close out games we should (toronto and cleveland) and the ability to win on a back to back like tonight.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Dominant*

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    I didn't catch Stephenson's comment to Jermaine lol. I could see Lance being really irritating in an immature kinda way

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    There are things to probably complain about, or to say needs improvement if you will. But in all honesty that would be knit picking at this point in time.
    I want to disagree with this slightly. Either as a team we simply are not made up of good shooters (i.e. the 37%) or something is still not right with the offense. DC, Hill and Lance, the latter two especially, have recently been more aggressive and comfortable trying to create, both on their own and in the pick and roll. Today, Danny made a strong effort to get some points in the paint, while missing all but one/two of his jumpshots. I don't know if he'll start getting the lift he needs to hit the shots. There was in general more movement, better pick setting (probably just Jeff's presence), and better communication. But no team shoots as badly as we have to start the season without major talent or strategic issues.

    There is still a lot to work on for the offense. Vogel admitted as much in his post-game talk. However, I think that actually does give us a reason to continue believing. (I think most of us started believing in the playoffs last year if not during the beginning of Vogel.) Unless we are dramatically overachieving on the defensive end, we can only get better by tightening up the offense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Danny was only credited with 3 steals but he was far more involved in knocking the ball free from the Celtics than that. Still shot more three’s than I would prefer but overall I think he was a great player out there.
    Part of this can be attributed to Boston's sloppiness. I haven't seen Rondo be that careless (Like you said, he looked disinterested at times.) with the ball in years and Pierce was even worse. Having players like Danny and George who are long and can poke at balls (West even did one of these, I think.) and get in the passing lanes, while also having a guy like Hill with such a high defensive IQ is invaluable. The only place I'm concerned about for defense is the PF spot.

    One of the best Odd Thoughts threads tonight, Peck.
    Last edited by AesopRockOn; 01-15-2012 at 02:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    I would say that this starting 5 could potentially be as good as the 03-04 team. I was young for the other two, so I couldn't tell you. We never got to see just how good that 04 team could have been so it is kind of hard to say. I do know that this team is going to be really good and fun to watch throughout the season and playoffs. We are no longer a team that others look at and say "Oh the Pacers? That's an easy W."

    As far as Amundson goes I hope he works with the shooting coach and develops a consistent mid-range jumper if he is going to keep shooting them.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    If Lance grew up watching those JO lead Pacer teams in the playoffs with Foster next to him, I'm sure he could have said something really good to get under JO's skin.


    We're going to be really scary if we ever start hitting our shots because holy **** do we go out looking to create contact this season. I'd be interested to know where we rank in FTA's per game, even if it is top 10 that is a great place to be.

    Roy Hibbert's block on KG...oh...my...God.

    Darren Collison eviscerating Rondo on both ends? Also, an oh my God moment.

    Yes, the Celtics are slow and they aren't very good but at the very least we made them look just as bad as the Bulls made them look last night, so you have to take a big positive from that.

    Also, Granger is a great leader on the bench, when Foster got the And 1 mother ****a on JO, Granger leapt onto the court a solid three feet and just let out a huge scream (he had been sitting on the bench.) Everyone on this team is pulling for each other.

    Also, I love watching the DC/Hill or the Hill/Stephenson backcourts, it's like having two missiles that just go shooting up the sidelines as soon as we get a rebound with their heads turned back looking for the outlet pass. It's pretty cool to watch up close especially with DC and Hill as they have an uncanny ability to always get themselves on opposite sidelines and just take off as if they were sprinting against each other.

    We are a crazy athletic team, and personally I think David West's dunk was a bit of a go **** yourselves moment towards Boston. As soon as he got JO on his hip, he just made an extremely quick, powerful, and instinctive move to the hoop.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    If Lance grew up watching those JO lead Pacer teams in the playoffs with Foster next to him, I'm sure he could have said something really good to get under JO's skin.


    We're going to be really scary if we ever start hitting our shots because holy **** do we go out looking to create contact this season. I'd be interested to know where we rank in FTA's per game, even if it is top 10 that is a great place to be.

    Roy Hibbert's block on KG...oh...my...God.

    Darren Collison eviscerating Rondo on both ends? Also, an oh my God moment.

    Yes, the Celtics are slow and they aren't very good but at the very least we made them look just as bad as the Bulls made them look last night, so you have to take a big positive from that.

    Also, Granger is a great leader on the bench, when Foster got the And 1 mother ****a on JO, Granger leapt onto the court a solid three feet and just let out a huge scream (he had been sitting on the bench.) Everyone on this team is pulling for each other.

    Also, I love watching the DC/Hill or the Hill/Stephenson backcourts, it's like having two missiles that just go shooting up the sidelines as soon as we get a rebound with their heads turned back looking for the outlet pass. It's pretty cool to watch up close especially with DC and Hill as they have an uncanny ability to always get themselves on opposite sidelines and just take off as if they were sprinting against each other.

    We are a crazy athletic team, and personally I think David West's dunk was a bit of a go **** yourselves moment towards Boston. As soon as he got JO on his hip, he just made an extremely quick, powerful, and instinctive move to the hoop.
    Actually Boston made Chicago work to get their win as they actually came from 20 down to tie the game up in the third. The MVP did his thing or Boston might have pulled out the win.

    That wasn't the case here at all. That game was over mid way through the first quarter.

    BTW, agree 100% on the West dunk. I think there was absolutely a little extra mustard put on that hot dog for the Celtics benefit.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Also, I'd like to think that when Tyler relieved Kevin Garnett of possession of the basketball in the paint, somewhere tonight, wherever he was, it brought a tear to Dale Davis's eye.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    The defense was so good tonight, I also started thinking about how this team compares to the 03-04 team.

    The biggest difference is the 03-04 team had better big man Defense, Ron Artest, JO, Al Harrington were flat out defensive beasts. Tyler, Foster, Roy and DWest are pretty good, but they aren't as good as that 03-04 front court.

    This current team seems to have much better defense with our wings. DC, Paul, GHill, DJones and Granger are looking like one of the best defensive back courts in the league right now. The 03-04 team was relying on Reggie and Tinsley with Ron playing an extra large SF.

    You would think that 03-04 team had better offense than this team with Reggie Miller on there, but they really didn't. We had a pretty unimaginative coach in Carlisle who stuck to his guns (JO), we had Ron who was never reliable to play a team game on offense, and Reggie, who was never really that great at creating his own shot. He always relied on others finding him. Tinsley could dish it with the best of them, but I think they were pretty dysfunctional on offense. If anyone recalls the ECF series with Detroit, you know what I mean.

    This team is much more fun to watch as the players all seem to really like each other and there isn't some Alpha dog struggle going on or questions about our players sanity.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    BTW, I checked for myself, right now we rank SEVENTH in FTA/game, but we rank THIRD in FTM/game. That is ridiculous and when you combine that with our rebounding and our defense, it makes for a formula that allows us to not only survive the droughts we have on offense from the field, but thrive off of them. Only OKC and Miami are making more free throws a game right now, and both of them are doing it on more attempts per game.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    The defense was so good tonight, I also started thinking about how this team compares to the 03-04 team.

    The biggest difference is the 03-04 team had better big man Defense, Ron Artest, JO, Al Harrington were flat out defensive beasts. Tyler, Foster, Roy and DWest are pretty good, but they aren't as good as that 03-04 front court.

    This current team seems to have much better defense with our wings. DC, Paul, GHill, DJones and Granger are looking like one of the best defensive back courts in the league right now. The 03-04 team was relying on Reggie and Tinsley with Ron playing an extra large SF.

    You would think that 03-04 team had better offense than this team with Reggie Miller on there, but they really didn't. We had a pretty unimaginative coach in Carlisle who stuck to his guns (JO), we had Ron who was never reliable to play a team game on offense, and Reggie, who was never really that great at creating his own shot. He always relied on others finding him. Tinsley could dish it with the best of them, but I think they were pretty dysfunctional on offense. If anyone recalls the ECF series with Detroit, you know what I mean.

    This team is much more fun to watch as the players all seem to really like each other and there isn't some Alpha dog struggle going on or questions about our players sanity.
    Al Harrington? Defensive beast?

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Al Harrington? Defensive beast?
    Yeah, he really was back then

    Mind you that's eight year old memories and about 3000 beers ago.
    Last edited by PaceBalls; 01-15-2012 at 03:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    Yeah, he really was back then
    Al Harrington was a different player back in the day, I don't think he could even hit a three back then. That's all he does now.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    Yeah, he really was back then

    Mind you that's eight year old memories and about 3000 beers ago.
    I don't think anyone could ever classify Al as a defensive beast, his entire defensive repertoire consisted of the "pull out the chair" move as the guy was backing him down in the post.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Al Harrington? Defensive beast?
    Believe it or not before he blew out his knee we all thought that Baby Al was a good defensive player. In fact early on in his career that is what he seemed to thrive on.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I don't think anyone could ever classify Al as a defensive beast, his entire defensive repertoire consisted of the "pull out the chair" move as the guy was backing him down in the post.
    He was great in the passing lanes too, plus the dude was really big, fast and athletic, like Ron was. When Ron or Reggie went out the abuse continued with Al.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Maybe I am getting my years mixed up with Al, but I thought I remember him being awesome on that 03-04 team.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    Maybe I am getting my years mixed up with Al, but I thought I remember him being awesome on that 03-04 team.
    Al was a scorer on that 03-04 team.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Believe it or not before he blew out his knee we all thought that Baby Al was a good defensive player. In fact early on in his career that is what he seemed to thrive on.
    That would have been before the 03-04 season.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Believe it or not before he blew out his knee we all thought that Baby Al was a good defensive player. In fact early on in his career that is what he seemed to thrive on.
    Oh yeah... I remember when he blew the knee out and was carried off the court... that was sad. He was a good defensive player back then.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    That would have been before the 03-04 season.
    Oh yea, way before. I'm talking way back in the day like 99 through 01 (maybe I don't remember what year he blew out his knee).


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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Also, I'd like to think that when Tyler relieved Kevin Garnett of possession of the basketball in the paint, somewhere tonight, wherever he was, it brought a tear to Dale Davis's eye.
    Too bad Dale Davis doesn't ****ing cry.

    (Except during the beginning of Up. That was pretty sad.)

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Putting the Celtics out to pasture

    Can't see the interaction on TV but you can see Foster smile after Lance says something inaudible.

    I remember Foster taking subtle jabs at Jermaine after he left so I'm sure he enjoyed what Lance had to say.

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