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Thread: Saints @ 49ers

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    fixed it for you!

    I mean, come on... one game behind Joe freakin' Montana for most career playoff wins, with a better winning percentage, passed for 5,235 yards in a season while playing outdoors, 3 rings, one year removed from being the first unanimous MVP in league history.


    Brady needs this AFC Championship badly. Overall, he has played poorly in the postseason since the Pats last won a SB. If the Ravens beat the Pats on Sunday (which I don't expect to happen) then the latter half of Brady's playoff career will be downright disappointing. Brady is a better QB now than he was when he was young, yet young Brady is the one with the rings.

    If he wins the Super Bowl this year then yeah a lot of people will have him as the greatest ever. It would be tough to argue with 4 rings, most playoff wins, a couple of MVPs, a 50 TD season, etc etc.

    If Brady had played better against the Giants in the Super Bowl four years ago then he would have already had the GOAT label locked up. I know he led the Pats on a potential game winning drive, but the fact is his offense had only put up 7 points prior to that against a team that they hung 38 on a month prior. Brady didn't play good enough in a game that would have made him immortal. No one would have ever been able to tough a 50TD undefeated season that ended with a 4th ring.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Prior to last week, Tom Brady was 0-4 in his last 4 playoff games. Since that time, both Rodgers and Brees have both won rings.

    I'm glad you brought Brady up, considering that it's been, what, 7 seasons since he's won a SB? About the same time that the offense started skyrocketing and the defense started plummeting.
    Tom Brady is still better than rodgers and brees.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    Tom Brady is still better than rodgers and brees.
    Who the best QB out of the three isn't the freaking point. Saying Rodgers and Brees is currently better, isn't an insult.

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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by MrHale View Post
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    im a niners fan and a pacers fan, this has been a great day . finally both teams back to winning
    I'm a die hard fan of both as well.

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Who the best QB out of the three isn't the freaking point. Saying Rodgers and Brees is currently better, isn't an insult.
    No, its just incorrect

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  7. #31
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    No, its just incorrect
    Thank you for pointing out that you disagree with my opinion and hold a different opinion. For a second time.

    We've noticed.

  8. #32

    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Prior to last week, Tom Brady was 0-4 in his last 4 playoff games
    No, that is incorrect. 0-3, if you count the Suoper Bowl as a playoff game.

    One Super Bowl (2007) & two playoff games (2009, 2010).

    personally I wouldn't count losing a Super Bowl game as a sign of futility, but whatever. After that, he had the only two one-and-dones of his career.

    You do also know that at one point in the middle of his career, Joe Montana was one-and-done for three times in a row, and that Peyton has (I believe) six one-and-dones in his career?

    Playoffs are tough. 15-5 is unequalled, as a winning percentage and 10 or more wins. Montana was 16-7.

  9. #33
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    So Joe Montana is currently a better playoff QB than Aaron Rodgers? The answer is no. Why? Because Aaron Rodgers has done more recently than Joe Montana, which is pretty obvious considering Montana doesn't even play.

    I'm not talking about best of all time, I'm talking about who has been playing better in the playoffs over the past 5 seasons.

    Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees have had more postseason success in the past 5 years than Tom Brady.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-16-2012 at 03:01 PM.

  10. #34

    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Brady has started 20 postseason games in his career. Two one-and-dones in games 18 and 19 don't indicate that the "last half" of his career has been a downer. Heck, if his performance was WORSE in each of those years and they had been a wild card team instead of a division winner, and won a wild card game, would that have made him better? He lost twice in a row in the round of 8. It happens even to the best of them, as I mentioned, three times in a row to Montana.

    Never has a sample size of two losses in a 20-game career been so over-extrapolated as a sign of a career slide.

    You can argue that Drew Brees is better right now than Brady, I suppose. But Drew Brees has never won a single road playoff game in his career. Not one. He also historically has not performed nearly as well outside of a dome, regular season or otherwise. His yardage record is an artifact of dome football. Brady is a dome? Well, his career passer rating is something like ten points higher in domes, even though all dome games for him are road games. I'd say his 5,235 would be higher.

    Brees can amass stats outside, like in SF, if he slings it 70 times. He just isn't the same, though. Not as precise, not as mistake-free, not as accurate. In the postseason, on the road, success for him is in fact UNPRECEDENTED. Zero wins. He is a lesser postseason QB than is Eli Manning, IMO, since Eli has got it done on the road.

    Aaron Rogers? What is the sample size there? He has has a grand total of one great regular season (this year), one great postseason, with road wins even (last year), one good regular season (last year), many so-so seasons, and a playoff performance that simply was not good at all (this year).

    Playoffs matter. Playoffs are tough. One loss, even two losses, or one or two wins don't mean a whole lot when there is a great sample size. When there is not a large enough sample size (as for Brees and Rogers), it's all we have to go on.

    There is certainly nothing to say I'd want Brees quarterbacking my team instead of Brady unless the game was inside, on turf, in front of home fans, preferably.

    With Brady it can be 30 mph winds in snow squalls on the road in Chicago, in sunny mild San Diego, in zero degrees at Foxborough, or wherever. He has performed well in those conditions.

    Aaron Rogers was remarkable this year. His mobility is something Brady cannot hope to duplicate. If he plays at a similarly high level for 2-3 years I would trust him to win a game as much as Brady. Right now though I can't say I would do it.

    Brady should have been the MVP this year, carrying statistically speaking a defense among the worst the league has ever seen, though I am sure he would be happier to be the Super Bowl MVP again.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 01-16-2012 at 04:10 PM.

  11. #35

    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees have had more postseason success in the past 5 years than Tom Brady.
    yes, marginally so:

    Last 5 seasons for Brady:
    In playoffs: 3 wins, 3 losses, average passer rating = 94.3, zero missed playoffs as an active player/starter (one season missed to injury)

    Last 5 seasons for Brees:
    In playoffs: 3 wins, 2 losses, average passer rating = 107.1 (94.4 in 2 outdoor games), two times missed playoffs as an active player/starter

    Last 5 seasons for Rogers:
    In playoffs: 4 wins, 2 losses, average passer rating = 104.4, one time missed playoffs as an active player/starter
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 01-16-2012 at 04:12 PM.

  12. #36
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    So Joe Montana is currently a better playoff QB than Aaron Rodgers? The answer is no. Why? Because Aaron Rodgers has done more recently than Joe Montana, which is pretty obvious considering Montana doesn't even play.

    I'm not talking about best of all time, I'm talking about who has been playing better in the playoffs over the past 5 seasons.

    Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees have had more postseason success in the past 5 years than Tom Brady.
    Don't forget Brady has lost a recent season to injury so there's a hole in recent playoff runs for him.

    I'd be hard pressed to take Rodgers or Brees over Brady to QB a team for me next weekend. Brady has already proven he's a cool customer in the playoffs in various settings and his regular season work is still solid. There's no reason to think he'd be the weak link in a playoff run for NE.
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    yes,
    Fixed it for you. That's all you needed to say.

    It's like the PM vs. TB debate was flipped on it's head. For years we were told Brady was better by the simple fact that he won more. (along with Ben) Now that other QBs are winning more than Tom, you now need to look at their personal stats.

    Since we've gotten caught up on the pissing match between QBs, we can now revert the attention back to the original point.

    The best QB in the game is often times the loser. When it comes down to winning in the playoffs, running the ball and good defense wins out more times than simply having a great QB under center.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-16-2012 at 04:19 PM.

  14. #38

    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    4-2 is better than 3-3, I'll give you that, even though all four wins were in one single apparently exceptional season.

    Is 3-2 better than 3-3? I suppose it is, too, for right now. Let's see if 3-3 becomes 5-3.

    There is no PM vs. TB postseason debate. 9-10 is NOTHING like 15-5, especially when the guy going 9-10 had a team good enough to perform just as well or better in the regular season, and in 5 of 11 years, also had a statistically superior defense (judged by yards allowed).

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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    I knew Indiana was a little behind on education, but we're taught that winning 60% of your games is better than winning 50% of your games.

    Maybe 60=50 in other areas of the country, but here? 60>50 all day every day.

  16. #40

    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    It would be better if you had the same sample size, right?

    3-2 is fixed, for a year anyway. And Brees has never won a single playoff game in any season but one.
    3-3 is not fixed. It may be 3-4, 4-4, or 5-3 really soon.

    5-3 is better than 3-2. 0.625 > 0.600.

    Got it?

    Alex Smith is 1-0. Maybe you want to go with him?

    If Shaq hit 2 free throws in a row one night and Reggie made 3 of 4, wouldn't you rather see both of them shoot a few more before you decide who is best to shoot the T? In this case, one guy is still shooting. Over his career, he's more like Reggie than Shaq. I'll wait and see if they go in.

    And 15-5 is a hell of a lot better than 3-2. Why establish an artificial barrier going back in time? By the eyeballs of any sane person, the quarterbacking ability of Brady 2010 and 2011 is better than Brady of 2001, 2002, 2003. Accuracy, arm strength, consistency, ability to read defenses, even throwing while not stationary are all factors that he has improved due to refined mechanics.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 01-16-2012 at 05:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    It would be better if you had the same sample size, right?

    3-2 is fixed, for a year anyway. And Brees has never won a single playoff game in any season but one.
    3-3 is not fixed. It may be 3-4, 4-4, or 5-3 really soon.

    That's not true about Brees. He won the Super Bowl in 2009, but also won playoff games in the 2006 and 2011 seasons. In 2006, the Brees-led Saints had a bye in the first round and then beat the Eagles in the division round before being slaughtered in the NFC Championship by Chicago. And this year the Saints beat the Lions in Wild Card weekend before losing to San Francisco. So Brees has won a playoff game in 3 of his 6 Saints seasons.

    For some strange reason, profootball reference omits the Detroit game from Brees's playoff game log. Someone better fix that.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.co...Dr00/gamelog//

    Brees certainly could use a road win on his playoff resume'. But overall he played very very well against SF. Certainly well enough to win if his defense didn't let Alex Smith own them. I'm sure Brees and the Saints are heated at how that one ended and will be on a tear next season to get home field advantage. If they get the top seed then there is a great chance they become the first team to ever play a Super Bowl at home given that it's in N.O. next year.

    It just has to tear the Saints up knowing that they would be hosting the NFC title game this week if they could have just stopped the Niners.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-16-2012 at 06:25 PM.

  18. #42
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I'm sure Brees and the Saints are heated at how that one ended and will be on a tear next season to get home field advantage. If they get the top seed then there is a great chance they become the first team to ever play a Super Bowl at home given that it's in N.O. next year.
    While still in their championship window, you think they'd shore up their weaknesses and really try extra hard to make a run for it when the SB is in their home town?

    What kind of foolish thinking is that?
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  20. #43

    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Patriots fans worry that their current defense, not a bend but don't break defense" but rather a "break but try not to break into 1000 pieces" defense, giving up 411 yards per game, will not be fixed in time to avoid squandering Brady's best years. I would say that they thus have something in common with Colts fans, except for the fact that the Colts worst defense under Manning was nowhere close to as bad, statistically, as this Patriots defense.

    To say that it would be the worst defense to ever win a Super Bowl, if they accomplish that, is an incredible understatement. This defense is worse than the 2008 Lions, the winless Tampa Bay Bucs of the 1970s, and any other team in history besides the 1982 Baltimore Colts and the 2011 Green Bay Packers. It would be quite a feat to overcome that, and the Ravens provide possibly the worst of all matchups.

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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    I don't think the Patriots will have to worry about the defense screwing them over against the Ravens at home. If Brady plays to his potential, then that should be enough to get past Flacco and the Ravens. Of course, I'm sure the prideful Ravens defense will give him everything they have. But I ultimately think the Pats will make it to Indy.

    The real cause for concern is if you run into Eli and the red-hot Giants receivers in indoor Lucas Oil. That's where the D could really screw the Pats over big-time.

  22. #45
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    What is 'bad' about the Patriots' defense? Porous secondary? Can't stop the run? I've not caught a Pats game all year...

    I always thought the Colts would be better off if they were going to give up something on the defense to make it passing and not running. Go ahead and dare teams to throw and bet the other team will miss enough throws to help the defense out... But don't let teams run the ball and control the clock and pound the defense into submission.

    At least if you have a good offense you can get back on the field and have a shootout... as opposed to watching the defense plow you over with safe, effective running plays while your offense sits on the bench and sees the clock tick away.
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  23. #46

    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    What is 'bad' about the Patriots' defense? Porous secondary? Can't stop the run? I've not caught a Pats game all year..
    Porous secondary.

    There was a patch in the middle of the year where they also couldn't stop the run, but safety Chung and ILB Spikes missed a lot of games, have since returned, and shored that up. Mayo also missed a couple of weeks with a strained MCL and wasn't 100% when he came back. I think they can stop the run now. Pass defense has been an adventure. Belichick basically cut all the veterans, apparently for bad attitude and substandard work ethic, and has tried to coach up a hard-working collection of lower picks and undrafted free agents, hampered by season -ending injuries to signed free agents and higher draft picks. Their asset in the secondary is speed-- they give up major yards and attempt to compensate by forcing turnovers.

    Pass rush has been an issue too. They found gold in free agency when Andre Carter was near the league lead in sacks, but a month ago he was lost for the season with an ACL. Vets Mark Anderson and Ninkovich usually need a blitz to help them get pressure.

    But... Baltimore put no pressure at all on TJ Yates, Houston's O-line and D-line, were both dominant, but turnovers killed them, turnovers that were not particularly forced: a special teams fumble inside the 10 yard line and lofted passes into coverage in Ed Reed's direction. So Baltimore is no longer a monster D, at least compared to Houston, but are more mistake-free. Suggs, Reed, and Lewis are still factors, though.

    While the Patriots secondary is legendarily awful, the team has actually seemed to fix the issues that killed them in the playoffs the last two years: O-line pass protection up the middle and run defense, so Flacco I think will have to have a big day, rather than Ray Rice left, Ray Rice right, and Ray Rice up the middle.

    It's a compelling matchup, good D vs. good O, with questions on the flip side for both.

  24. #47
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    Patriots fans worry that their current defense, not a bend but don't break defense" but rather a "break but try not to break into 1000 pieces" defense, giving up 411 yards per game, will not be fixed in time to avoid squandering Brady's best years. I would say that they thus have something in common with Colts fans, except for the fact that the Colts worst defense under Manning was nowhere close to as bad, statistically, as this Patriots defense.
    That's not right either.

    NE is ranked 31st in yards (6577yds) and 15th in points (342pts).
    http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/nwe/2011.htm

    In 2004, the Colts was 29th in yards (5929) and 19th in points (351).
    http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/clt/2004.htm

  25. #48
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    It would be better if you had the same sample size, right?

    3-2 is fixed, for a year anyway. And Brees has never won a single playoff game in any season but one.
    3-3 is not fixed. It may be 3-4, 4-4, or 5-3 really soon.

    5-3 is better than 3-2. 0.625 > 0.600.

    Got it?
    No, not even close. So you're gonna give the same amount of respect to a 3-3 record without a ring, as a 3-3 record with a ring?

    Yeah, that doesn't make sense.

    Brees has a ring in the past 5 seasons, Brady does not. That's all you need to know about which has had more postseason success in the past 5 years.

    End of story.

    3-3 with a ring, trumps 3-3 without a ring by about a mile.



    Unless you're going to argue that Peyton Manning is a better playoff QB than Steve Young. He has 14 total playoff games with an 8-6 record. Peyton has 19 total playoff games with a 9-10 record. It's less than 10% difference in winning percentage, just like Brady and Brees. Who cares Young has 3 rings compared to PM's one?
    Last edited by Since86; 01-17-2012 at 09:29 AM.

  26. #49
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    Has Brady been back 5 seasons since his injury? Or are we comparing what Brady did in 4 seasons with what those guys did in 5?
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    Default Re: Saints @ 49ers

    I used 5 because it was a nice round number. Bumping it to 4 years, 3 years, or 2 years doesn't do anything but hurt Brady, as this was the first year he's won in the playoffs since 2007.

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