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Thread: Without merely citing statistics...

  1. #26
    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Teams don't game plan for James Jones. James Jones is a player who gets open because opposing teams game plan for his TEAMMATES. Without other players to draw attention, James Jones is pretty useless.

    I mean, Danny Granger scored 25 PPG on 45% shooting in his all star year, this was while it was glaringly obvious that he was our primary offensive threat. The defense was keyed in on him every single game.

    Are you trying to imply that James Jones would be capable of putting up those numbers in that situation? Explain.

    Sorry for using statistics, the data measure of what actually happened in real games, to support my argument... but its kind of relevant to the discussion, no?
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  2. #27

    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramitt View Post
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    It's Role player, as in playing a role, not doing somesault. That seems like a very narrow definition of what players are. I think a player can be a solid starter and not a star or role player.
    I agree that that's a false dichotomy. That's not the point I was trying to make at all. Clearly, all players don't fit neatly into one of those two categories. Hell, some players fall into both categories (James Harden, Jason Terry, etc.).

    Perhaps, role player was the wrong term. Maybe I should say "specialist" instead. Granger's value to the team stems from his ability to shoot, and he's a very good shooter (both threes and mid-range jumpers).

    My issue is that I think we ask him to do way too much more than that. I'd like to see a lot more of his touches going to Hibbert, Collison, West, etc. Again, not a Granger hate thread, I just think we're misusing him by relying on him for more than what he can effectively do. So, I was wondering if, and why, other people see Granger as more than a glorified specialist.

  3. #28

    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Danny is very, very good at getting to the foul line (possibly great or maybe even elite). None of the other players you mentioned are anywhere near as good in that area. And as people have mentioned, putting up points while the defense is keying on you is vastly different than standing in the corner shooting opportunities made by other people breaking down the defense.

  4. #29

    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Edit: Do you think Reggie Miller was just a jump shooter?
    No way! Reggie was able to contribute in a lot of other ways. In his prime he was a versatile and efficient scorer. People seem to forget that these days. He was also a very underrated defender.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    Are you trying to imply that James Jones would be capable of putting up those numbers in that situation? Explain
    If James Jones or Anthony Morrow were the primary offensive weapon in Jim O'brien's offense, yes, they could put up misleadingly gaudy stats too.
    Last edited by LongTimePacerFan; 01-13-2012 at 06:37 PM.

  5. #30
    one long Grimp-season ECKrueger's Avatar
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    I think this guy is just trying to make us say positive things about Danny so we realize how much we actually like him.

    Good work LongTimePacersFan!

  6. #31
    Member ilive4sports's Avatar
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by LongTimePacerFan View Post
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    No way! Reggie was able to contribute in a lot of other ways. In his prime he was a versatile and efficient scorer. People seem to forget that these days. He was also a very underrated defender.



    If James Jones or Anthony Morrow were the primary offensive weapon in Jim O'brien's offense, yes, they could put up misleadingly gaudy stats too.
    Cause danny granger didnt put up 20ppg agaisnt chicago in the playoffs with vogel coaching...

  7. #32

    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    I know it's just one game, but tonight's game exemplifies exactly what I'm saying. This is a much better team when we run our offense through West and Hibbert in the post, and allow Collison and Hill to be the facilitators. Granger's job should be to play off of that, spread the floor, and move well without the ball.

  8. #33
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by LongTimePacerFan View Post
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    I know it's just one game, but tonight's game exemplifies exactly what I'm saying. This is a much better team when we run our offense through West and Hibbert in the post, and allow Collison and Hill to be the facilitators. Granger's job should be to play off of that, spread the floor, and move well without the ball.
    You act like this isn't what we've been doing for the first 10 games of the season and as if tonight was some sort of revelation. When in reality, tonight was one of the worst game's we've played all season.

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  10. #34

    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by LongTimePacerFan View Post
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    If James Jones or Anthony Morrow were the primary offensive weapon in Jim O'brien's offense, yes, they could put up misleadingly gaudy stats too.
    Brandon Rush?

  11. #35

    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    You act like this isn't what we've been doing for the first 10 games of the season and as if tonight was some sort of revelation. When in reality, tonight was one of the worst game's we've played all season.
    I thought we played really well in the second half. Especially on the offensive end. We must have shot 50%, and we missed some good looks.

    Quote Originally Posted by pezasied182 View Post
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    Brandon Rush?
    Brandon Rush was never the primary weapon in our offense!

  12. #36
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...



    Ok show me the video of James Jones having the ball thrown to him to do a game winning play. I'm not talking about hitting a last second shot off of a kick out or a pass, I'm talking about where the entire play was designed to be a clear out for him to score at the end of the game.

    Also while I'm at it.



    BTW, play this one all the way to the end and listen to the announcer tell us how many points Danny had that game and that wasn't even his career high. Do any of these other players you put in Danny's realm have career highs like this?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  13. #37
    Member Indra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    You seriously can't just look at Danny's game and tell why it's leaps and bounds above the guys you just mentioned? You can't look at his game and tell that he is able to get to the rim and get to the line? That he's a smart player, plays well within the system, is able to hit big shots when called upon, is an elite defender? I watch fewer than 20% of the games and even I can see that.

    And Danny's leadership isn't about bravado and swagger on the court, it's about keeping guys focused in practice, talking to guys in the locker room, keeping the team together mentally and emotionally in a long season. You notice that his teammates and other players hold Danny is such high regard? It's not because he's James Jones or Reggie Williams. Danny's game is about so much more than that, and I feel sorry for you that you aren't able to perceive that.

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  15. #38

    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    BTW, play this one all the way to the end and listen to the announcer tell us how many points Danny had that game and that wasn't even his career high. Do any of these other players you put in Danny's realm have career highs like this?
    http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=281115012 ... That's just as impressive as Danny's 44 point game against Utah.

    But that's not the point. Morrow has never been asked to carry a team. No coach has ever made a concerted effort to make him the focal point of the offense.

    I honestly believe if you put Morrow on the '08 Pacers, in place of Danny, and give him the same role, he could put up 20-25 points per game. Hell, he averaged over 13 per game last year on only 10 shots a game. Extrapolate that to the 19-20 shots Danny got per game, and he gets there easily!

  16. #39
    Member Indra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by LongTimePacerFan View Post
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    http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=281115012 ... That's just as impressive as Danny's 44 point game against Utah.

    But that's not the point. Morrow has never been asked to carry a team. No coach has ever made a concerted effort to make him the focal point of the offense.

    I honestly believe if you put Morrow on the '08 Pacers, in place of Danny, and give him the same role, he could put up 20-25 points per game. Hell, he averaged over 13 per game last year on only 10 shots a game. Extrapolate that to the 19-20 shots Danny got per game, and he gets there easily!
    So you ask for non-statistical reasons why Danny is better than those players, then ignore all of the examples of why Danny is better than said players, and would rather talk about hypothetical statistics. And you're not trolling?

    Edit: Also, the 2010 Jazz were a much better team that the 2008 Clippers. Putting up more points on a better team is always > fewer points against a lesser team.
    Last edited by Indra; 01-14-2012 at 04:49 AM.

  17. #40
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by LongTimePacerFan View Post
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    http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=281115012 ... That's just as impressive as Danny's 44 point game against Utah.

    But that's not the point. Morrow has never been asked to carry a team. No coach has ever made a concerted effort to make him the focal point of the offense.

    I honestly believe if you put Morrow on the '08 Pacers, in place of Danny, and give him the same role, he could put up 20-25 points per game. Hell, he averaged over 13 per game last year on only 10 shots a game. Extrapolate that to the 19-20 shots Danny got per game, and he gets there easily!
    I guess I have no idea then what you are looking for.

    Is Danny Granger at the level of Koby Bryant, LeBron James, Dwayne Wade or Derrick Rose? No.

    Is Danny Granger at the level of Anthony Marrow, James Jones or Reggie Williams? No.

    Danny is in that tier of players that includes but is not limited to Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay, Andre Iguodala, Loul Deng, etc.

    You can argue all night long who is the best of that group and it would be impossible to prove.

    Now I have just given you video proof of a play that was designed for Danny Granger to do an isolation one on one play to end the game. As a bonus I gave you a designed out of bounds play for Danny Granger to get the shot.

    In both cases he won the game.

    What more are you looking for.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  18. #41

    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Danny is in that tier of players that includes but is not limited to Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay, Andre Iguodala, Loul Deng, etc.
    I think this notion is keeping the team from reaching its potential. Those four are all considerably better basketball players than Danny. There's a reason DG was buried on the bench behind Gay and Iguodala on the 2010 U.S. team. Coach K isn't dumb. Joe Johnson seems to be slowing down a bit (maybe that fat contract is weighing him down) but in his prime, he was the best player of those four. As for Deng, I think he is a severely underrated player, he does everything well.

  19. #42
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by LongTimePacerFan View Post
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    I think this notion is keeping the team from reaching its potential. Those four are all considerably better basketball players than Danny. There's a reason DG was buried on the bench behind Gay and Iguodala on the 2010 U.S. team. Coach K isn't dumb. Joe Johnson seems to be slowing down a bit (maybe that fat contract is weighing him down) but in his prime, he was the best player of those four. As for Deng, I think he is a severely underrated player, he does everything well.
    You do realize that you are aknowledging that Danny played on the U.S. National team? You know the one that James Jones, Anthony Marrow & Reggie Williams have never been invited to. The fact that he didn't play a substantial amount of time does not take away the fact that he made the team. He made it above several others who were cut and even more than that who were not invited.

    Ok, I'm going to be done with this now. It is apperant that you don't like Granger as a basketball player and would prefer he not be here and have no real agenda other than to get that point out.

    That's fine, everybody is entitled to their opinion. I never liked Jermaine O'Neal and thought he was vastly over rated so far be it from me to tell someone who to like and who not to like.

    Carry on.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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  21. #43

    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    [QUOTE=Peck;1346537]
    You do realize that you are aknowledging that Danny played on the U.S. National team? You know the one that James Jones, Anthony Marrow & Reggie Williams have never been invited to. The fact that he didn't play a substantial amount of time does not take away the fact that he made the team. He made it above several others who were cut and even more than that who were not invited.
    Fair point. Although, I think it ended up becoming fairly obvious he didn't quite belong there.

    Ok, I'm going to be done with this now. It is apperant that you don't like Granger as a basketball player and would prefer he not be here and have no real agenda other than to get that point out.

    That's fine, everybody is entitled to their opinion. I never liked Jermaine O'Neal and thought he was vastly over rated so far be it from me to tell someone who to like and who not to like.

    Carry on.
    That's not true. I do like Danny Granger as a player. I just think we should let him play to his strengths, which means letting him be a complimentary player, not a star.

    I guess I should have realized this thread wouldn't go over well here.

  22. #44
    Member Indra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    [QUOTE=LongTimePacerFan;1346738]
    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Fair point. Although, I think it ended up becoming fairly obvious he didn't quite belong there.



    That's not true. I do like Danny Granger as a player. I just think we should let him play to his strengths, which means letting him be a complimentary player, not a star.

    I guess I should have realized this thread wouldn't go over well here.
    Nobody said he isn't a great complementary player. In fact, that has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum. And Peck JUST said that he isn't a Kobe, Wade, or Lebron. He will never be somebody who scores 82 points, or nearly averages a triple-double over a season. He isn't an elite level star, and never will be. But he is a very, very good basketball player who has much more skill, instinct, and savvy than any of the players you listed.

    I'm not sure what you mean by letting Danny "play to his strengths," but he's still our best scorer, and I don't know if you've noticed but the Pacers are 9-3. How about you let the professional basketball coaches coach Danny?

  23. #45
    Member ilive4sports's Avatar
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Danny Grangers defense alone makes me laugh at the thought that james jones is kn the same level as him. Get outta here.

  24. #46
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    So this thread is still happening, huh?

  25. #47
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by LongTimePacerFan View Post
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    I think this notion is keeping the team from reaching its potential. Those four are all considerably better basketball players than Danny. There's a reason DG was buried on the bench behind Gay and Iguodala on the 2010 U.S. team. Coach K isn't dumb. Joe Johnson seems to be slowing down a bit (maybe that fat contract is weighing him down) but in his prime, he was the best player of those four. As for Deng, I think he is a severely underrated player, he does everything well.
    Trollolololol...

  26. #48
    Member Evan_The_Dude's Avatar
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    If salaries matched, would you trade Danny for James Jones, Anthony Morrow, or Reggie Williams?

  27. #49
    Shooting for the Moon Day-V's Avatar
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    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Really? This thread happened?

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  29. #50

    Default Re: Without merely citing statistics...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan_The_Dude View Post
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    If salaries matched, would you trade Danny for James Jones, Anthony Morrow, or Reggie Williams?
    good argument in danny's favor.

    perhaps this is another way to explain. it does involve a number though. danny has the ability to score 1500 points this season. none of the other guys can do that unless they are left alone in the gym.

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