View Poll Results: Where would you rank DC? 1 being the best, 30 being the worst.

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    50 42.37%
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    39 33.05%
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    25 21.19%
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Thread: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

  1. #1
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    Default DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    I made this list in the post game thread, but I figured, this is a topic that should have it's own thread.

    How do you all feel about our starting point guard situation in comparison to the other teams in the league?

    I know most people have been fairly high on DC so far this season, and I'm hopeful this improvement will continue. However, I haven't seen enough to suggest he is anything but a lower-tier starting point guard in the NBA.

    Let's take a look and compare just the starting point guards, in order of the conference standings. I'm comparing them on the basis of if I'd be in favor of a straight up trade of starting point guard for starting point guard.:

    1) Chicago - Yes. Derrick Rose. Obviously.

    2) Miami - Yes. Not as obvious. Mario Chalmers clearly outplayed Collison head-to-head last week, but when you factor in the amount of time that Lebron and Wade spend handling the ball, it isn't even close.

    3) Philadelphia - Yes. Man, I wish we had drafted Jrue Holiday when we had the chance.

    4) Atlanta - Yes. I prefer Jeff Teague, but I'm interested to see how tonight goes. This is the closest so far.

    5) Indiana

    6) Orlando - Yes. I prefer Jameer Nelson, but not a runaway.

    7) New York - No. This team's strength is a superior front court. Probably the best 3 man front court in the league. Rookie Iman Shumpert is the current starter. I haven't seen enough of him to suggest he's better than Collison.

    8) Boston - Yes. Rajon Rondo is elite.

    9) Cleveland - Yes. Kyrie Irving is already better, and has a chance to be a near-elite level player within the next year or two.

    10) Toronto - Yes. Jose Calderon is not much of a defender, but neither is Collison. I prefer Calderon, because he is much better about getting his teammates involved.

    11) Milwaukee - Yes. I'd take Brandon Jennings every day of the week. This will probably be the most contested choice of the list.

    12) Detroit - Yes. Again, I'd prefer Rodney Stuckey.

    13) Charlotte - Yes. DJ Augustin is a better player.

    14) New Jersey - Yes. Deron Williams. Obviously.

    15) Washington - Yes. John Wall is better already. The potential to be elite is there as well.

    So in the East, there's only 1 other team that I would say has a worse starting point guard situation than us.

    In the West, it's not much better:


    1) Oklahoma City - Yes. Russell Westbrook. Obviously.

    2) Portland - Yes. Raymond Felton is playing as well as he has in his entire career.

    3) LA Lakers - No. Derek Fisher is over the hill.

    4) San Antonio - Yes. Tony Parker is clearly a much better player.

    5) Utah - Yes. I'd much rather have Devin Harris.

    6) Denver - Yes. Ty Lawson is a clearly better player as well.

    7) LA Clippers - Yes. Chris Paul. Obviously.

    8) Dallas - Yes. I'd take Jason Kidd for the remainder of his career, he'd be great on this team.

    9) Phoenix - Yes. Steve Nash would be significantly better than Kidd.

    10) Memphis - Yes. Mike Conley is the better player, and has the potential to be much better.

    11) Houston - Yes. Kyle Lowry is the much better player.

    12) New Orleans - Yes. Jarrett Jack would have been a great fit with this squad. Wish we had kept him.

    13) Golden State - Yes. Stephen Curry is a near-elite player.

    14) Minnesota - Yes. Luke Ridnour is the starter, and is playing great right now, but I'd take any of the Rubio/Ridnour/Barea threesome and feel pretty good about it.

    15) Sacramento - Yes. I don't love Tyreke Evans' game, but he's definitely a better player than Collison.

    So of the 29 other teams in the league, there are only 2 that I wouldn't swap starters with right now. Yikes.
    Last edited by Mackey_Rose; 01-11-2012 at 09:24 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    I take it you don't like DC... You prefer a lot of guys over him that don't deserve it. Seemingly in a landslide... I agree he isn't a top PG, but he isn't a bottom tier starter either.

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownagedood View Post
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    I take it you don't like DC... You prefer a lot of guys over him that don't deserve it. Seemingly in a landslide... I agree he isn't a top PG, but he isn't a bottom tier starter either.
    Which guys do you think I overrated? Apparently you think there are at least 10.

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownagedood View Post
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    I take it you don't like DC... You prefer a lot of guys over him that don't deserve it. Seemingly in a landslide... I agree he isn't a top PG, but he isn't a bottom tier starter either.
    I think he is delusional. DC runs the offense very well, and although his stats don't show it much, he makes this team better. He is also severely underrated defensively. He May not be the best defender, but he puts a ton of effort in on that end of the court.

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    Which guys do you think I overrated? Apparently you think there are at least 10.
    I view these guys as better than him:
    C. Paul
    D. Williams
    Rose
    Rondo
    Nash
    Westbrook
    Parker
    D. Harris
    Irving
    Holiday
    Jennings
    Wall
    Curry

    The rest i view as toss ups and mainly prefer our guy over another. The grass usually isn't greener like we can sometimes think it is with the rest of the league.

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Winner View Post
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    I think he is delusional. DC runs the offense very well, and although his stats don't show it much, he makes this team better. He is also severely underrated defensively. He May not be the best defender, but he puts a ton of effort in on that end of the court.
    not delusional, too critical of DC perhaps, but MR does have a point. using the ESPN ratings, DC was the 94th best player in the NBA and the 25th best PG. that puts him in the bottom half of the starting PG's.

    zack lowe of SI did his own rating of the top 100 players and DC came in 101st. that makes him the 24th best PG.

    the exact order of the players were different, but DC was in the same place. the bottom third of the league's PGs.

    MR may be a DC hater, but he makes a good argument.

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Ownagedood View Post
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    I view these guys as better than him:
    C. Paul
    D. Williams
    Rose
    Rondo
    Nash
    Westbrook
    Parker
    D. Harris
    Irving
    Holiday
    Jennings
    Wall
    Curry

    The rest i view as toss ups and mainly prefer our guy over another. The grass usually isn't greener like we can sometimes think it is with the rest of the league.
    I would even take Holiday and Nash off of that list too. I think at the end of the year, Jrue and Darren's stats will almost be the same and Darren runs the offense better. And, Nash is really old.
    Last edited by Winner; 01-11-2012 at 09:49 AM.

  11. #8
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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    It's not a completely off-base argument, y'all... DC is a nice kid, but he has a lot of work ahead of him.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Jameer Nelson? really?

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Only areas where I'm not in line with the OP...

    Neither are really PGs, IMO:

    Stuckey
    Evans

    Not impressed w/performance; don't seem to team as effectively as they should:

    Jennings
    Harris

    Haven't seen enough; is he truly a PG; injury concern (so, in other words, not sure):

    Curry
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  16. #11
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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    I think there are close to a dozen great/elite PGs. After that, you have a ton of solid/good PGs. Even if DC is in the bottom third it's like the bottom half are all tied. The NBA is rich with PGs right now.

    And you rate J.Jack higher MR. Does he still jump in the air and throw the ball away (mainly TJ, but JJ would as well) for the Hornets? I'm very happy we have a PG that doesn't do that. So frustrating.
    Last edited by billbradley; 01-11-2012 at 10:01 AM.

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Jameer Nelson? really?
    Yeah, Nelson's borderline, but when he's healthy and motivated the guy is strong, tough, and has serious moxie, IMO.
    I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

    -Emiliano Zapata

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    You can't have a star at every position, you know. If Darren Collison is your weakest starter, you have a very solid team.

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    I wonder what this might look like if you did it on say, a Bucks board right now as they are playing terrible basketball and Brandon Jennings is shooting them out of game after game.

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Jameer Nelson? really?
    That one is close. I think when Nelson is right, he's a better player. Last year was the worst year of his career, and he still had better numbers than Collison with 13/6/3.

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    There's always a fair amount of "grass is greener" thinking on this forum. I, on the other hand, often suffer from "our grass is greenest" thinking. I would bet that I'm one of the few posters who has a higher opinion of DC now than before we acquired him.

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  25. #17

    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Jason Kidd? Luke Ridnour? C'mon man!!!!!
    Here we come lottery?

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Quote Originally Posted by I Love P View Post
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    Jason Kidd? Luke Ridnour? C'mon man!!!!!
    Ridnour starts for them, but he isn't their best player at the position. More often than not, he plays off the ball with Rubio or Barea handling it. Still for what he does, he's extremely effective. Honestly, that's probably how Collison would be most effective too.

    If you don't think Kidd would help this team out immensely, I can't help you.

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    ...Still need a few more games this season to start seeing what level players will rise (or fall) to and be their baseline. Everyone is still adjusting.
    O'Brien has been fired! Yay! What took so long?

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    I didn't read any of the posts before I answered the poll. I said he is in the 21-25 range, with him being closer to 21 than 25, IMO. He is one of the best of the bottom third of starting PGs. That is a solid PG, who you would love to have as a backup, but is replaceable as a starter if the opportunity presents itself. I think Collison is a very good PG, but at 5'11" 160, he isn't a world beater. I love his quickness, and would use him coming off the bench to push the hell out of the ball (in an ideal world). But he is too good to not start for us. I think he will lose that elite quickness at some point and he will be relegated to a backup role somewhere. I love his character and intelligence. I like his work ethic and quickness. His jumpshot really could stand to improve, which will only help him get into the lane with space at his size.

    He is our "worst" starter, but that is selling him "short". Haha. Ok. So.... he is at the prime of his career and we should make sure we let him do what he can to help our team. If a deal comes along where he is part of it to upgrade somewhere, I don't think including him should preclude us from taking the deal. I would love to upgrade the PG spot more than any other position, but that is not to "slight" Collison. It has more to do with his skill set that will wane "quicker" than our other guys. I kill me.

    Nice poll Mackey, although you are doing a pretty hard sell job in your OP.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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  32. #21
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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Why are we trying to **** on our young players?

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Quote Originally Posted by Winner View Post
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    I would even take Holiday and Nash off of that list too. I think at the end of the year, Jrue and Darren's stats will almost be the same and Darren runs the offense better. And, Nash is really old.
    Then let's trade DC for Jrue.

    I'd honestly rather have Jrue.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

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  36. #23
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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    I was going to start a new thread on the Darren Collison topic but will write a couple thoughts here.

    I'm not a big fan of his game, mainly because he doesn't have the court vision for a point guard, and he doesn't make up for it with size and defense.

    Last year, he was a score first point guard. At least he can be pretty good at scoring at times. But that's not what I want from the point guard, especially a small one hurting you on the other end.

    All that said, I have been really impressed with his improvement since last year. I'm not impressed enough to keep him as our starting pg, but nevetheless his changes need to be considered and factored into the equation.

    He has clearly stopped being a score first point guard. He's not that good at distributing the ball, but he has no doubt made it his mission to be a distributor first. Yes, I would like Steve Nash to be doing it instead. But nevertheless it is true that a bad distributor who is intent on distributing is better than a score first point guard who just intends not to involve the other players much.

    Our offense will be better this year because Darren Collison, the bad distributor, is distributing a lot more.

    Added to that, when he does now, at various and strategic times, take it on himself to score, it becomes a delightful, effective treat. He can score. He can hit big shots. He's got some skills, no doubt. When he calls his number now, I am no longer angry and resentful that he is a selfish player. Instead, I enjoy the show, now offered in moderation.

    Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I love his attitude and what it potentially means for team chemistry. Anybody see his interview after, I think, the Charlotte game? Whichever it was, I was really impressed. He articulated his new role as distributor. He knows what he's doing. He is in fact "teachable" as David West described him in a preseason interview.

    He is committed to a team concept. He is working the plan. I see him get angry at teammates who take bad shots. His attitude is affecting the whole team like yeast in dough.

    Now, if only he had good court vision. Then I would be really excited. I want a new starting point guard. Until then, Darren Collision is improving and is contributing in ways not obviously seen on TV, i.e. team chemistry.

    Who knows, maybe his court vision will improve. That seems like an innate thing, but I will cut him a little slack since he's showing himself to be a good soldier. If and when we get a new starter, we'll have one heckuva backup.
    .

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    Default Re: DC vs. the other starting NBA Point Guards

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    I didn't read any of the posts before I answered the poll. I said he is in the 21-25 range, with him being closer to 21 than 25, IMO. He is one of the best of the bottom third of starting PGs. That is a solid PG, who you would love to have as a backup, but is replaceable as a starter if the opportunity presents itself. I think Collison is a very good PG, but at 5'11" 160, he isn't a world beater. I love his quickness, and would use him coming off the bench to push the hell out of the ball (in an ideal world). But he is too good to not start for us. I think he will lose that elite quickness at some point and he will be relegated to a backup role somewhere. I love his character and intelligence. I like his work ethic and quickness. His jumpshot really could stand to improve, which will only help him get into the lane with space at his size.

    He is our "worst" starter, but that is selling him "short". Haha. Ok. So.... he is at the prime of his career and we should make sure we let him do what he can to help our team. If a deal comes along where he is part of it to upgrade somewhere, I don't think including him should preclude us from taking the deal. I would love to upgrade the PG spot more than any other position, but that is not to "slight" Collison. It has more to do with his skill set that will wane "quicker" than our other guys. I kill me.

    Nice poll Mackey, although you are doing a pretty hard sell job in your OP.
    Great response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Day-V View Post
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    Why are we trying to **** on our young players?
    Why are we so defensive when it comes to anything that can be construed as criticism about them?

    It isn't about ******** on anybody. It's criticism, meant to initiate discussion. This is a message board after all. Isn't that point?

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  40. #25

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    Wow...I would say dc is better than:
    Nelson: he isn't ever healthy
    Harris: guy isn't as good as people think.
    Teague: I know he is getting better but come on man.
    Chalmers; you have to be kidding me.
    Kidd: he's ancient If someone slit his throat dust would come out.
    Stuckey: yeah he isn't a pg.
    Jennings: yeah just terrible.
    Evans: he isn't a point guard.
    Augustine: I would actually probably rather have dj.

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