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Thread: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    If i were you i'd read that again smarty pants,

    "Certainly when Danny (GRANGER) and George (HILL) were out I had no hope of winning"


    was a very clear statement, they were out before the game!


    P.S. It is clear you read with the same glasses you watch the TV with
    Don't worry I know I don't need glasses when I know I can see that Tyler is a beast to be reckoned with

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    I think people on here over rate the good performances far more often then they get too worked up over the poor performances. My frustration with the team is that while the dynamics have changed, we have gotten younger and more appeasing to watch, the results are pretty much the same. Just two different mixes of the same thing. Erratic play, lack of identity offensively, poor guard play, etc. So, I don't see to many people saying anything new. People having been saying these things about trading Danny Granger, poor guard play, and lacking a go to scorer for years now. Same stuff, different day.

    What worries me is that we are a Kyrie Irving lay up away from being 5-4 while playing a fairly favorable schedule. That is not anything to get too excited about in my opinion. And we haven't beaten a winning team yet either last I checked. And don't give me Celtics, they have beaten the Wiz 2x, the Nets and the Pistons at home this year. They are a mess.

    You can lack a go to scorer on offense. But you better be good in every other phase of the game. And that is where we are lacking. We don't execute well enough, we struggle to play as a team, and we are careless with the basketball. And it's not just the young players either. We need to step it up across the board. And if not we should be looking to make a move at the deadline.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    You cant be serious

    I dont know what is crazier him being an all star or him being an All defensive teamer. Tyler plays no where near all defense. I would be happy would just average defense from him.

    and an all star come on now that is just crazy talk
    I said future ... and if he puts in the work on his end yep i can see it.. out of all the people in the nba right now, i bet even RIGHT NOW and would say he is top 10 in players as far as someone nobody wants to play against because he will lay you out, beat you up and make your life a living hell when he is out on the court... and I did say if he put the work in on the defensive end.. or at least alluded to..



    As far as all star, same thing future, and yes i can see it as a reserve.
    Last edited by Kemo; 01-10-2012 at 03:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
    "If my answers frighten you, then you should cease asking scary questions."

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Count55 had a tweet the other day, where he used the numbers from Synergy Sports about Dannys defense.

    Let's just say that you aren't even in the same universe as what has been happening on the court.

    I forget the exact details, but I'm positive it was measuring 27 iso plays where Danny was the defender. I know they resulted in 10, count em, TEN turnovers with a FG% at 23%. (I'm pretty sure it was 23%, but if not, it was in that territory)

    I'll go back through his tweets and see if I can locate the exact tweet.

    Danny's defense has been fan-freaking-tastic this season.
    Plus something people aren't considering, is so far this season, Danny is I think 4th in steals .. at something like 18 for the season thus far if memory serves me right.
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
    "If my answers frighten you, then you should cease asking scary questions."

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Wow there sure is a lot of hand wringing and worry over a team that by all indications is leaps and bounds ahead of where they were just one year ago.

    Did anybody really expect a vastly different outcome last night with both Danny & George being gone & Tyler being knocked out of the game in the 3rd & Roy working on a twisted ankle?

    Sure I wish Paul George would have scored 44 points and done a flying 360 dunk to actually set the net on fire. Sure I wish A.J. would have had a triple double and hit a game winning 3.

    But I'm not sweating it because they are both young players and this is what is called the growing process. You could already see Paul starting to learn a little last night as the game went on he began to run a two man game with Roy and got to the hoop and didn't settle.

    If we would have laid down and gotten beat by 35 points like the Miami game then you could start to worry a little, but that is not what happened.

    We were never really close enough to win but they never really were able to pull away either. We competed and IMO that is all you can ask.

    I think some of you are set so high on a championship that every time we lose you’re going to have a nervous breakdown. This is a young team, we have a new young coach, there are going to be growing pains and learning experiences.

    This is the team we have and will have for better or worse. I think its better myself but I am not going to criticize someone who doesn't think so. I may question your sanity but everybody is entitled to their opinion.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Let me start by saying that I want Danny on this team, as I think he is an excellent defender and a calming presence.

    Now that I have that out of the way, I would like to make my second remark. I was waiting to see what kind of season Roy was going to have and by all early indications, he has turned the corner and will be a solid big man in this league (of course, there is always the chance he regresses again; however, I doubt it happens this time). Now that I feel comfortable that he is THE cornerstone of the team, I am comfortable saying this: the offense should be built around Roy. Roy should get 20 touches a game. Not just because he is becoming consistent around the hoop, but because he is starting to draw a double team. He is an excellent passer and I truly believe Roy could become a Center who scores 20 ppg, grabs 10 rpg, and dishes 3-5 assists on any given night.

    As a coach, you don't look at a guy's hard work--which is actually paying huge dividends--and say, "Good job." You look that beast in the eyes and say, "Alright, Roy, The franchise is yours."

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    But I'm not sweating it because they are both young players and this is what is called the growing process. You could already see Paul starting to learn a little last night as the game went on he began to run a two man game with Roy and got to the hoop and didn't settle.
    I want to say, Paul George has improved by leaps and bounds at moving without the ball. And quickly. Like, between the start of the season and right now. It's like Vogel sat him down in front of game tape of Ray Allen. Like, I'd actually consider him one of the guys that's good at it. He really has the talent and brains to be special.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    Whenever i read your posts, which is becoming less, i must admit, I find you have seen a totally different team then i did, you see Dahntay play better defense then Danny, never seen Danny play defense(it was his major act in the first two years) You see Tyler as an All Star and even an All defense player!
    I look at the team and i see 10 players who defend better then Tyler, i see 3 or 4 players who would have more chance of being an All Star, if any, I see a formidable defender in Danny Granger (and no PG is not better, no where near even tbh). and all i can think is "wow" I want what he is smoking, only to remember i quite smoking all together 3 years ago.

    DJ never has and never will be a better defender then Danny Granger, but he dont have to be.
    It is why we pay DG the big bucks and DJ the chump change.

    IMO, Danny is probably the best perimeter defender on our team. (remember all the references to Pippen his first 2 years as a starter?) PG is our best on ball defender, bu he has mental lapses where he loses his man off the ball. D.Jones is all about effort, and muscle. But when it comes to overall defense (in the post, on the ball, off the ball, weakside, etc) Danny is easily the team's best...especially when he is locked in and focused.

    As for whether or not he would have made a difference last night, I think it's safe to say that if either him OR G.Hill play last night, we have a different game. Instead of having Stephenson brick that long range two during one of our rally's, it's 2 of our 3 best perimeter shooters shooting that shot. Instead of the Sixers leaving D. Jones or Price or Stephenson to double Roy, they are leaving either Hill or George. D.Jones had a pretty decent game (outside of a few errant shots/defensive lapses) but when you lose Granger and Hill, you're loosing AT LEAST 30-35ppg, not to mention stellar perimeter defense. How anyone could come away with much disappointment following last night's performance, is beyond me.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Wow there sure is a lot of hand wringing and worry over a team that by all indications is leaps and bounds ahead of where they were just one year ago.
    This is where I disagree with most of the board.

    I think we'll get better. But at this point, I can't say I think we're better than we were at the end of last season. We've played 9 games. Only 3 of them were against potential playoff teams. We've been wiped off the floor by two of those teams. (Last night's game was not as close as the score indicated in my opinion.) We beat one of them which, while a good win, Boston hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire early. We played pretty well against Charlotte and weren't awful against New Jersey. Other than that, we've played pretty bad basketball. The fact that it resulted in wins against the likes of Detroit, Toronto, and Cleveland (which should have been a loss were it not for an incomprehensible missed layup) is not a good indication of a team who has gotten drastically better.

    The lockout certainly puts us behind the 8-ball but it does the same to everyone else. And we had less turnover than a lot of the teams in the league.

    I think we're about the same as we were last year. Not a lottery team but not a threat to win a series. That's not bad but it's not the huge progression that is being talked about.

    There have been some encouraging signs from players individually. But this still feels like a mismatched group of parts to me. And I don't see it ending much better than last year without some changes.
    Last edited by BRushWithDeath; 01-10-2012 at 04:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    This is where I disagree with most of the board.

    I think we'll get better. But at this point, I can't say I think we're better than we were at the end of last season. We've played 9 games. Only 3 of them were against potential playoff teams. We've been wiped off the floor by two of those teams. (Last night's game was not as close as the score indicated in my opinion.) We beat one of them which, while a good win, Boston hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire early. We played pretty well against Charlotte and weren't awful against New Jersey. Other than that, we've played pretty bad basketball. The fact that it resulted in wins against the likes of Detroit, Toronto, and Cleveland (which should have been a loss were it not for an incomprehensible missed layup) is not a good indication of a team who has gotten drastically better.

    The lockout certainly puts us behind the 8-ball but it does the same to everyone else. And we had less turnover than a lot of the teams in the league.

    I think we're about the same as we were last year. Not a lottery team but not a threat to win a series. That's not bad but it's not the huge progression that is being talked about.

    There have been some encouraging signs from players individually. But this still feels like a mismatched group of parts to me. And I don't see it ending much better than last year without some changes.
    But you didn't pay attention to my very specifically worded point. I said "just one year ago", well just one year ago we still had O'Brien as coach, still were playing stretch fours, Paul George was sometimes inactive, James Posey was getting large min.

    No, IMO, there is a vast VAST VAST improvement over just one year ago today.

    Now are we leaps and bounds better than when Frank took over? Well, some yes but it's still a work in progress.

    But I will take right now over what I have seen for the past 3 1/2 years.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    The lockout certainly puts us behind the 8-ball but it does the same to everyone else. And we had less turnover than a lot of the teams in the league.
    While it does hurt every team, we are in a distinct disadvantage compared to the majority of teams. Most good teams haven't gone through as much change from last year to this year. We have added two new key pieces while losing other key pieces, and we have a rookie head coach and coaching staff. Most playoff teams haven't had as much change from last year to this year.

    Although that is no excuse for poor shooting, that is on the players.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    But I will take right now over what I have seen for the past 3 1/2 years.
    No question.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemo View Post
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    I said future ... and if he puts in the work on his end yep i can see it.. out of all the people in the nba right now, i bet even RIGHT NOW and would say he is top 10 in players as far as someone nobody wants to play against because he will lay you out, beat you up and make your life a living hell when he is out on the court... and I did say if he put the work in on the defensive end.. or at least alluded to..



    As far as all star, same thing future, and yes i can see it as a reserve.

    There is no way he ever makes an all star team. He is way to one dimensional he doesnt defend he doesnt pass he plays with energy but so do a lot of players.


    Kevin Love for example(who barley made the team last year)

    is a great passer

    the best rebounder at his position especially on the offensive glass just pure effort.

    Better scorer much better mid range shooter

    Tyler has no post game Kevin Love has a very good post game

    a average defender is very smart normally in the right spot at the right time.(something Tyler isnt he is normally in the wrong spot)

    also shot 47%



    Lamarcus Aldridge averaged 20 and 8 last year on 50% shooting was left out with decent defense.

    I just think saying he will make an all star game is pure homerism he has no shot. Saying he will be on the all defensive team is beyond homerism he will be lucky to become just a decent overall defender.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    But I will take right now over what I have seen for the past 3 1/2 years.
    That 3-1/2 years were the worst I've ever been through as a Pacer fan and I've been going to games since they hung curtains up in MSA to hide the empty seats.

    I stayed at home for 2 months last season and was not ever coming back if JOB hadn't been fired. I hated that coach with a passion that has not subsided yet. Much to the chagrin of a few posters, I'll probably be taking shots at JOB till the end of time.

    So far this season I'm having a hard time keeping things in prospective, each loss hurts more than usual. I guess I'm just win starved and want them all.

    I really love this team, I hope we can just come close to my sometimes ridiculous expectations.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    That 3-1/2 years were the worst I've ever been through as a Pacer fan and I've been going to games since they hung curtains up in MSA to hide the empty seats.

    I stayed at home for 2 months last season and was not ever coming back if JOB hadn't been fired. I hated that coach with a passion that has not subsided yet. Much to the chagrin of a few posters, I'll probably be taking shots at JOB till the end of time.

    So far this season I'm having a hard time keeping things in prospective, each loss hurts more than usual. I guess I'm just win starved and want them all.

    I really love this team, I hope we can just come close to my sometimes ridiculous expectations.
    See I've been suffering through the same problem, each play I almost live and die with. On one hand that is horrible as I'm usually a wreck by half time but on the other hand I care and I mean I really care about this team again.

    By this time for the past three seasons I was stil following the team but I had checked out emotionally.


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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    There is no way he ever makes an all star team. He is way to one dimensional he doesnt defend he doesnt pass he plays with energy but so do a lot of players.


    Kevin Love for example(who barley made the team last year)

    is a great passer

    the best rebounder at his position especially on the offensive glass just pure effort.

    Better scorer much better mid range shooter

    Tyler has no post game Kevin Love has a very good post game

    a average defender is very smart normally in the right spot at the right time.(something Tyler isnt he is normally in the wrong spot)

    also shot 47%



    Lamarcus Aldridge averaged 20 and 8 last year on 50% shooting was left out with decent defense.

    I just think saying he will make an all star game is pure homerism he has no shot. Saying he will be on the all defensive team is beyond homerism he will be lucky to become just a decent overall defender.
    ok, if you are so sure, and I am just a homer, then if I am right why don't you take me out for pizza king pizza and celebrate when it does happen.. How about that? lol

    But seriously...
    If Hans keeps progressing at the pace he has been , barring injuries, how can you say he would not get picked by coaches as a reserve on the all star team one of these next 4 years?
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
    "If my answers frighten you, then you should cease asking scary questions."

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    The all-star game is more about name recognition than stats or skills. Although I don't think it is likely that Hansbrough ever makes it, it isn't outside the realm of possibility.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    The all-star game is more about name recognition than stats or skills. Although I don't think it is likely that Hansbrough ever makes it, it isn't outside the realm of possibility.
    I disagree to an extent I mean the starters are the only ones voted by the fans. The reserved are picked by the coaches. Of course there will be snubs but the best players normally go. Aldridge and Monta were 2 major snubs last year. Regardless I never think Tyler will play at an all star level. Like an Aldridge or Monta.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    I feel better this time around, but I don't see the difference between this start and the '09 start. Same wins, same offensive problems, same optimism.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I feel better this time around, but I don't see the difference between this start and the '09 start. Same wins, same offensive problems, same optimism.
    The talent here is much better than that team, that is clear as day.

    David West > Troy Murphy (x1000)
    Collison > Ford/Watson
    George Hill > Brandon Rush
    Roy Hibbert Now > Younger Hibbert who fouls all the time.

    Throw a healthy Tyler Hansbrough into the mix, a young stud (albeit, inconsistent) in Paul George, a much more engaged Danny Granger, and a superior coach. I don't see how that situation is even comparable.

    That team won some early games (the infamous 5 game win streak) after losing Troy Murphy to injury, playing Granger at the four, and some hot (relatively) shooting. They shot about 45% during the 5 game win streak, we are currently shooting closer to 40% as a team, with two of our best offensive players in terrible slumps (Granger and West will invariably start shooting better, a pretty reasonable assumption.)

    The Pacers have won this year by being an excellent defensive team, that shouldn't go away.

    I don't see any way, shape, or form that this year could be comparable to 2009/10. Even if the offense never comes, we will win more games merely because the defense is so much better, and I think its reasonable to believe the offense will come around.
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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Tyler's best shot at an All Star game will be much later in his career and will be the Dale Davis 'career achievement' type of situation. The year Dale Davis got picked for the All Star game wasn't his best year, and he probably didn't deserve it, but the coaches recognized how important he was for so long on a very good team and thought it was justified. I don't disagree and wish they would make those choices more often.

    Tylers best shot for awards and recognition will be in the 6th man award. I could see him winning that some day.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    I haven't read through the other threads, so if it's been posted somewhere else my bad. Didn't feel like it deserved it's own thread but here we go.

    The Pacers, of course, named Vogel, 38, their interim coach last season but most regarded his ascension as a stop-gap measure. Indiana was going nowhere and Vogel was viewed as nothing more than a seat-warmer for the next big name Larry Bird became enamored with.

    Instead Vogel changed the fortunes of the club when he took over for the surly O'Brien, piloting the Pacers to a 20-18 mark and a playoff berth for the first time since 2006, a competitive five-game affair with the mighty Chicago Bulls.
    "I want expectations," Vogel said. "I want them having the bar set high. This team is capable. We've got pieces in place to do some really special things, to take this league by storm."

    O'Brien, of course, was and for that matter still is a brilliant X's and O's guy but he could never see the forest for the trees at any of his NBA stops. A Cousins-Westphal type feud isn't even tabloid fodder for an O'Brien coached club -- it's almost expected. In fact, through all the coaching changes that come and go every year in the NBA, O'Brien was the only one who was once cited for not getting along with the administrative help. Yep, this is a guy who can alienate the secretary in the ticket department.

    It's almost hard to understand how an affable coach like Vogel sat under O'Brien's learning tree. But that's the thing about Vogel, he's a pragmatist. He saw how far O'Brien's my way or the highway approach got and shifted gears. At the same time he soaked in the tortured genius' basketball acumen and incorporated that into his repertoire.
    http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/18...the-right-path

    Explains a lot. He's just a straight *******.

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    But you didn't pay attention to my very specifically worded point. I said "just one year ago", well just one year ago we still had O'Brien as coach, still were playing stretch fours, Paul George was sometimes inactive, James Posey was getting large min.

    No, IMO, there is a vast VAST VAST improvement over just one year ago today.

    Now are we leaps and bounds better than when Frank took over? Well, some yes but it's still a work in progress.

    But I will take right now over what I have seen for the past 3 1/2 years.
    Yep. The team has been a slightly over .500 team since Frank took over, and no matter how you slice it, that's a big improvement over where we were when JOB was coach. Atlanta game is a big game, if we can win that game against a team that I think everyone would have to agree is playign good bball (wins over Miami and Chicago on their resume) then you would definitely have to say the team has seen some improvement.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

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    Default Re: Odd Thoughts: Philadelphia Freedom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    See I've been suffering through the same problem, each play I almost live and die with. On one hand that is horrible as I'm usually a wreck by half time but on the other hand I care and I mean I really care about this team again.

    By this time for the past three seasons I was stil following the team but I had checked out emotionally.
    Absolutely. Watching JOB coach this team into oblivion was downright painful at times, it was emotionally draining. That's why I just can't bring myself to be very negative about this team. Even my gripes (AJ vs. Lance or Lance vs. Dahntay for playing time) seem minimal when compared to gripes like Murphy vs. Hansbrough/McRoberts or Ford vs. Price.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

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