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Thread: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    well said BNG, its a combination of both
    I kind of feel sorry for the guy, just because he's having to completely revamp his game under Vogel. From gun slinging shooter, to having to show your game and score in the paint or mid range. Very different things are being asked of Danny.

    Dude is posting up now in the paint. No more eye piercing bright green light from 3. His shooting percentage is way down because he's not running up and down the court getting wide open looks. Scoring and shooting are two very different skills and we are seeing all of this play out. Quite fascinating, actually.

    ...and that handle. Good Lord, he cannot dribble and watch where he's going at the same time. With that said, Danny Granger is still a very talented basketball player. He just needs to be used the right way based on who he is. He is a shooter and a guy who can occasionally score inside...but rarely.

    Above all else, no more step back mid range jumpers. It's weak now and it'll be weak forever. I'd rather see him jack a 3.

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  3. #27
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    If Danny had decided to become a defensive stopper instead of working on his shooting, who much would he have played? Serious question. Most players can't play amazing on both sides of the ball, if they are expected to play a ton of minutes. They've got to have a break somewhere. (I mean, they can play good on one end, and great on the other.) So..if Granger only takes 8 shots a game but becomes the best defensive player on the team, does he play? Because ultimately, players are motivated by that too.
    On the Pacers that last several years? We have been so bad he undoubtedly would have got minutes. A guy like him is still going to get his 15ppg or so.

    But the way the team was constructed and the offense designed, he really needed to be a shooter. That much I can agree with.

    BTW, there has to be a happy medium between JOb's offense and the "performance" in Miami last night....

  4. #28
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    speculation at best

    If the desire to be a great player is there, then it doesn't matter if your coached by Larry Brown or Bobby Brown
    It does if you buy into what the coach is preaching.
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  5. #29
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    \ So..if Granger only takes 8 shots a game but becomes the best defensive player on the team, does he play? Because ultimately, players are motivated by that too.
    Not under O'Brien he wouldn't have. O'Brien's actions spoke louder than his words on what it took to get playing time and it wasn't being a lockdown defender.

    Your point is well taken.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  7. #30
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    If Danny had decided to become a defensive stopper instead of working on his shooting, who much would he have played? Serious question. Most players can't play amazing on both sides of the ball, if they are expected to play a ton of minutes. They've got to have a break somewhere. (I mean, they can play good on one end, and great on the other.) So..if Granger only takes 8 shots a game but becomes the best defensive player on the team, does he play? Because ultimately, players are motivated by that too.
    He makes 12 million, he is gonna play, lol.

    Why exactly can't a player play well on both sides of the ball? You aren't supposed to use one end of the floor to rest, so you can exert all of your energy on the other end. And not to mention the fact that Danny routinely mentions stepping it up on the defensive end as being key for our teams success.

    Danny Granger has been over rated on this board from day one. The thought of Bird telling teams he is untouchable is so beyond ridiculous it's not even funny. We need to be open to moving him. It actually might be the best thing for Danny. We need someone who can flat out score the basketball. Or a PG who can make this offense work. And he could help us get that. Paul George has shown he is just as good as Danny right now. it's time to make a move.

    The truth hurts. It's nothing personal against Danny Granger. But I want this team to contend for a championship and we still need a few more pieces. And I would much rather deal Danny to fill them than a bunch of our young players.

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  9. #31
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    He hasn't been overrated since day one. At one point in time he was an extremely good player and played both ends of the court. Then we entered JOB's second season and everything went down hill. JOB really held this team back from where it should have been. Imagine what Josh could have be omen decent at if he focused on an aspect of his game other than shooting the three, and improved that just as much as his 3 point shooting, or if Rush wasn't told to just go sit in the corner, or if he knew how to take advantage of our point guards. There aren't many coaches in the college or NBA levels that are a worse coach.

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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    LOL, not 3 bobbys

    man thats some good crack right there
    Crack is whack! [/crackhead Whitney voice]

  11. #33
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    He hasn't been overrated since day one. At one point in time he was an extremely good player and played both ends of the court. Then we entered JOB's second season and everything went down hill. JOB really held this team back from where it should have been. Imagine what Josh could have be omen decent at if he focused on an aspect of his game other than shooting the three, and improved that just as much as his 3 point shooting, or if Rush wasn't told to just go sit in the corner, or if he knew how to take advantage of our point guards. There aren't many coaches in the college or NBA levels that are a worse coach.
    No, he had 1 year where he scored a lot of points, and that was about 4 years ago. And at the time people were comparing him to Scottie Pippen, lol. That is over rated in my opinion. The truth is he just had a green light to jack up bad shots under JOB, and his scoring average spiked as a result. He has under achieved on defense since then. Mike Dunleavy scored more PPG than he ever has that same year as well. It's a classic tale of getting hallow statistics on a bad team.

    Danny Granger is an offensive player who turns the ball over a lot and takes a lot of bad shots. I've never been overly impressed.

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  13. #34
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    I think they were comparing his potential to the sort of player that Pippen was. They weren't comparing Danny to Pippen straight up at that time.

    And Croz I find it very, very hard to concede pretty much anything to you regarding Danny as you seem to have some kind of irrational hatred of the player Danny Granger. He can't ever do anything right in your eyes.

    Either way, some of the blame regarding Danny has to be on Danny and some will have to be on his basketball environment which encouraged him non-stop to take as many shots as he could, while paying lipservice to D. That situation has changed now and he has to adjust. That's tough most of the time and takes time to accomplish, but I think he can.

    It sucks that he will have games like against Miami, but that is probably something we will atleast have to expect to happen once in so many games in general (most players do have BAD shooting nights regularly aswell as GOOD shooting nights) and hope that he can make that transformation to a player that uses his skills differently.

    Btw I like Gordon as much as the next guy, but his injury history is a BIG red flag to me. IF he can play one or more seasons without missing major amounts of games then I would love to have him on or team.

    With regards to the team I think we all need to be patient. We have a team with a lot of potential, but that potential to a large part still will have to be fullfilled that takes time and usually goes with bumps in the roads from which you hope your players learn and grow into becoming better basketball players. Couple that with a coach who took over at about the half of last season, so he couldn't install a very complicated or refined system of his own and who no also had to deal with the lockout and the very short preseason in which to instill his new system and by having such a short time it will be almost impossible for him to teach/show our players everything to the details in his system. I can only hope some elements will be added along the road, piece-by-piece, but that's hard during the regular season.

    Either way, I preach patience and tolerance regarding our group of players, coaches and management. I know some of you will HATE hearing that and want the time to be now, but IMHO that pressure will only lead to us shooting ourselves in the foot by for example making a panick move.
    Last edited by Mourning; 01-06-2012 at 08:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Mourning, of course you can't concede anything, but the fact is the same concerns we are discussing now regarding Danny, are the exact same concerns I listed years back when I saw this coming. If you were to go back and read my posts about Danny, you'll see I NEVER said he was a bad player and I only used basketball reasons for my opinions. Because my opinion differed from the majority then, didn't mean I was a troll with some "irrational hatred" for Danny. My sole purpose for wanting Danny dealt then was to maximize his value before the league discovered that he was a one-dimensional player hyped up as something he wasn't. I made the same comments about Jermaine as well before he was dealt 5 years later for much less than what we could have received. So before you accuse me of "irrational hatred", why don't you read what I posted about Danny years ago and realize my concerns then are the same concerns now. Only then, Danny had twice the value.

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  17. #36
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    I'm not buying the blame JOB for Danny's regression. There's nothing to support it, and Danny seems to have issues with fundamentals (dribbling, passing) and mental (head down, bad shot selection), which would have been coached throughout his entire career. If anything, JOB played to Danny's strengths, which is a smart way to coach.

    I don't know if it's injuries or he's been here too long and he's burnt out, but right now we could take Granger off this team and not really miss much, and it's been that way for a couple years. I like Granger, and in some ways I'd like to see him traded as I think we could get something more useful back, and I think he could really thrive in the right circumstances, and for some reason Indianapolis doesn't seem to be the right place.

    Saying that, I want to see how this season plays out. The addition of West could really benefit Granger and I could see his game developing as he plays with an experienced vet. His trade value is probably at an all time low right now, so hopefully the added experience to the roster will help take the weight off Granger and allow him to find his place on the court. His defense seems improved over last year, and hopefully with time he can really find his place in the offense.
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Just wanted to add, watching Granger is the most frustrating part of watching Pacers games. He's been a black hole on offense and he seems to always have momentum-killing misses. I'm not sure how that works, but it always seems like the Pacers are either pulling away or catching up, then the momentum dies due to a Granger miss on a bad shot or turnover in the lane. It's killing me.
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  21. #38
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
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    He makes 12 million, he is gonna play, lol.

    Why exactly can't a player play well on both sides of the ball? You aren't supposed to use one end of the floor to rest, so you can exert all of your energy on the other end. And not to mention the fact that Danny routinely mentions stepping it up on the defensive end as being key for our teams success.

    Danny Granger has been over rated on this board from day one. The thought of Bird telling teams he is untouchable is so beyond ridiculous it's not even funny. We need to be open to moving him. It actually might be the best thing for Danny. We need someone who can flat out score the basketball. Or a PG who can make this offense work. And he could help us get that. Paul George has shown he is just as good as Danny right now. it's time to make a move.

    The truth hurts. It's nothing personal against Danny Granger. But I want this team to contend for a championship and we still need a few more pieces. And I would much rather deal Danny to fill them than a bunch of our young players.
    If he had been a lockdown defender under JOB, he never would have been paid 12 million.

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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    I don't care what Well's tweet suggest, Danny still has significant value and is paid reasonably for what he offers. He's trying to lead this team and until someone else steps up to help more with the scoring load, that's what I want him to do. Right now Danny is putting up 15 and 5, but he's shooting a little too much. Once his shot starts falling I'm sure he'll still average 18 for us this year. No one is giving him any credit for his defense this year. We have another X-All star on this team that's paid similar to Danny who's average 11 and 7 as power forward, but he can seem to do no wrong because he's the new guy and everyone is in love with him and all the intangibles he brings. Honestly, how many of you guys slamming on Granger are saying we're so lucky to have West? Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to have West on this team, but he isn't exactly playing like an All star power forward for us. I expect West and Danny to improve as the season progresses and we'll be a better team but I think West seems to be getting a free pass while everyone is all over Granger. If West could bring up his scoring to where Granger is now, and perhaps average a solid 8 boards as a starting pf, while Granger picks up his scoring and fg% we'll be a much more dangerous team.

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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    I think Danny is trying too hard with some of the adjustments he is making to his game to be a better and more efficient basketball player. He is a great shooter who needs to utilize his outside threat as a means to break down the defense. He creates spacing from the perimeter and can dribble drive around guys on an initial step since he is strong enough to overcome a lack of raw quickness. He gets around them and is ALWAYS late making the decision to pass, which in turn forces him into bad shots once his pass is not there. He needs to run the break for us more, IMO. I say this, not because he is great at it, but because he needs to practice when to pass and he has looked better at it (prior to the Heat game). I think Danny needs to not work so hard on the speed drive, but more with the pick setters. I would love to see West setting picks on the high wing for Granger. When the PF rubs off on DG, then he has that quickness advantage to get into the lane. When His man sags around DW, he can hit that three ball or mid-range jumper depending on where they set-up.

    I think Danny is making some real strides in the things he is trying to do. I just think he is struggling to add those facets to his game. I think it is a very good thing for his career, but there will be some pretty ugly possessions this early in the season. I just think we need to set him up to score better. Better picks, better off-ball screens. Less reliance on quickness to get him in a position to score. I would love to see him in the post more, but he needs to quit fading back so hard on his turnarounds and step-backs. He needs to turn and lift more than he is (Paul George has been guilty of this as well). When they lift, they are closer to the rim. When they fade back, they are jumping away from the basket. Much tougher shot.

    I think Danny needs to work screens like Reggie used to. Not JUST like Reggie did, because Rip Hamilton is the ONLY guy who comes close to that. But he needs to be working from the low post and utilize picks. That way, if there is a quick shot, he is also in position to help rebound. Danny needs to get comfortable with his game around the bigs instead of pretending to be a guard. I don't think this "funk" is a bad thing at all. I think this funk is a great thing for the team going forward, it just sucks to endure right now.

    Also, as for Granger's value, he is worth more to us than any other team. We are a team moving forward trying to add better talent. We can't trade him unless we get someone much better in return. Dwight, Deron, etc. But outside of that, it hurts us to trade our closest player to elite status, just because of what it means to the franchise. Not because there aren't better players or players with more upside. I thought we should have traded Dunleavy when he was in the middle of his 19-20 ppg season. I would advocate a trade of Granger only if it brought back a better player. Straight up for Rudy Gay, he and Darren (plus some) for Deron, he and Hibbert (plus some) for Dwight. A deal along those lines.

    Granger, please stop pressing too much, but continue to work on rounding out your game. Thanks.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

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  26. #41

    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    There aren't many coaches in the college or NBA levels that are a worse coach.


    There is a reason Jimmy was available when Bird hired him over the phone. The same reason he's not in the NBA now.

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  28. #42
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    I mean I like Granger a lot, but as far as Gordon being better than him all I can say is...uh, duh?

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  29. #43

    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    FWIW Gordons out 2-3 weeks with a knee injury..

    This season I can see a lot of guys getting hurt due to how many games are being played in a short amount of time.

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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    Just wanted to add, watching Granger is the most frustrating part of watching Pacers games. He's been a black hole on offense and he seems to always have momentum-killing misses. I'm not sure how that works, but it always seems like the Pacers are either pulling away or catching up, then the momentum dies due to a Granger miss on a bad shot or turnover in the lane. It's killing me.
    Another thing that's been frustrating for me in the season thus far. I can LIVE with the fact that they haven't developed a complicated offensive system due to the lockout and Vogel taking over midseason. I can LIVE with the fact that they're still adjusting to each other. I can LIVE with the fact that Vogel is experimenting with rotations to find the most efficient lineups.

    Granger is making some bad decision when he's on the court, and I don't care what anyone says....decision-making is NOT impacted by extended offseason time. I can understand if you saw the pass, and screw up on the pass itself (i.e. used a bounce pass instead of a chest pass, receiver wasn't ready for the pass due to no eye contact, etc.).

    Granger is NOT playing within the offense, and trying to play outside his skills (driving to the basket, running fastbreaks, etc) when there are OTHER players on the court with him that can do it better than him. Someone needs to tell Granger that it's ALRIGHT to be a jumpshooter on this team and focus strongly on defense, because we have more than enough offensive weapons to score with.

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  32. #45

    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

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    I don't know if it's injuries or he's been here too long and he's burnt out, but right now we could take Granger off this team and not really miss much, and it's been that way for a couple years. I like Granger, and in some ways I'd like to see him traded as I think we could get something more useful back, and I think he could really thrive in the right circumstances, and for some reason Indianapolis doesn't seem to be the right place.

    This isn't the same Granger of 3-4 years ago. I too have to wonder if Granger is truly happy here any more. Maybe a change of scenery is what he needs to change his game. I'm not advocating trading Granger just saying maybe it's what he needs to change.

    A few years ago it was discussed about trading Granger for Gerald Wallace. I was against it, b/c of Wallace's injuries. I will be the 1st to say I was wrong about not trading Granger for GW. As it turns out, GW would have been a great acquisition for the Pacers. He helped get Charlotte in the playoffs, and has really done well in Portland since being traded there. He plays better "D" player than Granger, rebs better, shoots 47.6% FG, and 32% from the 3. Portland got a really good player when they got Gerald Wallace. They knew what the were doing. Kudos to them.

  33. #46
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    The Gordon for Granger thing has to stop. Eric Gordon has only played 2 games this year and is about to miss the next 3 weeks. Dude can't stay on the court. Hasn't been able to stay on the court all 4 years in the league now. Simply can't compare the two anymore. What good is a shooting guard that misses half the season every year?

    As far as Granger's offense goes. Vogel just needs to implement sets for him. Try a pick and roll with Granger rolling to the basket to get 1 or 2 dribbles and make a move for his shot. I don't see why Granger wouldn't be a good Pick and Pop option as well. He is supposed to have an excellent mid range shot. But this crap with ball screens and hand offs around the 3 pt line doesn't work.

    But you all need freaking chill with the Granger hate because with out Granger we are easily 2-4 instead of 4-2.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 01-06-2012 at 01:07 PM.
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  35. #47

    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    [QUOTE=graphic-er;1338648]

    What good is a shooting guard that misses half the season every year? /QUOTE]


    Does that line of thinking apply to Foster too?


    People on this board love stats. Here one for someone to figure out. How much has Simon paid Foster for missed games the last 2 seasons and 6 games this year. I'll bet PD could throw one hellva a FREE party for all it's members in Los Vegas with the answer.

  36. #48
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Does that line of thinking apply to Foster too?
    I'd say that line of thinking does not apply to Foster. Your team can survive with Foster only playing limited minutes/games. But if you are trading for a 20PPG SG getting paid 10mil+ (future contract) that you are relying on to be a major focus of your offense, sitting out 20-30 games a season probably hurts a little more.

  37. #49
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    Just wanted to add, watching Granger is the most frustrating part of watching Pacers games. He's been a black hole on offense and he seems to always have momentum-killing misses. I'm not sure how that works, but it always seems like the Pacers are either pulling away or catching up, then the momentum dies due to a Granger miss on a bad shot or turnover in the lane. It's killing me.
    Yet your going to discount that Danny has already this season hit big shots in both the Toronto & Cleveland games to secure the victory's?


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  38. #50
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    Default Re: Wow, So the word is out apparently?

    actually kind of surprised to hear this. I thought the league overrated Danny, which made me think we can get someone a lot better in return.

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