In 49 states it's just basketball, but this is Indiana!
Plenty of teams have gotten off to shakey starts, but I wouldn't say 4-2 is bad.
I'm still confident we'll reach expectations this season and get the 5th or so seed in the East.
In 49 states it's just basketball, but this is Indiana!
You show PnR and you set up so their "roll" cover defender is going to come off a shooter. Have West (example) come set the screen for Danny or Paul coming to the top. They already do a rotation to come up and take the pass back across the top when DC gets stuck, so why not setup low, come up the lane and let the roll man screen him off instead.
Something along those lines. Because the other tradeoff on a double/hedge is that there will be nobody with that man to switch if he sets a screen, and often the recovering player that comes back off the double doesn't realize that he's needed in a switch because it's already happened.
But that's just high PnR. I think the wing PnSlips are working more than some of the other stuff because teams are doubling it hard and that bounce pass from the wings is more available past the double.
But then the counter there is to rotate as we are slipping and Miami did that last night on Lou. If you know they are going to do it then maybe you can also slash the lane from the weak elbow and give the Slip guy a bounce pass layup option behind the guy coming across to stop the slip.
That's the kind of "next layer" I'm getting at. Maybe Vogel just hasn't been able to get them to that awareness or comfort yet, or maybe they haven't cranked up the playbook to that next level.
But teams have given up advantages to be aggressive with a lot of doubles or traps and so far the team has been mostly caught off guard with no counter-measures in place.
T'Bird would be a lot more helpful here.
I did add the post to counter the negative tone. But the thread exists for a reason, which is the play against Chicago and Miami suggest this team is not ready for the prime-time and not really very dialed in.
The NJ game was ugly as can be as was the Detroit loss.
Lots of positives to be seen, but overall offensive flow is not one of them.
It is the best structured roster in years. I just don't need to rant about it because I don't think many people debate it. Less words but it carries as much positive weight as all the offensive problems discussion does. It's no small thing to have balance, youth and an enviable cap position.
In 49 states it's just basketball, but this is Indiana!
My biggest frustration is Danny, but I expect his game to come around. I am a bit impatient With George, but he is ahead of where people said he would be when we drafted him. Most said it would take him a couple of years to develop.
I am most concerned with the ball handling and passing skills of our two starting wing players... Something that I am hopeful George will improve on... Danny though seems to actually be regressing in these departments... And that is bad when he was never good at them to start with...
Tyler coming off the bench... Is it a coincidence that his two best games (in the preseason) had him starting? Does he maybe feel less pressure to score as a starter therefore causing him to let the game come to him as opposed to forcing things? I don't know...
The use of Lance over AJ at backup point... I feel AJ is better there RIGHT NOW... I understand the purpose of getting Lance out there to get his game on and see if he can develop like many believe he can, but it is hurting us RIGHT NOW... BTW - I keep emphasizing RIGHT NOW because I do think Project Give Lance A Chance could benefit us in the long run... I'm not banking on it though...
Our offensive game plan is way too simple and I feel it is a big reason for our struggles on that side of the ball... The opposing teams know what we are trying to do 90% of the time... Vogel seems to have taken us to the complete opposite of JOB ball in this regard when somewhere in between would prolly be ideal... Then again the shortened preseason and less practice time throughout the weeks of the season coupled with Frank's focus on D through training camp and preseason could have a lot to do with this... We should be improved there by mid-season...
Overall I'm not worried though... This is still the best team we've had in years... We have a young team so I expect things to get better with them... And we still have all that cap space if we need to shake up or shore up the roster close to the trade deadline... I still expect us to make the playoffs and give a good fight at the very least... And a trip to the Finals is our ceiling... Gonna be a crazy year!
Nothing in life worth having comes easy.
A few things...
- This team doesn't seem to be together on the floor. I didn't see anybody else upset when D-West got hit with a tech, everybody just kinda watched him or whatever.
-Fear that Paul George will always defer to older players on the team, especially Granger.
-Paul George won't show much emotion on the court.
-Fear that Danny Granger won't adapt to his new surroundings and continues shooting when there is a guy wide open right in front of him.
- Roy Hibbert not dominating smaller centers like he should.
- Paul George and David West are getting taken out of the game without time to find their rhythm.
-The bench unit continues to struggle to score.
It's too soon to throw the panic switch and whether the record was 2-4 or 4-2 doesn't matter at this juncture. What matters is how the flaws that are readily apparent are addressed. The team needs to find a rhythm. It'll take 10 games to start seeing what things are correcting and what things are remaining troublesome. By 15-20 games, regardless of record, we'll have a good idea of where this team really is.
The team doesn't need Danny Granger to find a way to become the second coming of Reggie Miller.... But they do need to find a way for him to become the second coming of Danny Granger.
Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.
"A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."
And P.S... Isnt there any kind of way we can get Coach Vogel to read some of Seths posts?? Great stuff man...
Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/Hookjaw_Rox
I agree; I hate the pre-set subbing for West and George. Paul was in a flow 3 quick baskets( 2 of which were 3's) in the first 5 minutes vs the Heat and boom at pre-set time he's replaced by Hill. Paul never got back into the flow again. I prefer what Slick Leonard use to do ride the hot player till he cools off.
The same has occured with David West he gets on a roll and boom pre-set time for Tyler to enter. West is still struggling with lift after his surgery but while he's warm from playing let him go a couple extra minutes before he's pre-determined replaced .
Collison has looked better at the point and George Hill is slowly proving he's a limited minutes point guard.
I'm not the biggest Roy Hibbert fan but sometimes it appears Vogel forgets he's on the team after removing him and stays dead fast with his pre-determined rotation.
i guess my biggest gripe is you can set your watch to when Frank will sub no matter how the game flow is going , sometimes you just have to wing it play who is hot and sub when they cool. Its not youth ymca ball where everyone must play a certain number of minutes.
What the hell is up with that ballboy??!!? He's going to cause injuries if he doesn't start to hustle.
Also feel Boomer is starting to just mail it in. He's not throwing down his trampoline dunks with the same passion...
My biggest concern is how we all overreact to the first 5 games of the season.
My greatest concern is that we have waited only 5 games to to panic. Keep in mind training camp plus preseason is supposed to be 4 weeks and today is actually 4 weeks - training camp started on December 9th. So the Pacers should be starting their regular season sometime this weekend.
As I watch games not involving the Pacers, I see teams that often look horrible (teams that are supposed to be a lot better than the Pacers). I think the first two weeks of this regular season should be thrown out, but teams are all over the place.
So I am not going to respond to this type of topic for another at least two weeks. By the time we get to the forum party, we might be in a better position to draw some conclusions
this mainly. things like danny's shooting are something to worry about 20 games into the season, not 5.
it looks like the pacers are not a deep a team as we'd thought.
DC, GH, dwest, danny, PG, roy, tyler seem to be the guys that frank has faith in to play 30 mpg. with the shortened season, that leaves the pacers short of guys. playing guys longer than 30 mpg seems counterproductive. either lance or AJ needs to play some productive minutes in the backcourt and amundson and/or one of the jeffs needs to put in some productive minutes in the frontcourt. pacers need to play more guys more minutes. and those guys need to play well.
Concerned about our consistency and ability to maintain intensity for 48 minutes. Danny Granger's shot has been off the entire season, pre and regular. Hansbrough hasn't hit a jumper since the first Bulls pre-season game. Vogel benches a player who gets a tech when his aggression could have sparked the team, I don't know if it's a David Stern thing, but when the entire team doesn't give a **** when being down 15, I don't see the need to sit a player who actually cares. Vogel's substitutions seem to be interesting, Paul George comes out way too soon even when he's scoring well which stalls the offense at the beginning of the game. We have too many scoring options that are inconsistent, we need to stick to a couple guys more often when they are hot early in the game and find other ways to get the guys involved, otherwise we just ice those that are playing well. Leaving extremely good shooters wide open and continuing to play a defense that obviously doesn't work, not once, not twice, but three times.
Last edited by Bird Fan; 01-06-2012 at 10:09 AM.
not so much a concern as a question or two.
is tyler being too aggressive on his defensive and/or missing his rotations? it seems like he is late getting back or rotating, but not sure who is at fault.
re: george hill
is GH a PG or just a guy that can play the point for a couple of minutes. to me, it looks the latter, but i'm not sure. if he is not a PG, then AJ or lance needs to get some extra minutes.
My biggest concern is the sanity of the posters on PD, it is becoming scary to read, they want to get rid of all players, and seem all close to suicidal, perhaps we change the board to knitting club?
So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.
If you've done 6 impossible things today?
Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!
There are liabilities in every Pacers players game, but it's gone over the top of late. What I have noticed lately is the constant bickering between certain posters. It gets so bad that threads get hijacked to the point of losing what the threads intent was. I've never seen it like this in the almost 4 years I've been a PD member or the previous years I lurked on PD. It's just getting ridiculously absurd.
Not much. We look very sloppy, especially on the offensive end... but that's kinda expected considering the lockout.
Oh, maybe how casual PG is with the ball.
What kind of board would this be if everyone agreed with each other all the time? Besides extremely boring, of course.