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Thread: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

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    Default After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Sorry not sure how to make this a poll, and without freaking out just wonder what people feel is their biggest concerns with the Pacers after the first week?

    For me it is : Lack of a player who can get his shot off against most defenders off isolation. Jammal Crawford would have been great, especially in the playoffs

    Coaching, although I like Vogel and think he is a very good motivator and will get better with x and o's with time, I think he will be outcoached at times , especially relating to in game adjustments. An example with this is last night when he implemented the zone defense. Now I applaud trying something new, but he should have known it would have been more effective had Wade played, but with James Jones a solid 3pt shooter, he should have abanded that philosphy much sooner

    Curious as to what others opinions are. This is not a "The sky is falling " thread, becuase even the Thunder or Heat could answer the same questions
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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Random Thoughts:

    Crawford would have been huge for us in regards to his ability to create his own looks. Lacking this kind of player on top of our teamplay issues is brutal offensively.

    My biggest concerns are the overall disjointedness they display as a team; not much is fluid or consistent.

    The decision making and teamplay/passing of Granger and Hansbrough really concerns me, particularly Danny because of his role and status on the team.

    Roy continues to make some soft layup attempts that I hate.

    Paul continues to make VERY casual passes and dribble moves, which I really worry about. He also sometimes could be trying to dunk the ball but, like Roy, opts for soft layups instead.

    Darren consistently not being able to keep his man on the perimeter concerns me.

    Lance's inability to hit a shot concerns me.

    Right now there are few things I count on game in and game out, even in the "everyone will have ups and downs" sort of way.

    I pretty much know what I'm going to get with David West, Dahntay Jones, Lou Amundson, and surprisingly I may even start adding Darren Collison to this group, even if it doesn't always work out well, but after those guys? Well.... it's kind of scary in that regard, which is what probably bothers me the most.

    George Hill may sneak in there, but after him I never know which Danny Granger is going to show up, which Paul George is going to show up, which Roy Hibbert will show up, or which Tyler Hansbrough will show up. I never count on Lance for anything. At least Jeff would add to my "know what to expect" group when he gets back, but he'll never be THAT important on most nights, so that's of small comfort.

    Also, it scares me that so many guys need so much coaching/teaching to get where they need to be, and this is just the worst set of circumstances possible to address those issues because of the lockout and the condensed schedule.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Roy continues to make some soft layup attempts that I hate.

    Paul continues to make VERY casual passes and dribble moves, which I really worry about. He also sometimes could be trying to dunk the ball but, like Roy, opts for soft layups instead.
    Maybe Granger suggests lay ups to his teammates? I remember reading that DG prefers to lay it in rather than thunder dunks to preserve his knees/body so he won't have a T-Mac breakdown.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Very well written, It would be kind of interesting to revisit these issues in say a month and see if they have changed for the better or worse or still the same
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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    You know the sad thing is that before the season, I really took 2 things for granted:
    1)Danny Granger would be Danny Granger
    2)We had a lot of depth. And a lot of depth

    So far neither has really proved to be true.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Quote Originally Posted by billbradley View Post
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    Maybe Granger suggests lay ups to his teammates? I remember reading that DG prefers to lay it in rather than thunder dunks to preserve his knees/body so he won't have a T-Mac breakdown.
    I could understand that for players who making running, high-jumping dunks like wings and guards and some forwards, but not a center like Roy. Dude barely has to jump to throw it down, and it's almost always going to be with one or no steps. Just slam the ****ing ball.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    That things won't change.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    _ Danny Granger sucking

    _ Tyler Hansbrough sucking

    _ No offensive system

    _ Not having a point guard that can create shots for others.

    _ Dwest sucking

    _ A defensive system but not enough defenders to implement the system, 4 out of 5 starters are not that good defenders.



    This are my concerns for now.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I could understand that for players who making running, high-jumping dunks like wings and guards and some forwards, but not a center like Roy. Dude barely has to jump to throw it down, and it's almost always going to be with one or no steps. Just slam the ****ing ball.
    Wow

    Hicks is really mad

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    _ Danny Granger sucking

    _ Tyler Hansbrough sucking

    _ No offensive system

    _ Not having a point guard that can create shots for others.

    _ Dwest sucking

    _ A defensive system but not enough defenders to implement the system, 4 out of 5 starters are not that good defenders.



    This are my concerns for now.
    you forgot the ball boy and his pechlance for not moving quickly enough off the court

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    I'm not overly worried yet. I do hope that over the next few games guys start to settle into their roles and embrace them. I'm still waiting for Hibbert to take that next step. His stat line looks pretty solid, but he still struggles to get position for a guy that's 7' 2" and 278 lbs. I think what we're witnessing is a young team dealing high expectations for the first time and lack of practice time.


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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    I just want to see open shots being made.. Right now it seems like PG is really the only one knocking down open shots.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    My main worry right now has been getting out on fast breaks and lack of penetration on offense. I am happy with how we have played so far and I think as the players get more and more familiar to each other it will improve.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Passing and dribbling. Dahntay may be the poster boy for this, but pretty much all of our perimeter guys get tunnel vision and don't pass as a team. Granger and George's handles didn't get any better, so we don't have a guy that can consistently break guys down off the dribble. Collison has his moments, but he's not a great passer for the position and due to his size, struggles to always finish. Maybe as George Hill gets more comfortable, he's the guy?

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    _ Dwest sucking
    DWest hasnt been "sucking" imo. He had one pretty rough game, as well as the entire team for that matter sans Hibbert. I wouldnt call his clutch runner vs Toronto or the intangibles he has brought to the team "sucking". Plus the dude is rounding his way into basketball shape and coming off a significant knee injury. Just because you are not a fan of his and have some kind of strange biased against him doesnt mean he has been sucking. He clearly has been a bright spot and brings something this team has desperately needed.

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    Overall talent and Point Guard play.

    Bird appears to be trying to build a balanced team in the Detroit mode - one without superstar talent. IMO, our overall talent level at the starting positions is nowhere near the quality of the Pistons teams. The Pacers appear to have great depth because there is not a huge drop off from starter to backup. That is not because the bench is great -it's because the starters are mediocre.

    Bird has also continued to neglect the PG position. IMO, a team that lacks a superstar 2guard absolutely needs very good PG play to be truly competitive. The pacers don't have a superstar 2guard and they have very mediocre PGs. That will continue to lead to a mediocre team.

    Basically, IMO, the best way to win is get superstar talent. The second way to win is to have very good PG play. This team has neither.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Danny is my biggest concern. I'm not sure who's going to agree with me, but I think Danny is our most important player... And there are 2 reasons for it:

    1. We all know that when Granger scores well we usually win. by "scores well" I mean his ~20 ppg, above (his) average FG, and good all around stats (rebounds, blocks, steals..). There's an easy way to prove it and that's looking at Granger's average numbers during wins and during losses. (I think NBA.com can show it)
    2. If Granger doesn't improve soon, then our team is going to be bad and may even miss the playoffs. And if we miss the playoffs, And Granger plays bad, we're just going to be stuck with his contract. really bad scenario: Bad team, bad contract, bad situation.

    If Danny is going to start hitting his shots, we're going to be the good team we're supposed to be. If he doesn't and continues his "FG% lowered each year" then it's bad news for us

    My other concern, which is kinda related to Danny, is our overall low FG% as a team. Danny takes the most shots and seems to be missing, which greatly affects our FG%, but it seems many of our main guys don't shoot that well also. FG% for them: D.West is 40%, Tyler 35%, Hill 38%. Roy, Paul and Collison have acceptable FG%. I hope that once Danny, West or Tyler start hitting their shots it would open the game for us and allow other guys score easier.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Everything.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    The offensive gameplan and players.

    The plan is limited, not very challenging to defenses, and cohesive about 35% of the time. These limits are making for few quality shots and a lower FG%.

    This includes the inability to create off of Danny at all. His driving skills are very poor and show no sign or ability to gain an advantage out of them.

    Roy is not getting great post position or working well with it when he does get it much of the time. He does have a few nice, reliable moves and if he is crisp but in control he can get into an opponent for 12-14 points using them. This would then generate the rest of his offense and open up lots of secondary scoring for other players.


    And then the PnR that's being hedged hard. The defenses are showing hard on this, giving massive floor space up, but the Pacers have been unable (especially DC) to take advantage of it. They can't seem to find or setup passing lanes. Returning to the roll man is non-existant and they've resorted to ball rotation back to the other side of the top of the key. But even there teams are starting to read it and that's a juicy pick for a layup the other way when they jump it.


    I've seen some good PnPop or minor inside-out game to the wings where you get a mid jumper for West or Tyler and a decent set of Pick and Slips that look good.

    Ironically though the PnSlip with Lou last night (the dunk) showed how bad things are. They liked the success so much they tried to go right back to it the very next trip, Miami was all over it and it fell apart. It was like the Pacers found gold and predictably went running right back to it, thrilled to have found an attack point.


    When they go into sets I see lots of two man variations and some posting, both high and low, but it looks like it doesn't go much deeper than the initial move which is then quickly swallowed up. Teams seem to recognize this and we've seen lots of hard double teams on the ball because of it.

    They know there will be no 3rd or 4th stage to the play so they just clamp down at stage 1 or 2 and smother it out.



    DC/West needs to be a better PnR (esp DCs part of it). We have to have the Tyler PnPop cranking. We have to have 7-8 possessions in the first half that go cleanly through the low post, even if that's the kick out from the double. We can not let Danny create any of the offense off his own dribble drive. And someone needs to get in Paul's ear about staying focused.

    I feel like Hill has shown a good sense for offensive creation so that might be hopeful.


    But as a team these guys just look like they have no sense of where the points might come from on the next possession, meaning the attack point not the eventual scorer.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    George vs Danny on creation. Paul is silky at times and has the skills to split guys or even create space on a dribble move. His problem is he gets so casual about stuff and shows no regard for protecting the ball. I think he even got disrupted last night trying to throw an entry pass.

    Danny does not have these moves. He can not throw fakes at average SFs and get them to bite so hard that he'll have the clear path to the lane. He forces it and on some nights gets favorable (maybe questionable) calls that get him to the line. But his FG% is down so much because he's not able to create quality looks for himself.



    I'm not favoring one guy over the other with that, both things are issues. But there is no way IMO that Danny is ever going to be drastically different when it comes to dribble creation at this point. His 4-5 year window of adding things to his game is closed, and regardless older vets don't add nasty quick snap backs that break ankles and create 5 feet of shooting space.

    When Danny drives he's head-down bulldozing.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    I'd just like to see some faster and more consistent ball movement. When they've moved the ball well, it creates good shots and our postups are more successful because the defense has been moved around.

    When we go to the primary option, which draws multiple defenders, then just force something up, we turning it over or putting up a bad shot.

    The PGs don't seem to where to offense is meant to go. There seems to be a lot of dribbling around but going nowhere, then we get to the first option when the shot clock is down to <10secs.
    Last edited by skyfire; 01-05-2012 at 09:17 PM.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Sorry for a third, but to counter the downer post which was only due to the topic, I do like what Vogel is trying to do and how he's rotating the players in general. I can see how he's trying to get things interacting and that he wants to be an inside-out team with lots of PnR action.

    The roster balance is sound, the concepts are sound. They're just too basic right now and not being executed as well as a team that is relying on balance instead of a superstar needs to be executing them.


    But it CAN WORK with this group. They do have solid diversity of talents.



    Quote Originally Posted by skyfire View Post
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    I'd just like to see some faster and more consistent ball movement. When they've moved the ball well, it creates good shots and our postups are more successful because we the defense has been moved around.

    When we go to the primary option, which draws multiple defenders, then just force something up, we turning it over or putting up a bad shot.

    The PGs don't seem to where to offense is meant to go. There seems to be a lot of dribbling around but going nowhere, then we get to the first option when the shot clock is down to <10secs.
    I think this is all a by-product of what I'm talking about. I don't think there is much after that initial attack point which is why shots go up and things break down. You can see opportunities that might be taken but the team as a group doesn't seem to anticipate them at this point.

    And has been true even in the wins. This isn't a sour grapes thing. To me the NJ game looked as bad as the Miami game on the offensive end.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-05-2012 at 09:18 PM.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    5 games is too soon to measure this team. My concerns right now are scoring in the paint, and passing.
    I do think everyone is being a little critical over Danny while West seems to get a free pass. I'm happy to have West and I expect him to improve as he continues to recover but right now he's not exactly the all star pf that he was. Just like Danny West is an x all star, and he makes almost as much money. Danny puts up 15 and 5 boards yet he sucks because he isn't leading this team past the Heat. West puts up 11 and 7 boards and he can do no wrong. Danny's shot isn't falling but I expect that to turn around in the next few games. He'll end up averaging at least 18 ppg. If West could improve to this point we might be real contenders but West has a longer way to go.

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Sorry for a third, but to counter the downer post which was only due to the topic, I do like what Vogel is trying to do and how he's rotating the players in general. I can see how he's trying to get things interacting and that he wants to be an inside-out team with lots of PnR action.

    The roster balance is sound, the concepts are sound. They're just too basic right now and not being executed as well as a team that is relying on balance instead of a superstar needs to be executing them.


    But it CAN WORK with this group. They do have solid diversity of talents.

    I think this is all a by-product of what I'm talking about. I don't think there is much after that initial attack point which is why shots go up and things break down. You can see opportunities that might be taken but the team as a group doesn't seem to anticipate them at this point.

    And has been true even in the wins. This isn't a sour grapes thing. To me the NJ game looked as bad as the Miami game on the offensive end.
    So, how do you see the team developing a passing game to facilitate a more complex finish to plays to overcome the opposing defenses? What should we look for to see if this is progressing?

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    Default Re: After 5 games what are your biggest concerns?

    Why are people on here so negative all the time?
    In 49 states it's just basketball, but this is Indiana!

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